Minor League Discussion & Boxes 4-30-12

[jersey cubs fan]

So you are assuming he would have crushed it? To what extent? His game doesn't really lend itself to crushing.

 

If he could put up a .770 OPS in the Southern League at his age, I feel pretty confident he could have put up an .830 or so a level down. I guess that depends on your definition of 'crushing,' but that's about what it took for people to excited about Junior Lake, who is roughly the same age as Vitters.

 

Junior Lake is a raw shortstop. Vitters is a 3B that can't stick at 3B. Who the hell is going to be drooling over that theoretical player?

[Guest]

Vitters has improved his D enough to stick at 3B.

[Guest]

In hindsight, I really can't fault them for sending him to Daytona in 2009. I know I initially had an issue with that, because IIRC that half year in Peoria for him, it was very streaky, but considering his draft status and the fact that he had a decent overall line in MWL, you hope he learns as he goes up the ladder.

 

He was terrible, then had a huge weekend and was promoted. It was bizarre.

 

That was the Daytona to Tennessee promotion, wasn't it? He had nearly 300 PAs with a .316/.351/.535/.886 line at Peoria when promoted.

[Guest]

In hindsight, I really can't fault them for sending him to Daytona in 2009. I know I initially had an issue with that, because IIRC that half year in Peoria for him, it was very streaky, but considering his draft status and the fact that he had a decent overall line in MWL, you hope he learns as he goes up the ladder.

 

He was terrible, then had a huge weekend and was promoted. It was bizarre.

 

That was the Daytona to Tennessee promotion, wasn't it? He had nearly 300 PAs with a .316/.351/.535/.886 line at Peoria when promoted.

It's goony being goony. Vitters got off to a slow start at Peoria, then was doing okay until he had a huge 10 day stretch that brought his numbers up to that .886 line. But he got in a solid half season at Peoria before being promoted.

[toonsterwu]

In hindsight, I really can't fault them for sending him to Daytona in 2009. I know I initially had an issue with that, because IIRC that half year in Peoria for him, it was very streaky, but considering his draft status and the fact that he had a decent overall line in MWL, you hope he learns as he goes up the ladder.

 

He was terrible, then had a huge weekend and was promoted. It was bizarre.

 

It was more a solid 2 weeks, IIRC, and I wasn't in love with the promotion then, particularly (and my memory could be off) because I think he had cooled down when he was bumped up ... but ... in hindsight, was it really that bad to send him up? They had held him down a full year by keeping him in Boise, and the MWL isn't exactly hitter friendly. I just don't know, in hindsight, if it was that bad to send him up, but I am mildly surprised I feel this way as of this writing.

 

Looking at it now, I'm more bothered by the jump to AA.

[jersey cubs fan]

In hindsight, I really can't fault them for sending him to Daytona in 2009. I know I initially had an issue with that, because IIRC that half year in Peoria for him, it was very streaky, but considering his draft status and the fact that he had a decent overall line in MWL, you hope he learns as he goes up the ladder.

 

He was terrible, then had a huge weekend and was promoted. It was bizarre.

 

That was the Daytona to Tennessee promotion, wasn't it? He had nearly 300 PAs with a .316/.351/.535/.886 line at Peoria when promoted.

It's goony being goony. Vitters got off to a slow start at Peoria, then was doing okay until he had a huge 10 day stretch that brought his numbers up to that .886 line. But he got in a solid half season at Peoria before being promoted.

 

His numbers were pretty poor until he went on a tear over a weekend. It's not goony being goony, it's goony not being blind to Vitters glaring weaknesses and mediocre professional career.

[Guest]

In hindsight, I really can't fault them for sending him to Daytona in 2009. I know I initially had an issue with that, because IIRC that half year in Peoria for him, it was very streaky, but considering his draft status and the fact that he had a decent overall line in MWL, you hope he learns as he goes up the ladder.

 

He was terrible, then had a huge weekend and was promoted. It was bizarre.

 

That was the Daytona to Tennessee promotion, wasn't it? He had nearly 300 PAs with a .316/.351/.535/.886 line at Peoria when promoted.

It's goony being goony. Vitters got off to a slow start at Peoria, then was doing okay until he had a huge 10 day stretch that brought his numbers up to that .886 line. But he got in a solid half season at Peoria before being promoted.

 

His numbers were pretty poor until he went on a tear over a weekend. It's not goony being goony, it's goony not being blind to Vitters glaring weaknesses and mediocre professional career.

with 300 PA's, it is impossible to be "terrible", have a "great weekend" and end up at a .886 OPS. The numbers simply cannot support the assertion you're making.

[toonsterwu]

Looks like Vitters had a hot series from 5/16-5/19 of 2009 (12/19) and that may be what jcf is referring to, but he did go 11/29 from 5/24-5/31, so I tend to recall it as a 2 hot weeks. He cooled off badly in June, going 0/18 from 6/7-6/12. He did go 7/15 in the three days prior to the call-up, though, so I think that may be what jcf is remembering.

[jersey cubs fan]

Looks like Vitters had a hot series from 5/16-5/19 of 2009 (12/19) and that may be what jcf is referring to, but he did go 11/29 from 5/24-5/31, so I tend to recall it as a 2 hot weeks. He cooled off badly in June, going 0/18 from 6/7-6/12. He did go 7/15 in the three days prior to the call-up, though, so I think that may be what jcf is remembering.

 

I recall it has a very slow start, he started to heat up a little, took another step back and then had a huge 3-4 day period after which he was promoted. It seemed at the time like they were just desperately waiting for an excuse to promote him.

[jersey cubs fan]

with 300 PA's, it is impossible to be "terrible", have a "great weekend" and end up at a .886 OPS. The numbers simply cannot support the assertion you're making.

 

And with over 1800 PA of mediocrity in professional baseball it is impossible to justify your irrational support of the guy's prospect status. But you do it anyway.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

with 300 PA's, it is impossible to be "terrible", have a "great weekend" and end up at a .886 OPS. The numbers simply cannot support the assertion you're making.

 

And with over 1800 PA of mediocrity in professional baseball it is impossible to justify your irrational support of the guy's prospect status. But you do it anyway.

 

I expect him to be a mediocre major leaguer, too, so I think that justifies it.

[toonsterwu]

Looks like Vitters had a hot series from 5/16-5/19 of 2009 (12/19) and that may be what jcf is referring to, but he did go 11/29 from 5/24-5/31, so I tend to recall it as a 2 hot weeks. He cooled off badly in June, going 0/18 from 6/7-6/12. He did go 7/15 in the three days prior to the call-up, though, so I think that may be what jcf is remembering.

 

I recall it has a very slow start, he started to heat up a little, took another step back and then had a huge 3-4 day period after which he was promoted. It seemed at the time like they were just desperately waiting for an excuse to promote him.

 

What I thought I recalled was a slow start, a hot mid-late May, then he cooled off, but looking at the numbers now, he had a better April than I recalled. He hit .302. Admittedly, he wasn't showing power (4 XBH), and if I ventured a guess, I'd assume that BABIP was high, but I'm not dedicated enough to figure out the numbers on my extended lunch break. He had a much better May, hitting .386, with 12 HR's and 6 2B's. It was in June where he slumped, hitting .239 with 6 XBH's. I think, IIRC, what I posted about it then (on another site) was that I didn't like the fact that he was called up when he was slumping a bit.

[KingCubsFan]

Looks like Vitters had a hot series from 5/16-5/19 of 2009 (12/19) and that may be what jcf is referring to, but he did go 11/29 from 5/24-5/31, so I tend to recall it as a 2 hot weeks. He cooled off badly in June, going 0/18 from 6/7-6/12. He did go 7/15 in the three days prior to the call-up, though, so I think that may be what jcf is remembering.

I think you guys are thinking of the wrong promotion. JCF is probably thinking of the Daytona->Tennessee promotion. Can't get the game logs from that time period, but looking back at the minor league thread from that day, you get this exchange (some things never change:

 

jersey cubs fan wrote:

Vitters has not been particularly good at high A and he's still 20, I don't see the point in promoting him to AA.

Tim wrote:

25th highest OPS in the league, so he's about the #2 hitter on each team in the league.

 

Plus, last 10 games: .324/.390/.459/.850

 

jersey cubs fan wrote:

Yeah, what you described doesn't stand out for a 20 year old with limited time at High A needing to be promoted. He's the 5th 3B on the list, 10th corner infielder, behind 5 middle infielders. He sucked last year and he's been decent this year.

 

The last 10 games things doesn't justify anything (and that 850 OPS is not even all that hot or better than his overall numbers). They justified his move to high A in the first place based on a hot weekend. I don't see the point in bumping him up everytime he has a short burst of production, when the big picture numbers just aren't impressive. It's as if they are trying to justify the selection.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Crap, I thought that the awful Iowa start last night belonged to Jackson, not Wood. At least we got some nice offensive games from some of our better hitters in Rizzo, Cardenas, Szczur, DeVoss, and Silva. Also good games by Beliveau and Batista. It would be great to be able to piece together a future bullpen from within and use our resources for bigger needs.

[toonsterwu]

Looks like Vitters had a hot series from 5/16-5/19 of 2009 (12/19) and that may be what jcf is referring to, but he did go 11/29 from 5/24-5/31, so I tend to recall it as a 2 hot weeks. He cooled off badly in June, going 0/18 from 6/7-6/12. He did go 7/15 in the three days prior to the call-up, though, so I think that may be what jcf is remembering.

I think you guys are thinking of the wrong promotion. JCF is probably thinking of the Daytona->Tennessee promotion. Can't get the game logs from that time period, but looking back at the minor league thread from that day, you get this exchange (some things never change:

 

jersey cubs fan wrote:

Vitters has not been particularly good at high A and he's still 20, I don't see the point in promoting him to AA.

Tim wrote:

25th highest OPS in the league, so he's about the #2 hitter on each team in the league.

 

Plus, last 10 games: .324/.390/.459/.850

 

jersey cubs fan wrote:

Yeah, what you described doesn't stand out for a 20 year old with limited time at High A needing to be promoted. He's the 5th 3B on the list, 10th corner infielder, behind 5 middle infielders. He sucked last year and he's been decent this year.

 

The last 10 games things doesn't justify anything (and that 850 OPS is not even all that hot or better than his overall numbers). They justified his move to high A in the first place based on a hot weekend. I don't see the point in bumping him up everytime he has a short burst of production, when the big picture numbers just aren't impressive. It's as if they are trying to justify the selection.

 

Well, I was talking about the Peoria to Daytona promotion, and that's what jcf responded to, so I assumed that's the promotion he was talking about. I don't disagree on the Daytona-Tennessee promotion as being questionable. Btw, all the game logs are on fangraphs.

[jumbo]

I still have an issue with the idea that Vitters was put on an "aggressive promotion schedule", tbh. It may be an issue of definitions, though, particularly as it relates to the word "schedule" in this circumstance. I just don't know, in looking back now, with the benefit of hindsight, that there have been that many points in time where he was "rushed" up the ladder, which the wording seems to suggest. He's basically had a full season at each level, and the Cubs were very careful in sending him down to Boise again that first year and not letting him up. In hindsight, I really can't fault them for sending him to Daytona in 2009. I know I initially had an issue with that, because IIRC that half year in Peoria for him, it was very streaky, but considering his draft status and the fact that he had a decent overall line in MWL, you hope he learns as he goes up the ladder.

 

Starting him at Daytona in 2010 was the right thing to do. If I have any issue with his overall "promotion schedule", it's with the one point in time - his bump in 2010 to AA. Leaving that aside, he had a full year and a half in AA, and while I wouldn't have had an issue with Vitters in AA again this year, I also understand why the new regime chose, for a guy in his 5th full season of pro ball and hitting Rule 5 years, to put him in AAA.

 

I guess, I don't disagree with the idea that we could've been slower with him, but I also don't think he was rushed that much relative to how his overall career arc has looked. He's been in pro ball since 2007. The better issue, IMO, is whether or not the practices of the old "old school" regime was the right match for Vitters development.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/minor-league-leaderboard-context/

 

This link shows the age of the most elite prospects in baseball at each level. Vitters is on that track. Not really disputing anything said, but age relative to competition is one of the bigger factors for prospects and Vitters has been among the youngest in his league throughout his career.