Dusty losing them?

[moorecg]

"Overhearing the interview at an adjoining locker, Aramis Ramirez offered his third base job to Hairston. Hairston laughed, although he did say he was willing to play left field if Baker was interested.

 

Baker is not interested, saying it was the most difficult outfield position to learn. Hairston said he played it last year in Baltimore and had no problem.

 

"Just because something is tough doesn't mean you run away from it," he said."

 

From Sullivan's colum, so take it for what its worth...but,

 

With Ramirez's comment, coupled with Hairston's outright plea to just let him play, could it be that a large part of the slump/skid is that the team is just tired of being sent out there with some of the best players on the bench every night and a lineup that makes absolutely no sense at all?

[kente777]

If the Cubs are gonna have a chance this year, Dusty has absolutely got to go.

 

I'm amazed at his arrogance, let alone his lack of game managing skills.

 

Ken

[Backtobanks]

If the Cubs are gonna have a chance this year, Dusty has absolutely got to go.

 

I'm amazed at his arrogance, let alone his lack of game managing skills.

 

Ken

 

Add to that his stubborness. If you're willing to try Patterson and Perez at leadoff, bench Patterson for Hairston, try Rusch, Mitre, and Williams as the 5th starters, etc. then why don't you give Cedeno a real shot at SS and hitting #1 or #2. At this point, what do we have to lose.

[JC]

The timing of Walker's comments last week along with Hairston's current complaints indicate to me that Dusty lost this team a while back. They will certainly rally around him and say all the right things when asked point blank, but it seems that some player frustration with Dusty is beginning to boil to the top.

[USSoccer]

It doesn't matter if the team is losing him. It matters how long Hendry feels he has to be loyal to his choice.

 

I do not want my team going in the tank, even if it means Baker's gone. I want them to make one more push at it. Add a player, and if it doesn't work, can him in November for underachieving 2 yars in a row with good players.

 

I just worry that if we do can him, it would come far too late to make a difference this season.

[frostwyrm]

Hairston is now officially trade bait.

[Chris]

The timing of Walker's comments last week along with Hairston's current complaints indicate to me that Dusty lost this team a while back. They will certainly rally around him and say all the right things when asked point blank, but it seems that some player frustration with Dusty is beginning to boil to the top.

 

Agreed. I just wonder how long it will take for the fans that attend the games at Wrigley to figure this out.

[Old Style Man]

"Overhearing the interview at an adjoining locker, Aramis Ramirez offered his third base job to Hairston. Hairston laughed, although he did say he was willing to play left field if Baker was interested.

 

Baker is not interested, saying it was the most difficult outfield position to learn. Hairston said he played it last year in Baltimore and had no problem.

 

"Just because something is tough doesn't mean you run away from it," he said."

 

From Sullivan's colum, so take it for what its worth...but,

 

With Ramirez's comment, coupled with Hairston's outright plea to just let him play, could it be that a large part of the slump/skid is that the team is just tired of being sent out there with some of the best players on the bench every night and a lineup that makes absolutely no sense at all?

 

Craig,

 

If Lee is hurt its irrelevent what Dusty does. As you know, I've been pretty defensive of Baker while others have been piling on. His refusal to play anybody but "his guys" and to change the lineup to anything that makes sense has made me change my mind, though. There is no excuse for not playing Cedeno at least a couple times a week at short and at the top of the order, and for not getting Hairston more at bats, whether in left or center field. Anybody paying attention realizes this, and that includes the players. Ramirez's and Hairston's comments make that clear. So, of course he is losing his players, and he has lost much of the fan base. I would think Dusty would get a clue while watching Atlanta, which has 3 rookies playing every day now, including Kelly Johnson, Betemit, and I believe Ryan Langerhans. These guys are playing instead of bad, washed up vets, and Atlanta is rollinig. Think the Cubs couldn't do the same with Cedeno and perhaps Murton? I'm to ticked off.

[BigbadB]

Atlanta went out and signed washed up vets in the offseason (Mondesi and Jordan). Mondesi was DFA'd on June 1st and Jordan has received less and less at bats each month this season. Meanwhile, Atlanta is now winning more with the kids than they did with the vets.

 

Sometimes you have to shake things up to make things happen.

 

Atlanta has lost Hampton, Hudson and Thompson from their starting staff. They have energized their team with youth. Not the bench, mind you. But, the starting line up. But, who would want to rip a page out of a notebook from a team that's only won 13 divisions in a row?

 

Bringing up Cedeno was a horrible idea if they weren't going to give him any playing time. Absolutely zero point in it. Let's see: Play everyday at Iowa, or a front row seat to watch Neifi Perez and the Cubs?

 

I doubt Cedeno is enjoying his stay. Meanwhile, rookies I had never heard of prior to this season are enjoying their first season in MLB.

[YearofDaCubs]

Atlanta went out and signed washed up vets in the offseason (Mondesi and Jordan). Mondesi was DFA'd on June 1st and Jordan has received less and less at bats each month this season. Meanwhile, Atlanta is now winning more with the kids than they did with the vets.

 

Sometimes you have to shake things up to make things happen.

 

Atlanta has lost Hampton, Hudson and Thompson from their starting staff. They have energized their team with youth. Not the bench, mind you. But, the starting line up. But, who would want to rip a page out of a notebook from a team that's only won 13 divisions in a row?

 

Bringing up Cedeno was a horrible idea if they weren't going to give him any playing time. Absolutely zero point in it. Let's see: Play everyday at Iowa, or a front row seat to watch Neifi Perez and the Cubs?

 

I doubt Cedeno is enjoying his stay. Meanwhile, rookies I had never heard of prior to this season are enjoying their first season in MLB.

That's the difference between and idiot like Dusty Baker as opposed to a good manager like Cox. I'm sure the GMs also have something to do with it as well.

[frostwyrm]

Atlanta went out and signed washed up vets in the offseason (Mondesi and Jordan). Mondesi was DFA'd on June 1st and Jordan has received less and less at bats each month this season. Meanwhile, Atlanta is now winning more with the kids than they did with the vets.

 

Sometimes you have to shake things up to make things happen.

 

Atlanta has lost Hampton, Hudson and Thompson from their starting staff. They have energized their team with youth. Not the bench, mind you. But, the starting line up. But, who would want to rip a page out of a notebook from a team that's only won 13 divisions in a row?

 

Bringing up Cedeno was a horrible idea if they weren't going to give him any playing time. Absolutely zero point in it. Let's see: Play everyday at Iowa, or a front row seat to watch Neifi Perez and the Cubs?

 

I doubt Cedeno is enjoying his stay. Meanwhile, rookies I had never heard of prior to this season are enjoying their first season in MLB.

 

After Smoltz we face 3 lefties in a row, so Ronny should finally see some time. As much as he's sat, there's no excuse not to start him in all 3 games. After watching this season I have come to despise the concept of calling up rookies just to face lefties.

[indifferent]

Atlanta went out and signed washed up vets in the offseason (Mondesi and Jordan). Mondesi was DFA'd on June 1st and Jordan has received less and less at bats each month this season. Meanwhile, Atlanta is now winning more with the kids than they did with the vets.

 

Sometimes you have to shake things up to make things happen.

 

Atlanta has lost Hampton, Hudson and Thompson from their starting staff. They have energized their team with youth. Not the bench, mind you. But, the starting line up. But, who would want to rip a page out of a notebook from a team that's only won 13 divisions in a row?

 

Bringing up Cedeno was a horrible idea if they weren't going to give him any playing time. Absolutely zero point in it. Let's see: Play everyday at Iowa, or a front row seat to watch Neifi Perez and the Cubs?

 

I doubt Cedeno is enjoying his stay. Meanwhile, rookies I had never heard of prior to this season are enjoying their first season in MLB.

 

After Smoltz we face 3 lefties in a row, so Ronny should finally see some time. As much as he's sat, there's no excuse not to start him in all 3 games. After watching this season I have come to despise the concept of calling up rookies just to face lefties.

 

Since when do you platoon your starting shortstop based on righty/lefty matchups? LF I can see, SS no. Injuries are the only reason Dusty still has his job.

[TheDude]

I normally defend Dusty Baker, because too often the criticism comes too quickly or without thought beyond today.

 

But right now I am pretty peeved myself. I feel like Dusty is more interested in protecting his reputation among the players than in winning each game. Right now, I don't care if Perez gets pissed for losing his starting job. He played his way into it in April, and has now played his way out of it.

 

But Dusty Baker refuses to acknowledge that Perez's hot streak was over, 6 weeks ago at least. None of the kids except the pitchers are gaining any confidence, because they basically get one or two shots to prove themselves and then their done.

 

Also, I don't agree with the comparison to Atlanta. They don't have the same budget and have no alternative but to turn to kids. It is a little far-fetched to give their management too much credit when their backs were up against the wall.

 

The one lone credit is that some bench nobody isn't getting the majority of PT over the kid. But it isn't like those kids are lighting up the scoreboard. Langerhans and Johnson have average to below average numbers for corner OFs (about the same as Dubois actually - just drawing more walks). Only Betemit and Orr have been better than expected.

Edited July 6, 2005 by TheDude

[halplm]

Atlanta went out and signed washed up vets in the offseason (Mondesi and Jordan). Mondesi was DFA'd on June 1st and Jordan has received less and less at bats each month this season. Meanwhile, Atlanta is now winning more with the kids than they did with the vets.

 

Sometimes you have to shake things up to make things happen.

 

Atlanta has lost Hampton, Hudson and Thompson from their starting staff. They have energized their team with youth. Not the bench, mind you. But, the starting line up. But, who would want to rip a page out of a notebook from a team that's only won 13 divisions in a row?

 

Bringing up Cedeno was a horrible idea if they weren't going to give him any playing time. Absolutely zero point in it. Let's see: Play everyday at Iowa, or a front row seat to watch Neifi Perez and the Cubs?

 

I doubt Cedeno is enjoying his stay. Meanwhile, rookies I had never heard of prior to this season are enjoying their first season in MLB.

 

After Smoltz we face 3 lefties in a row, so Ronny should finally see some time. As much as he's sat, there's no excuse not to start him in all 3 games. After watching this season I have come to despise the concept of calling up rookies just to face lefties.

 

Since when do you platoon your starting shortstop based on righty/lefty matchups? LF I can see, SS no. Injuries are the only reason Dusty still has his job.

 

Which is especially bad, because Dusty just doesn't know what too do to replace the starter he was going to have...

 

Injuries are his excuse, but a better manager could have won more with what we have in our system...

[TheDude]

Injuries are his excuse, but a better manager could have won more with what we have in our system...

Sorry but I just don't believe this. Maybe fans can feel better about the losses knowing that some effort to allow the future has taken place, but to state as fact that the team would have more wins just by replacing professional bench players with farm callups is very far-fetched.

[nolanwood]

I have defended Dusty as well - but I can't take it anymore.

 

He needs to go, or this team loaded with tons of talent will continue to suck.

[UMFan83]

When a player's manager has his players talking critically behind his back, he's pretty much lost them and needs to go

[halplm]

Injuries are his excuse, but a better manager could have won more with what we have in our system...

Sorry but I just don't believe this. Maybe fans can feel better about the losses knowing that some effort to allow the future has taken place, but to state as fact that the team would have more wins just by replacing professional bench players with farm callups is very far-fetched.

 

I don't mean replacing all of them. I was going to say "what we have on our team..." but I don't think several of the players on this team would BE on this team with another manager...

[dalgreen]

I have defended Dusty as well - but I can't take it anymore.

 

He needs to go, or this team loaded with tons of talent will continue to suck.

 

We're loaded with tons of talent? :scratch:

[OleMissCub]

he's not TRYING to lose his job is he?

[goonys evil twin]

I have defended Dusty as well - but I can't take it anymore.

 

He needs to go, or this team loaded with tons of talent will continue to suck.

 

We're loaded with tons of talent? :scratch:

 

I'd say there is tons of talent.

 

Productivity and talent are not he same thing. Some of the most talented players in the game aren't all that productive. They have physical gifts that allow them to do things others cannot, but they don't consistently utilize those talents in a productive manner. If you ask me, that defines the Cubs. Corey is talented as heck, just not productive. Zambrano, Prior, Wood, Lee, Ramirez, Dempster and Barrett have enough talent to measure up against the best in the game. They just don't all produce to their talent level on a consistent basis, or maximize their abilities.

[halplm]

I have defended Dusty as well - but I can't take it anymore.

 

He needs to go, or this team loaded with tons of talent will continue to suck.

 

We're loaded with tons of talent? :scratch:

 

I'd say there is tons of talent.

 

Productivity and talent are not he same thing. Some of the most talented players in the game aren't all that productive. They have physical gifts that allow them to do things others cannot, but they don't consistently utilize those talents in a productive manner. If you ask me, that defines the Cubs. Corey is talented as heck, just not productive. Zambrano, Prior, Wood, Lee, Ramirez, Dempster and Barrett have enough talent to measure up against the best in the game. They just don't all produce to their talent level on a consistent basis, or maximize their abilities.

 

Which is SUPPOSED to be what Baker is good at.

 

Although I've never seen it, and I watched him for years with the Giants.

[dalgreen]

I have defended Dusty as well - but I can't take it anymore.

 

He needs to go, or this team loaded with tons of talent will continue to suck.

 

We're loaded with tons of talent? :scratch:

 

I'd say there is tons of talent.

 

Productivity and talent are not he same thing. Some of the most talented players in the game aren't all that productive. They have physical gifts that allow them to do things others cannot, but they don't consistently utilize those talents in a productive manner. If you ask me, that defines the Cubs. Corey is talented as heck, just not productive. Zambrano, Prior, Wood, Lee, Ramirez, Dempster and Barrett have enough talent to measure up against the best in the game. They just don't all produce to their talent level on a consistent basis, or maximize their abilities.

 

8/25 = tons? And I don't think Barrett is talented. But I'll give you that one.

[goonys evil twin]

I have defended Dusty as well - but I can't take it anymore.

 

He needs to go, or this team loaded with tons of talent will continue to suck.

 

We're loaded with tons of talent? :scratch:

 

I'd say there is tons of talent.

 

Productivity and talent are not he same thing. Some of the most talented players in the game aren't all that productive. They have physical gifts that allow them to do things others cannot, but they don't consistently utilize those talents in a productive manner. If you ask me, that defines the Cubs. Corey is talented as heck, just not productive. Zambrano, Prior, Wood, Lee, Ramirez, Dempster and Barrett have enough talent to measure up against the best in the game. They just don't all produce to their talent level on a consistent basis, or maximize their abilities.

 

8/25 = tons? And I don't think Barrett is talented. But I'll give you that one.

 

You don't think Barrett is talented? I think he's incredibly talented. He's a great athlete capable of producing outstanding numbers for his position for sizable chunks at a time (April, May, July and August 2004, May 2005) he's just terribly inconsistent and at times appears clueless at the plate.

 

I don't think there are a lot of teams who have much more talent than the Cubs have. There are just several more teams that do a better job utilizing their talent. That's an organizational failure, from the players, to the coaches/instructors to the front office. Inefficiency defines this organization, and considering they are owned by a well respeced corporation, that's surprising. It's like in football, with the Patriots, vs a team like Washington. The Redskins are a terribly inefficient organization, while New England runs their ship like a high class fortune 500 company.

[Old Style Man]

Baker's situation really reminds me of Dick Jauron towards the end of the run. Jauron was loyal to his guy Shoop to a fault. He wasn't concerned about what was in the best interests of the Bears, the organization, or with his players. Similary, Dusty is loyal to his "guys" to a fault, stubbornly continuing to play guys who underperform, like Corey, Hollandsworth (I know, I know, he has been much better the last month or so), and Neifi, despite the fact that it is obviously not in the best interests of the Cubs organization, the fans, or the other players who only want to win. Plus, both Jauron and Dusty seem equally clueless when explaining what they are trying to do and what is going wrong.