Joe Mather Batting Third

[Pushfrog98]

Trying to throw money at the team like Hendry did was a lot like this:

 

http://i.imgur.com/rNDsR.png

 

(spoiler for language).

 

It might have helped temporarily, but it didn't do anything in the long run.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Trying to throw money at the team like Hendry did was a lot like this:

 

http://i.imgur.com/rNDsR.png

 

(spoiler for language).

 

It might have helped temporarily, but it didn't do anything in the long run.

 

It didn't hurt anything in the long run either. It's not the money's fault that Hendry was awful at drafting/developing from the minors.

[bukie]

At this point, if Castro is going to hit 2nd, it should be some form of LaHair/Soriano/Stewart at 3-4-5 with Mather hitting on occasion in place of the pitcher.

[Guest]

Trying to throw money at the team like Hendry did was a lot like this:

 

http://i.imgur.com/rNDsR.png

 

(spoiler for language).

 

It might have helped temporarily, but it didn't do anything in the long run.

 

It helped more than that bucket.

[neely crenshaw]

It's very hard to feel that they are very close though. When you hit Mather 3rd just magnifies the fact that the team has 2 hitters and a couple of role players and then a load of guys that wouldn't be awful if they could hit 7th or 8th. My only guess is if Rizzo comes, he and lahair would hit 3-4 in some fashion. If he proves he can do it, and lahair keeps going, then you have a 1-4 that's solid.

[Sammy Sofa]

Who are the "two hitters?" Castro and LaHair?

[Little Slide Rooter]

Trying to throw money at the team like Hendry did was a lot like this:

 

http://i.imgur.com/rNDsR.png

 

(spoiler for language).

 

It might have helped temporarily, but it didn't do anything in the long run.

 

It helped more than that bucket.

 

Hendry basically did what big market GMs do. The Giants and Dodgers, to name a few handed out as much bad money as Hendry in the same time frame, but they're in better shape because they each had a lot of prospects that panned out, and did so big time. And it's not like we didn't seemingly have quality guys through the system in the '06-'07 farm offseason when most of the damage was done, though it was nothing like '00-'03.

[Backtobanks]

Trying to throw money at the team like Hendry did was a lot like this:

 

http://i.imgur.com/rNDsR.png

 

(spoiler for language).

 

It might have helped temporarily, but it didn't do anything in the long run.

 

It helped more than that bucket.

 

Hendry basically did what big market GMs do. The Giants and Dodgers, to name a few handed out as much bad money as Hendry in the same time frame, but they're in better shape because they each had a lot of prospects that panned out, and did so big time. And it's not like we didn't seemingly have quality guys through the system in the '06-'07 farm offseason when most of the damage was done, though it was nothing like '00-'03.

 

Some of the Hendry hate gets to the point of absurdity. Hendry was told to spend an ever-increasing amount of money to "buy" a winning team. That's one reason he hired Baker and Piniella. Hendry personally always wanted to develop and play the younger players, but ownership was in a win-now mode. Theo has been given complete autonomy to build (or rebuild) on his own terms. Hendry was basically an unknown when hired, while Theo came with a reputation.

[neely crenshaw]

my biggest problem with Hendry and his organization is their inability to ever trade a prospect for a proven talent. We were(allegedly) loaded with prospects at various times especially pitching but the names were "untouchable". So we held on to them until everyone saw they weren't what we thought, and then it seemed we traded them to baltimore for game balls and fungo bats.

At a time when we were pretty close to getting to the world series, we couldn't pull the trigger on a deal for a proven commodity to get us over the top.

[Backtobanks]

my biggest problem with Hendry and his organization is their inability to ever trade a prospect for a proven talent. We were(allegedly) loaded with prospects at various times especially pitching but the names were "untouchable". So we held on to them until everyone saw they weren't what we thought, and then it seemed we traded them to baltimore for game balls and fungo bats.

At a time when we were pretty close to getting to the world series, we couldn't pull the trigger on a deal for a proven commodity to get us over the top.

 

Tavarez + Dontrelle Willis for Matt Clement and Alfonseca

Todd Hundley for Grudzielanck + Karros

Bobby Hill + Jose Hernandez for Kenny Lofton + Aramis Ramirez

Choi for Derrek Lee

A. Gonzalez, Justin Jones, Brendan Harris, F. Beltran for Nomar Garciaparra + Matt Murton

[Guest]

Hendry sucks because he was old school, he didn't seem to care about OBP (and it showed in our farm system too), and didn't have the first clue about sabermetrics (and mocked them at times), not because he gave out big contracts.

 

 

Actually, most of the money wasted by Hendry that pissed me off was on smaller deals.

[dew1679666265]

my biggest problem with Hendry and his organization is their inability to ever trade a prospect for a proven talent. We were(allegedly) loaded with prospects at various times especially pitching but the names were "untouchable". So we held on to them until everyone saw they weren't what we thought, and then it seemed we traded them to baltimore for game balls and fungo bats.

At a time when we were pretty close to getting to the world series, we couldn't pull the trigger on a deal for a proven commodity to get us over the top.

 

Under Hendry, the Cubs acquired Derrek Lee, Rich Harden, Nomar Garciaparra, Matt Garza and Juan Pierre who were proven talents (of varying quality) while acquiring unproven talent that turned out very well in Aramis Ramirez and Michael Barrett.

 

Acquiring ML talent wasn't a problem for Hendry, it was developing young talent that actually performed for us at a cheap price that was the problem.

[jersey cubs fan]

Garland for Karchner baby!!!

 

I do think Jim should have been more interested in pulling the trigger on trades of his prospects while their reputations were still intact instead of waiting for all their flaws to be exposed and trading them after he no longer wanted them. My guess is once they feel they actually have prospects and this team is back to being respectable, this regime will be more willing to trade their better prospects while they are still prospects for better major leaguers.

[SouthSideRyan]

Garland for Karchner baby!!!

 

I do think Jim should have been more interested in pulling the trigger on trades of his prospects while their reputations were still intact instead of waiting for all their flaws to be exposed and trading them after he no longer wanted them. My guess is once they feel they actually have prospects and this team is back to being respectable, this regime will be more willing to trade their better prospects while they are still prospects for better major leaguers.

 

I feel the current regime will be less likely to ruin said prospects and encourage their flaws, while actively working to develop new flaws for them.

[neely crenshaw]

I din't say they made no trades. Almost all of those trades were salary dumps by the other clubs.

Also when you hang onto pie, 2 pattersons, kelton, dubois, guzman, brownlee, hill, marshall(as a starter),christenson,fox and this is just off the top of my head as untouchables.

 

seriously you are throwing at names like hernandez, hill, hundley and choi as top prospects. Actually emphasizes my point because those guys all were held onto until they got to the bigs and were no longer considered prospects but taken as slary dump by pittsburgh and the marlins. Their main asset was that they were cheap and got rid of salary. It's kind of like saying the Marlins used their young prospect volstad to get zambrano.

Exactly what do you think we could have pulled for them before they were seen at the big league level?

I am pretty sure we could have gotten any veteran we wanted at the deadline for patterson or hill, or pie, or even marshall before they flopped for us.

[Guest]

I din't say they made no trades. Almost all of those trades were salary dumps by the other clubs.

Also when you hang onto pie, 2 pattersons, kelton, dubois, guzman, brownlee, hill, marshall(as a starter),christenson,fox and this is just off the top of my head as untouchables.

 

seriously you are throwing at names like hernandez, hill, hundley and choi as top prospects. Actually emphasizes my point because those guys all were held onto until they got to the bigs and were no longer considered prospects but taken as slary dump by pittsburgh and the marlins. Their main asset was that they were cheap and got rid of salary. It's kind of like saying the Marlins used their young prospect volstad to get zambrano.

Exactly what do you think we could have pulled for them before they were seen at the big league level?

I am pretty sure we could have gotten any veteran we wanted at the deadline for patterson or hill, or pie, or even marshall before they flopped for us.

 

Acting like Hee Seop Choi was exposed as a bust or something when he was traded is a little less silly than it would be to say Rizzo wasn't a prospect when he was traded. Choi just had some more service time.

 

It's not like he wasn't a valuable piece at the time.

Edited May 31, 2012 by David

[SouthSideRyan]

When did Jake Fox have value?

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, what the [expletive]? Choi was still plenty praised at the time; he had been the #22 prospect just the year before and I remember a lot of commentary at the time saying the Cubs had made a mistake moving him for Lee.

[SouthSideRyan]

Why didn't Hendry trade Christensen after his only good season 2 years before he was GM????

[Sammy Sofa]

Wait...Fox? Jake Fox?

[Guest]

Chad is about as likely.

[jersey cubs fan]

Acting like Hee Seop Choi was exposed as a bust or something when he was traded is a little less silly than it would be to say Rizzo wasn't a prospect when he was traded. Choi just had some more service time.

 

It's not like he wasn't a valuable piece at the time.

 

Choi didn't "just have more service time". He wasn't nearly the PCL destroyer that he appeared to be on pace to becoming or that other PCL hitters were. He had a decent outset to his major league time, but by the time he was traded his reputation was already on the decline from where it was after his AA time. He wasn't exposed as a bust, but the shine was well off, especially after his head broke.

[Guest]

Acting like Hee Seop Choi was exposed as a bust or something when he was traded is a little less silly than it would be to say Rizzo wasn't a prospect when he was traded. Choi just had some more service time.

 

It's not like he wasn't a valuable piece at the time.

 

Choi didn't "just have more service time". He wasn't nearly the PCL destroyer that he appeared to be on pace to becoming or that other PCL hitters were. He had a decent outset to his major league time, but by the time he was traded his reputation was already on the decline from where it was after his AA time. He wasn't exposed as a bust, but the shine was well off, especially after his head broke.

 

BA had him as the 22nd best prospect in baseball going into 03, PCL destroyer or not.

 

By contrast, Rizzo was BA's 47th going into this year and 75th going into last year.

Edited May 31, 2012 by David

[jersey cubs fan]

When did Jake Fox have value?

 

He probably had some value in the 2005/2006 timeframe. Not centerpiece in a Miguel Cabrera deal, but some value at least.

[jersey cubs fan]

Acting like Hee Seop Choi was exposed as a bust or something when he was traded is a little less silly than it would be to say Rizzo wasn't a prospect when he was traded. Choi just had some more service time.

 

It's not like he wasn't a valuable piece at the time.

 

Choi didn't "just have more service time". He wasn't nearly the PCL destroyer that he appeared to be on pace to becoming or that other PCL hitters were. He had a decent outset to his major league time, but by the time he was traded his reputation was already on the decline from where it was after his AA time. He wasn't exposed as a bust, but the shine was well off, especially after his head broke.

 

BA had him as the 22nd best prospect in baseball going into 03, PCL destroyer or not.

 

A year after dropping him from 22 to 40. And the trade happened a year after that ranking, after his reputation continued to slide. Lots of people lost love for Choi that year, plus he broke his head.