Brett's take on Cubs finances

[SouthSideRyan]

The biggest question I have, which Brett didn't really get into, but Wittenmyer has somewhat.....Is why, if they were the only group willing to buy under these conditions, did they accept them? Would we STILL be in total limbo currently, with Zell still running things? Or would they have softened their stance and landed a bit more rough. It seems they got exactly what they wanted here(Trib/Zell).

 

In the grand scheme of things, so did Ricketts. He got the Cubs. But with a bit more patience, could he have had them under different circumstances that were more amenable to putting money back on to the field quicker? Would the price have gone up THAT dramatically, under normal sales conditions? If so, wouldn't it just cancel out quite a bit of the debt structure payments?

 

I mean, if you're servicing 30-45 mill in debt per year for a decade, would it have been worth it to someone to offer 500-600 mill more in a normal fashion after it was known nobody would bite under the conditions that went down. Maybe we just didn't have the right groups involved. We needed a "straight cash homie" buyer to emerge that just didn't.

 

I've brought it up before, but if they were the only buyer willing to do this, don't you think that's a huge trump card vs having to bid against 4 or 5 others (or whatever number it was)? and maybe they knew they didn't have the wherewithal to outbid those others on an even playing field. who knows? (certainly not me, if it isn't obvious)

 

They paid ~1/3 what Guggenheim did for the dodgers 3 years later on a true open market. My recollection is there were billion dollar bids being discussed for the cubs as well. Without the structuring as is, the ricketts don't own the cubs

[Cubswin11]

Was the deal structured the way it was simply because it was most important to Zell to maximize his tax advantages/savings/deferring profit on a sale or did the sale have to be structured a certain way due to Zell/Trib/Parent company being in bankruptcy?

[Guest]

Was the deal structured the way it was simply because it was most important to Zell to maximize his tax advantages/savings/deferring profit on a sale or did the sale have to be structured a certain way due to Zell/Trib/Parent company being in bankruptcy?

Yes. Cuban was on Howard Stern about a year after the sale and he basically said he walked away because of how the terms were presented to him.

 

If what Brett wrote is true, the Ricketts won't really own the team outright until 2019. Zell is a [expletive] genius. Evil genius.

[Cubswin11]

Was the deal structured the way it was simply because it was most important to Zell to maximize his tax advantages/savings/deferring profit on a sale or did the sale have to be structured a certain way due to Zell/Trib/Parent company being in bankruptcy?

Yes. Cuban was on Howard Stern about a year after the sale and he basically said he walked away because of how the terms were presented to him.

 

If what Brett wrote is true, the Ricketts won't really own the team outright until 2019. Zell is a [expletive] genius. Evil genius.

Yes, I get that. But were the terms what they were solely because it's what Zell wanted or were the terms what they were because he was under restrictions with how a deal could get done due to being in bankruptcy with the parent company?

[Elwood]

I'm fully with the thought that Ricketts anticipated just about everything breaking a different way.

 

-He expected the city to help finance renovations and expected them to allow them to do lost whatever they want with it.

-He expected cubs fans to show up no matter what crappy product was put on the field

-He expected Theo to be able to come in and make the team good almost instantly on spite of the financial restrictions he gave him.

 

And of course none of this to excuse his ownership. You enter into an agreement on really dumb assumptions then you don't get a pass, and you certainly don't get my benefit of the doubt going forward. For all I know this doofus is expecting the all prospect roster to make its debut some time in late 2015 helping to roll those savings into renovations and other things daddy won't pay for.

 

Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone could come to these conclusions.

 

You must lead a difficult life.

[Elwood]

Was the deal structured the way it was simply because it was most important to Zell to maximize his tax advantages/savings/deferring profit on a sale or did the sale have to be structured a certain way due to Zell/Trib/Parent company being in bankruptcy?

 

Because of that tremendous appreciation, when the Tribune Company sold the Cubs as part of its bankruptcy in 2008/2009, there was expected to be a healthy tax bite associated with the deal, leaving less money for creditors and, ultimately, the owners of the eventual reformed company.

 

Sounds like it was just some sneaky accounting to me.

[Guest]

Was the deal structured the way it was simply because it was most important to Zell to maximize his tax advantages/savings/deferring profit on a sale or did the sale have to be structured a certain way due to Zell/Trib/Parent company being in bankruptcy?

Yes. Cuban was on Howard Stern about a year after the sale and he basically said he walked away because of how the terms were presented to him.

 

If what Brett wrote is true, the Ricketts won't really own the team outright until 2019. Zell is a [expletive] genius. Evil genius.

Yes, I get that. But were the terms what they were solely because it's what Zell wanted or were the terms what they were because he was under restrictions with how a deal could get done due to being in bankruptcy with the parent company?

I don't think one thing has anything to do with the other. It was about Zell not paying windfall profits on the Cubs. Hell, he was trying to sell Wrigley separately.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm fully with the thought that Ricketts anticipated just about everything breaking a different way.

 

-He expected the city to help finance renovations and expected them to allow them to do lost whatever they want with it.

-He expected cubs fans to show up no matter what crappy product was put on the field

-He expected Theo to be able to come in and make the team good almost instantly on spite of the financial restrictions he gave him.

 

And of course none of this to excuse his ownership. You enter into an agreement on really dumb assumptions then you don't get a pass, and you certainly don't get my benefit of the doubt going forward. For all I know this doofus is expecting the all prospect roster to make its debut some time in late 2015 helping to roll those savings into renovations and other things daddy won't pay for.

 

Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone could come to these conclusions.

 

You must lead a difficult life.

 

Well the first item is essentially a fact so it can't be THAT unfathomable

 

And as always I'll never understand why having a viewpoint on the cubs that is negative speaks to anything about a persons life. It's called "goony money" for a reason

[Soul]

I'm fully with the thought that Ricketts anticipated just about everything breaking a different way.

 

-He expected the city to help finance renovations and expected them to allow them to do lost whatever they want with it.

-He expected cubs fans to show up no matter what crappy product was put on the field

-He expected Theo to be able to come in and make the team good almost instantly on spite of the financial restrictions he gave him.

 

And of course none of this to excuse his ownership. You enter into an agreement on really dumb assumptions then you don't get a pass, and you certainly don't get my benefit of the doubt going forward. For all I know this doofus is expecting the all prospect roster to make its debut some time in late 2015 helping to roll those savings into renovations and other things daddy won't pay for.

 

Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone could come to these conclusions.

 

You must lead a difficult life.

 

Why go there?

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm fully with the thought that Ricketts anticipated just about everything breaking a different way.

 

-He expected the city to help finance renovations and expected them to allow them to do lost whatever they want with it.

-He expected cubs fans to show up no matter what crappy product was put on the field

-He expected Theo to be able to come in and make the team good almost instantly on spite of the financial restrictions he gave him.

 

And of course none of this to excuse his ownership. You enter into an agreement on really dumb assumptions then you don't get a pass, and you certainly don't get my benefit of the doubt going forward. For all I know this doofus is expecting the all prospect roster to make its debut some time in late 2015 helping to roll those savings into renovations and other things daddy won't pay for.

 

Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone could come to these conclusions.

 

You must lead a difficult life.

 

Well the first item is essentially a fact so it can't be THAT unfathomable

 

And as always I'll never understand why having a viewpoint on the cubs that is negative speaks to anything about a persons life. It's called "goony money" for a reason

 

Leave me out of this.

[mul21]

I'm fully with the thought that Ricketts anticipated just about everything breaking a different way.

 

-He expected the city to help finance renovations and expected them to allow them to do lost whatever they want with it.

-He expected cubs fans to show up no matter what crappy product was put on the field

-He expected Theo to be able to come in and make the team good almost instantly on spite of the financial restrictions he gave him.

 

And of course none of this to excuse his ownership. You enter into an agreement on really dumb assumptions then you don't get a pass, and you certainly don't get my benefit of the doubt going forward. For all I know this doofus is expecting the all prospect roster to make its debut some time in late 2015 helping to roll those savings into renovations and other things daddy won't pay for.

 

Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone could come to these conclusions.

 

You must lead a difficult life.

 

Well the first item is essentially a fact so it can't be THAT unfathomable

 

And as always I'll never understand why having a viewpoint on the cubs that is negative speaks to anything about a persons life. It's called "goony money" for a reason

 

#2 is the only one of those that's even questionably believable, and he may well have believed that based on his own fandom. The rules also changed pretty significantly w/r/t the draft and kept Theo et al from working their particular brand of magic as they had previously.

[Guest]

#1 is literally a fact. What are you talking about?

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, how is anyone at this point denying that they didn't expect to get some kind of city and/or state assistance? Plus they clearly expected to have been able to get underway with the major renovations and advertising changes and the like based on their own deadlines that they have no missed several times over. It's not a stretch at all to think that Ricketts miscalculated their hand badly.

[Guest]

Expecting is not the same thing as attempting/due diligence. It may well have been the former, but there's little that saying it's the latter doesn't explain either.

[mul21]

#1 is literally a fact. What are you talking about?

 

Me? I'm agreeing with SSR. Though that may be poorly conveyed in that post.

[Sammy Sofa]

Expecting is not the same thing as attempting/due diligence. It may well have been the former, but there's little that saying it's the latter doesn't explain either.

 

I'm honestly completely lost with what you're trying to say here.

[SouthSideRyan]

#1 is literally a fact. What are you talking about?

 

Me? I'm agreeing with SSR. Though that may be poorly conveyed in that post.

 

I think you missed a "not" in your original post

[SouthSideRyan]

Expecting is not the same thing as attempting/due diligence. It may well have been the former, but there's little that saying it's the latter doesn't explain either.

 

I'm honestly completely lost with what you're trying to say here.

 

Took me a few readings, probably the most overly worst thing I've ever seen tt post. Think he's saying that it's not a guarantee that they expected it rather than just taking a shot at it. He must've been watching football at the time

[Sammy Sofa]

Expecting is not the same thing as attempting/due diligence. It may well have been the former, but there's little that saying it's the latter doesn't explain either.

 

I'm honestly completely lost with what you're trying to say here.

 

Took me a few readings, probably the most overly worst thing I've ever seen tt post. Think he's saying that it's not a guarantee that they expected it rather than just taking a shot at it. He must've been watching football at the time

 

That I agree with; I've stated several times I doubt the Ricketts were hinging on getting outside money, but I do think it was something they were really hoping to get, and their overall dealings with the city seem to a betray a...naivety (if that's the right word) in what they were hoping to get done. I agree that the answer is more of a middle ground, but it's still a pretty shitty place to be, whether they actually tried or were just expecting it.

[Sammy Sofa]

He must've been watching football at the time

 

Nice.

 

Or maybe he was in a bar.

[Guest]

Expecting is not the same thing as attempting/due diligence. It may well have been the former, but there's little that saying it's the latter doesn't explain either.

 

I'm honestly completely lost with what you're trying to say here.

 

Took me a few readings, probably the most overly worst thing I've ever seen tt post. Think he's saying that it's not a guarantee that they expected it rather than just taking a shot at it. He must've been watching football at the time

 

Right. "Expecting" carries the connotation that not getting it put them behind schedule or caught them by surprise. Maybe that was the case, but anyone in that position would be crazy not to at least try to get public money. The delays that have come after that are due to the abject lunacy of the rooftops and Tunney, which I doubt anyone could speed up unless a different owner gave zero craps about a lengthy court battle or possible injunction on renovations.

[Sammy Sofa]

Expecting is not the same thing as attempting/due diligence. It may well have been the former, but there's little that saying it's the latter doesn't explain either.

 

I'm honestly completely lost with what you're trying to say here.

 

Took me a few readings, probably the most overly worst thing I've ever seen tt post. Think he's saying that it's not a guarantee that they expected it rather than just taking a shot at it. He must've been watching football at the time

 

Right. "Expecting" carries the connotation that not getting it put them behind schedule or caught them by surprise. Maybe that was the case, but anyone in that position would be crazy not to at least try to get public money. The delays that have come after that are due to the abject lunacy of the rooftops and Tunney, which I doubt anyone could speed up unless a different owner gave zero craps about a lengthy court battle or possible injunction on renovations.

 

So the various broken deadlines and missed projected start dates have been...what? Ploys? Smoke & mirrors? Just wishful thinking? I don't think it's too much of a stretch to ultimately think that they've been over their head in some areas.

 

Honestly, it often feels like some just don't want to admit that the idea that the Cubs' current owners might not be very good at owning the Cubs is a real possibility. I don't think that's something anyone can definitively say right now, but there sure seems to be some real defensiveness in terms of explaining away things where it seems like the Ricketts have either misjudged the situation, screwed up or just plain dropped the ball.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Sammy Sofa

[Guest]

Again, not claiming they've handled the situation flawlessly. Just disputing that it's a fact they "expected" public money for the renovations.

[imb]

Expecting is not the same thing as attempting/due diligence. It may well have been the former, but there's little that saying it's the latter doesn't explain either.

 

I'm honestly completely lost with what you're trying to say here.

 

Took me a few readings, probably the most overly worst thing I've ever seen tt post. Think he's saying that it's not a guarantee that they expected it rather than just taking a shot at it. He must've been watching football at the time

 

I seen worst

[Sammy Sofa]

Again, not claiming they've handled the situation flawlessly. Just disputing that it's a fact they "expected" public money for the renovations.

 

Fair enough. Like I said, I'm less inclined to think that that particular issue was something they were betting on getting, but given their overall crappy dealings with the city I think you can group it in under the general heading of "Chicago Sucks but Nobody Told the Ricketts."