Gammons on ESPNEWS

[ZZ Thorn]

I would argue that the Cubs must upgrade at least 2 of the following 3 positions, if not all 3: LF, CF and SS. A SS upgrade is almost impossible outside the organization. Our best hope there is that Dusty lets Cedeno play and/or Nomar comes back strong for the final 2 months. Both are improbable. In terms of what's available then, I would say priority has to be CF and LF. A Kotsay acquisition definitely addresses CF. But what to do in LF then? Murton might be the dark horse here. I still like the idea of getting Stairs.

 

I agree: we'll never find an SS this year, have to go with Perez/Cedeno, preferably more of the latter. Maybe Nomar will come back....

 

We definitely have to do something at the OF then, something that brings in a Kotsay-type hitter somewhere. Hey, let's bring in Kotsay! He's a Kotsay-type hitter.

 

So if Corey stays or goes, I'm fine with either. Corey/Perez hitting 7-8 is fine with me, and I'd rather have Corey in LF than have Holla/Dubois there. If we trade Corey, Holla and Dubois, and upgrade in LF (as well as CF with Kotsay) I'd be fine with that too.

 

But we need a Kotsay-type hitter, preferably a leadoff hitter, and it seems best to find one who plays OF.

[dime]

ben grieve needs to go to the AL where he can rot on the bench, in the NL roster spots are too important to give to a guy who has 2 outcomes: called 3rd strike or base on balls.

 

remember warren newsom? ben grieve's like him, but not as good.

[ZZ Thorn]

Grieve sucks.

 

That may be, but do you really think he's worse than Macias? I mean that's what were talking about here. Nobody is claiming that Grieve is some outstanding player. The point is, he's better than Macias. As is Kelton for that matter. It seems fairly obvious to me.

 

But that's a different point than the fact that Grieve sucks - Macias sucks too, but Grive is not a big upgrade over Macias to me. Things like attitude, versatility, yes, even body-language, all these things count to the guys on the field.

 

Is Grieve better than Macias, yes, but not by a significant amount IMHO and he still definitely sucks. Grieve can't even hit in AAA -all he can do is not make contact. All Macias can do is provide defensive versatility and that's more useful out of your 25th man to me.

[goonys evil twin]

Grieve sucks.

 

That may be, but do you really think he's worse than Macias? I mean that's what were talking about here. Nobody is claiming that Grieve is some outstanding player. The point is, he's better than Macias. As is Kelton for that matter. It seems fairly obvious to me.

 

But that's a different point than the fact that Grieve sucks - Macias sucks too, but Grive is not a big upgrade over Macias to me. Things like attitude, versatility, yes, even body-language, all these things count to the guys on the field.

 

Is Grieve better than Macias, yes, but not by a significant amount IMHO and he still definitely sucks. Grieve can't even hit in AAA -all he can do is not make contact. All Macias can do is provide defensive versatility and that's more useful out of your 25th man to me.

 

He can't hit in AAA?

.248 .365 .523

 

Body language? We're judging who the worthy players are now on body language. Wow, talk about grasping for straws.

[CubinNY]

Body language? We're judging who the worthy players are now on body language. Wow, talk about grasping for straws.

 

No, he's just trying to take up for oldcubsfan in the ridiculus argument department. The guy loves to play the devil's advocate. The best thing to do is ignore his posts.

Edited July 7, 2005 by CubinNY

[ZZ Thorn]

Grieve sucks.

 

That may be, but do you really think he's worse than Macias? I mean that's what were talking about here. Nobody is claiming that Grieve is some outstanding player. The point is, he's better than Macias. As is Kelton for that matter. It seems fairly obvious to me.

 

But that's a different point than the fact that Grieve sucks - Macias sucks too, but Grive is not a big upgrade over Macias to me. Things like attitude, versatility, yes, even body-language, all these things count to the guys on the field.

 

Is Grieve better than Macias, yes, but not by a significant amount IMHO and he still definitely sucks. Grieve can't even hit in AAA -all he can do is not make contact. All Macias can do is provide defensive versatility and that's more useful out of your 25th man to me.

 

He can't hit in AAA?

.248 .365 .523

 

Body language? We're judging who the worthy players are now on body language. Wow, talk about grasping for straws.

 

Hardly. See, someone who's called up has to play in the real world, not in the airless world of stats. That means he has to fit in with the team, he has to not be an aggravation, and as the last man off the bench he can't be a sulker who brings the team down, he has to ...have good body language. If the new 25th man thinks the team revolves around him, then I'd stay with the old 25th man. This is the 25th man after all.

[BigbadB]

Grieve sucks.

 

That may be, but do you really think he's worse than Macias? I mean that's what were talking about here. Nobody is claiming that Grieve is some outstanding player. The point is, he's better than Macias. As is Kelton for that matter. It seems fairly obvious to me.

 

But that's a different point than the fact that Grieve sucks - Macias sucks too, but Grive is not a big upgrade over Macias to me. Things like attitude, versatility, yes, even body-language, all these things count to the guys on the field.

 

Is Grieve better than Macias, yes, but not by a significant amount IMHO and he still definitely sucks. Grieve can't even hit in AAA -all he can do is not make contact. All Macias can do is provide defensive versatility and that's more useful out of your 25th man to me.

 

You are missing the point. As Sporrer recently pointed out, this is not a replace Macias with Grieve deal. Send down the extra pitcher and bring up Grieve. Grieve could be used as trade fodder or could provide extra punch off the bench.

 

Some of you are focusing only on Grieve's current AVG, then stating he can't even hit minor league pitching. He has 12 HR's, which means he can hit. He also has good plate patience, something the Cubs offense lacks in the worst way. These are not horrible things, regardless of how passionately you dislike the BB.

 

I will once again ask you all how many times we have watched our own team walk a guy at the beginning of an inning, and how many times have we watched the guy come around and score? Seems like it happens every time. May not seem like much, but how many 1 run games have we lost this year? How many of those games might have had a different outcome if we had a guy who showed a little more patience at the plate, drew an early inning walk, and came around to score?

 

No one is saying Grieve is the savior of this team. He would just be another bat off the bench, the second biggest weakness this team currently has behind a weak hitting offense in the everyday line up.

 

This offense needs all the help it can get. Dusty doesn't trust Dubois or Cedeno in any type of role, so bring up a veteran that can provide a little pop off the bench.

 

There are no guys who will provide high AVG, high OBP and high OPS off the bench. If they had all that, they'd be playing everyday. While Hollandsworth is playing everyday, we need a comparable bat to Hollandsworth to fill in off the bench.

 

And finally, Grieve is not replacing Macias. He's replacing a seldom used arm in the pen.

[JC]

I agree with you, BBB. But, assuming the opposite that Grieve is meant to replace Macias, what is the harm? For Pete's sake, ZZ concedes that Grieve is better, though marginally. Well, if I can make the team better without giving up something, then I would do it. If a marginally better player cost something by way of a trade or waiver claim, then I don't see the point in the move. But, as I said, since Grieve would cost nothing, it is idiotic not to make that move. (Of course, you lose the "versatility" of Macias in the field, but that versatility has meant little to nothing in light of the state of the roster.)

[BigbadB]

I agree with you, BBB. But, assuming the opposite that Grieve is meant to replace Macias, what is the harm? For Pete's sake, ZZ concedes that Grieve is better, though marginally. Well, if I can make the team better without giving up something, then I would do it. If a marginally better player cost something by way of a trade or waiver claim, then I don't see the point in the move. But, as I said, since Grieve would cost nothing, it is idiotic not to make that move. (Of course, you lose the "versatility" of Macias in the field, but that versatility has meant little to nothing in light of the state of the roster.)

 

But, then again, I'm also a believer that you don't offer a guy hitting .377 in AAA a season ticket sitting right next to Dusty Baker to watch the Cubs and Neifi Perez play baseball.

 

Either leave him in AAA, or let him show what he can do in the big show.

[badger1679666666]

this is definitely heading toward rants.

 

and how can ANYONE consider Macias a better option than Grieve?

 

I dunno, his name is oldcubsfan?

[ZZ Thorn]

Can we keep this thread about Kotsay? The "I hate Macias" posts have been done to death.

 

I wish Hendry would get Kotsay ASAP - we can sure use him.

 

If it goes down, I predict we get Kotsay for Dubois, Mitre and a good pitching prospect, like say Nolasco. Or maybe they go all pitching and take Leicester and leave Doobs. Either way, I bet we lose 2 ML ready players and a lesser, 'potential' heavy minor leaguer.

 

Would y'all give up Hill or Welly for him? I'd rather not, and I bet this is where the haggling is centered: who's the centerpiece guy they get in return.

[BigbadB]

Can we keep this thread about Kotsay? The "I hate Macias" posts have been done to death.

 

I wish Hendry would get Kotsay ASAP - we can sure use him.

 

If it goes down, I predict we get Kotsay for Dubois, Mitre and a good pitching prospect, like say Nolasco. Or maybe they go all pitching and take Leicester and leave Doobs. Either way, I bet we lose 2 ML ready players and a lesser, 'potential' heavy minor leaguer.

 

Would y'all give up Hill or Welly for him? I'd rather not, and I bet this is where the haggling is centered: who's the centerpiece guy they get in return.

 

Wouldn't any deal for Kotsay be centered around moving Patterson?

 

What will you do with Patterson if he isn't in a deal for Kotsay?

 

No, Rich Hill would not be involved in a deal for Kotsay if Mitre is already part of the deal. He's not cheap, and he'll most likely only be a rental. Isn't he a free agent at the end of the year?

 

I'm not even dealing for Kotsay at this point, personally. I'd rather they go into sell mode at this point and hope that the team can start healthy and strong for next year. I'm not talking fire sale, but rather sensible trades that sell off veterans who are not part of the long term picture of this team. Maybe smart moves that will help the team next year will also help the team for the rest of this year as well.

 

In other words, I would not trade for a rental guy. Period.

[imb]

I love how some people think that anyone who thinks Grieve is an upgrade over Macias are "stat-heads that think that stats are the end all be all", and then go on to judge a player on something like body language.

[ltb]

I love how some people think that anyone who thinks Grieve is an upgrade over Macias are "stat-heads that think that stats are the end all be all", and then go on to judge a player on something like body language.

 

but dude walks don't matter, macias can play every position!

[ZZ Thorn]

Can we keep this thread about Kotsay? The "I hate Macias" posts have been done to death.

 

I wish Hendry would get Kotsay ASAP - we can sure use him.

 

If it goes down, I predict we get Kotsay for Dubois, Mitre and a good pitching prospect, like say Nolasco. Or maybe they go all pitching and take Leicester and leave Doobs. Either way, I bet we lose 2 ML ready players and a lesser, 'potential' heavy minor leaguer.

 

Would y'all give up Hill or Welly for him? I'd rather not, and I bet this is where the haggling is centered: who's the centerpiece guy they get in return.

 

Wouldn't any deal for Kotsay be centered around moving Patterson?

 

What will you do with Patterson if he isn't in a deal for Kotsay?

 

No, Rich Hill would not be involved in a deal for Kotsay if Mitre is already part of the deal. He's not cheap, and he'll most likely only be a rental. Isn't he a free agent at the end of the year?

 

I'm not even dealing for Kotsay at this point, personally. I'd rather they go into sell mode at this point and hope that the team can start healthy and strong for next year. I'm not talking fire sale, but rather sensible trades that sell off veterans who are not part of the long term picture of this team. Maybe smart moves that will help the team next year will also help the team for the rest of this year as well.

 

In other words, I would not trade for a rental guy. Period.

 

Kotsay has an option for next year at $7 mil, as I recall. So we'd have him at least thru 2006, then Pie should be ready if we don't retain him. Yeah he's not cheap, but there are very few legitimate leadoff hitters to be had out there. Beane is trying to work out an extension with him and if Kotsay's traded it will probably be close to the deadline.

 

I don't wanna see them do a white flag - maybe if we keep slumping all thru mid and late July....

 

CP may be part of a deal, but he doesn't have to be. I'd have said that he'd be too expensive for Oakland in March, but he can't be demanding too much as a FA now. LOL, CP is the anti-Moneyball player, so I'd be surprised if they took him. I figure Oakland needs a lot of pitching.

[SCCubbieFAN]

I wish Hendry would get Kotsay ASAP - we can sure use him.

 

who's the centerpiece guy they get in return.

 

I think it would be Patterson. (plus at least 2 arms)

[ZZ Thorn]

I wish Hendry would get Kotsay ASAP - we can sure use him.

 

who's the centerpiece guy they get in return.

 

I think it would be Patterson. (plus at least 2 arms)

 

Well, I'd definitely give up Patterson. I don't think he can succeed here anymore and I know Kotsay is the leadoff hitter we've needed since Lofton.

[TruffleShuffle]

I wish Hendry would get Kotsay ASAP - we can sure use him.

 

who's the centerpiece guy they get in return.

 

I think it would be Patterson. (plus at least 2 arms)

 

For some reason, Patterson doesn't strike me as a Billy Beane type of player.

[ZZ Thorn]

I wish Hendry would get Kotsay ASAP - we can sure use him.

 

who's the centerpiece guy they get in return.

 

I think it would be Patterson. (plus at least 2 arms)

 

For some reason, Patterson doesn't strike me as a Billy Beane type of player.

 

That's what I said, but who plays CF for them? Bobby Kielty? I'd rather take my chances with CP.

[jtownie]

Per Rotoworld:

Peter Gammons told WEEI that he believes Jay Payton will be traded to Oakland, possibly for a reliever.

The A's already have Bobby Kielty and Eric Byrnes to play against lefties, so Payton only makes sense for Oakland if Mark Kotsay is a goner. The Red Sox would probably be pretty happy with either Kiko Calero or Jairo Garcia in return for Payton. Garcia seems the more likely acquisition

[BigbadB]

Can't Nick Swisher play center?

[hawkeyecub]

I think now we can see that Gammons was probably right on this one. Calling Greenberg up with Murton means it would likely have been Felix if he wasn't injured.