Cubs after Anibal Sanchez? (Signs with Tiger 5/$80mil)

[Guest]

still don't understand how anyone can be mad at the front office for this. they made him an offer on the very high end of what he's worth, and then theo himseld flew to miami to meet him face to face. what more could they have done?

 

I'm not mad; I'm just disappointed with things. In no way do I think the FO is a bust or that things are hopeless, but I'm not happy that they've put themselves in a position that I think will cost them both in who can they sign and how much they'll need to spend.

 

it's a fair point, but i think a year ago you probably would have laughed at the notion that a losing environment would be more relevant to a free agency signing than the money itself.

[Sammy Sofa]

still don't understand how anyone can be mad at the front office for this. they made him an offer on the very high end of what he's worth, and then theo himseld flew to miami to meet him face to face. what more could they have done?

 

I'm not mad; I'm just disappointed with things. In no way do I think the FO is a bust or that things are hopeless, but I'm not happy that they've put themselves in a position that I think will cost them both in who can they sign and how much they'll need to spend.

 

it's a fair point, but i think a year ago you probably would have laughed at the notion that a losing environment would be more relevant to a free agency signing than the money itself.

 

Yes and no; I have laughed at the notion, but that was with the expectation/hope the Cubs would be able to flex their big market muscle more than they have. And I'm not saying they're acting like a small market club, but they're clearly not at the level I think pretty much everyone here hoped. Because of those seemingly self-imposed restraints I think it'll unfortunately leave them without players they should or even need to sign, or they'll have to spend too much just to stay competitive with other teams offering.

 

In the end it's not my money and I don't think this is a permanent situation at all; it's just unfortunate and can lead to some unfortunate deals where we're not just talking about an extra year or a few million more.

[dew1679666265]

Considering Sanchez was the #1 pitcher I wanted this offseason, I'm really glad I didn't see this thread until tonight when it was already announced that he turned us down. I'd have been really mad had I believed that Sanchez was going to be a Cub and then had the rug pulled out.

 

While it's not devastating to our future (I still have faith in the Theo regime), it's still really frustrating that we either were unable to or disinterested in signing Upton and Sanchez. Two good players on the right side of 30 whose skillset matches what the FO values and neither signed a silly deal. If it weren't for the track record of Theo, I'd be really pissed right now.

[Guest]

The very high end of what he is worth is whatever he can get. That's the definition of a free market. There isn't any magic point where the dollars a guy can get make the a guy a bad player. It's just one of the more nonsensical memes that people spew who want to be the resident smart guys on a message board like this. People need to stop pretending it's ok when the Cubs lose out on good players.

 

At some point the Cubs are going to have to start landing some bigger fish.

[Rob]

The very high end of what he is worth is whatever he can get. That's the definition of a free market. There isn't any magic point where the dollars a guy can get make the a guy a bad player. It's just one of the more nonsensical memes that people spew who want to be the resident smart guys on a message board like this. People need to stop pretending it's ok when the Cubs lose out on good players.

 

At some point the Cubs are going to have to start landing some bigger fish.

 

Are you really taking the stance that there are no bad contracts?

[Little Slide Rooter]

The very high end of what he is worth is whatever he can get. That's the definition of a free market. There isn't any magic point where the dollars a guy can get make the a guy a bad player. It's just one of the more nonsensical memes that people spew who want to be the resident smart guys on a message board like this. People need to stop pretending it's ok when the Cubs lose out on good players.

 

At some point the Cubs are going to have to start landing some bigger fish.

 

They gave it their all. Someone else just gave more. Should it have kept going until Sanchez ended up with Greinke money? I'd have loved to have Sanchez, but lets not act as though we missed out on a once in a lifetime free agent simply because he's been the first big name free agent we've actively pursued this offseason.

[Little Slide Rooter]

The very high end of what he is worth is whatever he can get. That's the definition of a free market. There isn't any magic point where the dollars a guy can get make the a guy a bad player. It's just one of the more nonsensical memes that people spew who want to be the resident smart guys on a message board like this. People need to stop pretending it's ok when the Cubs lose out on good players.

 

At some point the Cubs are going to have to start landing some bigger fish.

 

Are you really taking the stance that there are no bad contracts?

 

The closest thing to a stance like that is when you have a guy like Soriano, who already has a bad contract, at which point the money because irrelevant and you just get whatever you can, be it via production or trade. But hey, by all means. Lets give more free agents massive contracts. Perhaps no trade clauses. Better yet, lets trade for a 36 year old loogy because it's July and we're kinda-sorta in contention.

[Sammy Sofa]

The very high end of what he is worth is whatever he can get. That's the definition of a free market. There isn't any magic point where the dollars a guy can get make the a guy a bad player. It's just one of the more nonsensical memes that people spew who want to be the resident smart guys on a message board like this. People need to stop pretending it's ok when the Cubs lose out on good players.

 

At some point the Cubs are going to have to start landing some bigger fish.

 

They gave it their all. Someone else just gave more. Should it have kept going until Sanchez ended up with Greinke money? I'd have loved to have Sanchez, but lets not act as though we missed out on a once in a lifetime free agent simply because he's been the first big name free agent we've actively pursued this offseason.

 

How many strawmen can you pile into a single post? Just the first sentence is absurdly ridiculous and meaningless. If you're talking about "their all" as in the effort of actually flying to meet the guy and offer him a contract, so what? As tedious as it can get bringing up the "participation award," jokes, continually referring to their efforts as if trying hard counts as anything is just as awful. Plus the idea that you'd say they "gave it their all" when they failed to sign the guy is just patently ridiculous. Of course Sanchez isn't an amazing player, and of course I wouldn't want them to throw anything and everything at him to get him to sign, but your whole post is just...ugh.

[Sammy Sofa]

How many strawmen can you pile into a single post?

 

The closest thing to a stance like that is when you have a guy like Soriano, who already has a bad contract, at which point the money because irrelevant and you just get whatever you can, be it via production or trade. But hey, by all means. Lets give more free agents massive contracts. Perhaps no trade clauses. Better yet, lets trade for a 36 year old loogy because it's July and we're kinda-sorta in contention.

 

Oh.

[Guest]

The very high end of what he is worth is whatever he can get. That's the definition of a free market. There isn't any magic point where the dollars a guy can get make the a guy a bad player. It's just one of the more nonsensical memes that people spew who want to be the resident smart guys on a message board like this. People need to stop pretending it's ok when the Cubs lose out on good players.

 

At some point the Cubs are going to have to start landing some bigger fish.

 

such a weird post

[Elrhino]

I'm just saying that there is a certain level where I expect this franchise to be in 2015, and with each collective failed attempt to add talent to the franchise the potential avenues of how to get there get smaller and the hill remains just as steep as the day before. I'm not "angry" per se, just very troubled. I think it would be unwise to have faith that a "keeping the powder dry" philosophy is going to payoff into some magical off season in the next few years. More teams are signing local cable TV deals leading to a large injection of revenue into baseball. Revenue in baseball was 7.5 billion for 2012 (for sake of comparison it was 1.4 billion in 1995). In 2014 the new national TV package revenue kicks in and all teams will have a new influx of cash in their pocket to spend. Competitive demand for available talent is going to be more fierce than ever in upcoming years. The clock is ticking. Edited December 15, 2012 by Elrhino

[Clem Fandango]

I think if this team wants to be successful they need to make the kind of moves that win championships

 

[/McCarver]

[Donzo1679666396]

I’m surprised at the miserable tone in this thread… You guys are usually better than that here.

 

For Sanchez, the Cubs got out bid- so what?... Were they suppose to top 5/$80M? That would have been nuts. IMO, I’m glad he didn’t sign the Cubs offer. Did y’all really want him on the books in 2016 & 2017 for $$16M per?--- awful.

 

I really like these one & two year deals at this point…If a player flops, so what; if a player excels, then you have an asset- nice!

 

On the miserable mojo by a lot of the posters here- myopic much?!?… For last year, it was what it was, 2012 was going to be a mess regardless. What did it matter if the Cubs lost 91 games or 101 game- same difference. The Cubs traded some middling assets for youth, gave every prospect even close to the show a shot & added a bunch of talent to the system- good year.

 

For this year, does any reasonable Cub fan want the Cubs in bidding wars with the Dodgers & Angels right now? If the Cubs lose 84 or 94 games this year, what's the difference?!? To varying degrees, the Cubs established 3 young core players in 2012, Rizzo, Shark & Castillo. If the Cubs can add 3 or more young core players to the team this year & add as much talent to the farm system as last year, that would be an excellent year. This would set the Cubs up to be playoff contenders in 2014 & they’d be setup for a long term run.

 

Enjoy the process!

[USSoccer]

Of course there are some contracts that are "bad", but we aren't going to get extra outs per game for leading the league in wins per dollar.

 

The market is what it is. Pitching is at a premium; if you want to buy pitching (or elite offense) on the market, you need to be prepared to pay that premium price. Dumpster diving for 1 year "make good" contracts and other team's busted prospects is fine to a point, but you can't expect to acquire elite or above average talent consistently by doing that.

[jersey cubs fan]

I’m surprised at the miserable tone in this thread… You guys are usually better than that here.

 

For Sanchez, the Cubs got out bid- so what?... Were they suppose to top 5/$80M? That would have been nuts. IMO, I’m glad he didn’t sign the Cubs offer. Did y’all really want him on the books in 2016 & 2017 for $$16M per?--- awful.

 

I really like these one & two year deals at this point…If a player flops, so what; if a player excels, then you have an asset- nice!

 

On the miserable mojo by a lot of the posters here- myopic much?!?… For last year, it was what it was, 2012 was going to be a mess regardless. What did it matter if the Cubs lost 91 games or 101 game- same difference. The Cubs traded some middling assets for youth, gave every prospect even close to the show a shot & added a bunch of talent to the system- good year.

 

For this year, does any reasonable Cub fan want the Cubs in bidding wars with the Dodgers & Angels right now? If the Cubs lose 84 or 94 games this year, what's the difference?!? To varying degrees, the Cubs established 3 young core players in 2012, Rizzo, Shark & Castillo. If the Cubs can add 3 or more young core players to the team this year & add as much talent to the farm system as last year, that would be an excellent year. This would set the Cubs up to be playoff contenders in 2014 & they’d be setup for a long term run.

 

Enjoy the process!

 

Such nonsense. I'm not a behind the scenes fan. I'm a cubs fan. The process is worthless if the cubs don't win

[Little Slide Rooter]

The very high end of what he is worth is whatever he can get. That's the definition of a free market. There isn't any magic point where the dollars a guy can get make the a guy a bad player. It's just one of the more nonsensical memes that people spew who want to be the resident smart guys on a message board like this. People need to stop pretending it's ok when the Cubs lose out on good players.

 

At some point the Cubs are going to have to start landing some bigger fish.

 

They gave it their all. Someone else just gave more. Should it have kept going until Sanchez ended up with Greinke money? I'd have loved to have Sanchez, but lets not act as though we missed out on a once in a lifetime free agent simply because he's been the first big name free agent we've actively pursued this offseason.

 

How many strawmen can you pile into a single post? Just the first sentence is absurdly ridiculous and meaningless. If you're talking about "their all" as in the effort of actually flying to meet the guy and offer him a contract, so what? As tedious as it can get bringing up the "participation award," jokes, continually referring to their efforts as if trying hard counts as anything is just as awful. Plus the idea that you'd say they "gave it their all" when they failed to sign the guy is just patently ridiculous. Of course Sanchez isn't an amazing player, and of course I wouldn't want them to throw anything and everything at him to get him to sign, but your whole post is just...ugh.

 

When multiple teams want the same player, only one can have him. If the reports that he really wanted to stay in Detroit were true, we were essentially a pawn to get Detroit to up their offer and a fallback if they didn't.

 

To clarify my stance, I don't quite like the suck so that we might be good in a few years so much as I have come to accept it.

[Donzo1679666396]

Of course there are some contracts that are "bad", but we aren't going to get extra outs per game for leading the league in wins per dollar.

 

The market is what it is. Pitching is at a premium; if you want to buy pitching (or elite offense) on the market, you need to be prepared to pay that premium price. Dumpster diving for 1 year "make good" contracts and other team's busted prospects is fine to a point, but you can't expect to acquire elite or above average talent consistently by doing that.

That’s the thing, right now you don’t buy elite pitching & hitting, you develop it. “Dumpster diving” isn’t the long term plan, it’s just perfect for right now.

[Donzo1679666396]

 

Such nonsense. I'm not a behind the scenes fan. I'm a cubs fan. The process is worthless if the cubs don't win

 

 

Well, it is what it is. Unless Theo had Harry’s magic wand, how were the Cubs gonna win in 2012? & I guess it depends on what your definition of winning is. Do you want to spend your assets on a team that has to eek into the playoffs & hope to luck out, or do you want a team built to be a perennial contender? That’s an easy question for me…

 

Nevertheless, I don’t think much will make you happy. You’re gonna be bellyaching about most things anyway.

[Donzo1679666396]

To clarify my stance, I don't quite like the suck so that we might be good in a few years so much as I have come to accept it.

 

You realy think it will be a "few years"?... I don't see 2014 as suck.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I’m surprised at the miserable tone in this thread… You guys are usually better than that here.

 

For Sanchez, the Cubs got out bid- so what?... Were they suppose to top 5/$80M? That would have been nuts. IMO, I’m glad he didn’t sign the Cubs offer. Did y’all really want him on the books in 2016 & 2017 for $$16M per?--- awful.

 

I really like these one & two year deals at this point…If a player flops, so what; if a player excels, then you have an asset- nice!

 

On the miserable mojo by a lot of the posters here- myopic much?!?… For last year, it was what it was, 2012 was going to be a mess regardless. What did it matter if the Cubs lost 91 games or 101 game- same difference. The Cubs traded some middling assets for youth, gave every prospect even close to the show a shot & added a bunch of talent to the system- good year.

 

For this year, does any reasonable Cub fan want the Cubs in bidding wars with the Dodgers & Angels right now? If the Cubs lose 84 or 94 games this year, what's the difference?!? To varying degrees, the Cubs established 3 young core players in 2012, Rizzo, Shark & Castillo. If the Cubs can add 3 or more young core players to the team this year & add as much talent to the farm system as last year, that would be an excellent year. This would set the Cubs up to be playoff contenders in 2014 & they’d be setup for a long term run.

 

Enjoy the process!

 

Such nonsense. I'm not a behind the scenes fan. I'm a cubs fan. The process is worthless if the cubs don't win

 

Valid point. While these new age GMs head may be in the right place, Pro Sports is above all else entertainment. Job one should be to give their fans the most entertaining product possible with the available resources year in and year out. When television shows suck, the get canceled. The producers don't have the option of saying that the cast is getting too old and expensive, but bear with us, we've hired a young new cast and in a few years, we'll deveope their characters hopefully and have some coherant storylines.

[Backtobanks]

 

Such nonsense. I'm not a behind the scenes fan. I'm a cubs fan. The process is worthless if the cubs don't win

 

 

Well, it is what it is. Unless Theo had Harry’s magic wand, how were the Cubs gonna win in 2012? & I guess it depends on what your definition of winning is. Do you want to spend your assets on a team that has to eek into the playoffs & hope to luck out, or do you want a team built to be a perennial contender? That’s an easy question for me…

 

Nevertheless, I don’t think much will make you happy. You’re gonna be bellyaching about most things anyway.

 

And the Cubs are going to suck in 2013 (and possibly 2014). Is there a guarantee that in 2015 and beyond we will be perennial contenders? Much of this discussion is based on most (or all) of the Cubs' top prospects becoming solid ML players by 2015 so that we can plug them into the lineup or trade them for superstars (Price, Felix, Upton, etc.). The offseason isn't over yet, but the FO needs to find young players to start filling holes for 2015 now. My opinion on Theo is that he was brought in to get us to (or win) the WS and not to be a perennial contender in a weak division with a large market team. And yes, I know the playoffs are a crapshoot.

[Elrhino]

For Sanchez, the Cubs got out bid- so what?... Were they suppose to top 5/$80M? That would have been nuts. IMO, I’m glad he didn’t sign the Cubs offer. Did y’all really want him on the books in 2016 & 2017 for $$16M per?--- awful.

 

Not unreasonable to believe that $16 million for a #3 starting pitcher will be fair market value by 2016 with the huge amounts of revenue being brought into the league. Two years ago no one foresaw the Dodgers becoming the "West Coast Yankees". You think they're the only team that is going to sign a sweetheart local TV deal given the thirst broadcasters have for the content hours of MLB?

 

We get it, you think it's okay to put complete and utter garbage on the field because you think the this "process" is going to pay off. Well, it better payoff, and Im talking about the cold hard bottomline of wins and losses and not self congratulatory patting on the backs of how much "smarter" than franchises who are a lot better at winning baseball games than we are. I'm not watching multiple years of Ian Stewart and Nate Schierholtz so we can hold a "We sniffed .500 this year!!!" pizza party in 2015.

[Donzo1679666396]

We get it, you think it's okay to put complete and utter garbage on the field because you think the this "process" is going to pay off.

If you would, refresh my memory on this?

[KingCubsFan]

Of course there are some contracts that are "bad", but we aren't going to get extra outs per game for leading the league in wins per dollar.

 

The market is what it is. Pitching is at a premium; if you want to buy pitching (or elite offense) on the market, you need to be prepared to pay that premium price. Dumpster diving for 1 year "make good" contracts and other team's busted prospects is fine to a point, but you can't expect to acquire elite or above average talent consistently by doing that.

You really can't get premium talent on the free agent. That's the whole point of this "process" and why we were about to pay a ton for a guy like Anibal Sanchez.

[biittner77]

I’m surprised at the miserable tone in this thread… You guys are usually better than that here.

 

For this year, does any reasonable Cub fan want the Cubs in bidding wars with the Dodgers & Angels right now? If the Cubs lose 84 or 94 games this year, what's the difference?!? To varying degrees, the Cubs established 3 young core players in 2012, Rizzo, Shark & Castillo. If the Cubs can add 3 or more young core players to the team this year & add as much talent to the farm system as last year, that would be an excellent year. This would set the Cubs up to be playoff contenders in 2014 & they’d be setup for a long term run.

 

Enjoy the process!

 

I'd say the objections run along these lines:

1. What 3 players are the Cubs likely to establish this year? The top 5 prospects are all 2 years away

2. The difference between losing 84 and 94 games lies in the entertainment value. I'd like my favorite team to have a chance to win games sometimes.

3. There's no guarantee that the "be bad for 3 years" plan will work.