Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

[Hollandsworths mug]

NO one and I mean NO one has said the Red Sox should not seek compensation. The problem is that they are seeking RIDICULOUS compensation (Garza for sure and possibly Castro) for a guy that they really do not want anymore (despite what they may say).

 

Henry recently indirectly threw Epstein under the bus by saying he did not want the Crawford deal from the get go. The Cubs (by all accounts) have offered to pay huge money for the last year of Theo's contract, which, in itself, is ample compensation. They have also offered some sort of minor league players as well.

 

And this for a guy that Hendry indicated is burned out and the shelf life for his spot has run it's course. So, yea, they are out of line here.

[UMFan83]

So where does he state that he will allow him to go (or talk) if it's a non-lateral move?

 

Henry: There is a certain protocol in this game if somebody asks for permission to talk about a job that is not lateral, you grant permission

 

This is interesting because it indicates that the Red Sox are going to (or already have) granted permission because the job is a step up for Epstein. In other words, it seems that if Theo comes to the Cubs, it will not be just as a GM, he will have an additional title -- probably President of Baseball Operations. This is something Epstein won't get in Boston and it represents an opportunity that he is known to be interested in -- especially with a team with the resources that the Cubs have.

 

 

 

The second part of that did not come out of Henry's mouth. That is somebody's interpretation of it.

 

He did say that that protocol exists, and it WOULD seem to imply that that means if you offer someone a promotion, they will grant that person permission to interview.

 

Still, granting permission doesn't at all imply anything about an agreement on compensation or that they'll agree to allowing the person out of his/her contract easily.

 

In fact, he didn't even really come out and acknowledge that what the Cubs are offering is a non-lateral move (which is, to some extent, a subjective matter of opinion), though it's likely that they, at least somewhat, agree that it is.

Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in.

 

Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation.

 

I think most of us realize that the quote doesn't refer to him leaving the Red Sox for nothing and at the same time most of us agree that there should be compensation involved in the process.

 

What people do take from the quote is that there is an obvious difference between a manager leaving one team to take a manager position on another team and a GM on one team leaving to another to become President of Baseball Operations. Think back to the logic of why they don't refuse interviews to teams offering their guys promotions. Because they don't beleive its fair to their employees to block them from advancing their career with a promotion. As such, it stands to reason that they wouldnt also block their guys from accepting those positions by asking for unreasonable compensation, or at least compensation comperable to what the White Sox got or the Mariners or whoever has traded a manager to another team.

[davearm2]

Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in.

 

Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation.

 

You think compensation would be equal for a lateral move compared to a promotion? Nobody's arguing there should be no compensation involved.

Correct.

 

The whole reason for compensation is that the Red Sox are losing Epstein's services.

 

It doesn't really matter to them what role he's taking with the Cubs.

[Guest]

I'm impressed by how Boston, standing in the still-smoking ruins of a season with napalm continuing to reign down on the team, former manager, and ownership, thinks that bad P.R. will force Ricketts' hand.

That's the best statement of this thread.

 

So true. That's what I been saying all along, Boston has nothing to lose here. Theo isn't coming back and 7 million dollars is nothing to Henry and Werner. The [expletive] storm is already so large there is almost nothing they can do to make it worse. So, the way I see it, they are going to hold out for what they want. And like it or not Cub fans, there is not a lot of talent to be had in the minor leagues.

 

From the Cubs side, the Ricketts family has a plan and they want Theo to head up their operation but they're not willing to give up talent to get him. The PR storm won't be as nearly as big as Boston, but it certainly will reinforce some stereotypes about the Cubs, rightly or wrongly.

 

The question, is which side is willing to bend? I bet Theo feels like the only child in a messy custody hearing. He has to be pissed off even more with the ownership in Boston. At the same time, he can't be too happy about the Cubs side either.

 

It would be so Cubs like to lose out on Theo after being this close. I don't blame the Ricketts family if these talks breakdown though.

[SouthSideRyan]

Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in.

 

Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation.

 

You think compensation would be equal for a lateral move compared to a promotion? Nobody's arguing there should be no compensation involved.

Correct.

 

The whole reason for compensation is that the Red Sox are losing Epstein's services.

 

It doesn't really matter to them what role he's taking with the Cubs.

 

If Cherington left to become assistant GM of the Cubs, you think it would be the same as leaving to become GM?

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'm impressed by how Boston, standing in the still-smoking ruins of a season with napalm continuing to reign down on the team, former manager, and ownership, thinks that bad P.R. will force Ricketts' hand.

That's the best statement of this thread.

 

So true. That's what I been saying all along, Boston has nothing to lose here. Theo isn't coming back and 7 million dollars is nothing to Henry and Werner. The [expletive] storm is already so large there is almost nothing they can do to make it worse. So, the way I see it, they are going to hold out for what they want. And like it or not Cub fans, there is not a lot of talent to be had in the minor leagues.

 

From the Cubs side, the Ricketts family has a plan and they want Theo to head up their operation but they're not willing to give up talent to get him. The PR storm won't be as nearly as big as Boston, but it certainly will reinforce some stereotypes about the Cubs, rightly or wrongly.

 

The question, is which side is willing to bend? I bet Theo feels like the only child in a messy custody hearing. He has to be pissed off even more with the ownership in Boston. At the same time, he can't be too happy about the Cubs side either.

 

It would be so Cubs like to lose out on Theo after being this close. I don't blame the Ricketts family if these talks breakdown though.

 

The thing is, while the Red Sox probably don't plan on keeping Theo around, they lose nothing by forcing the negotions until the last possible moment. They know we want him doing his thing the moment the ofseason officially begins, so they might think the longer they stretch it out the more likely Ricketts is to cave.

[davearm2]

Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in.

 

Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation.

 

You think compensation would be equal for a lateral move compared to a promotion? Nobody's arguing there should be no compensation involved.

Correct.

 

The whole reason for compensation is that the Red Sox are losing Epstein's services.

 

It doesn't really matter to them what role he's taking with the Cubs.

 

If Cherington left to become assistant GM of the Cubs, you think it would be the same as leaving to become GM?

The Red Sox would not grant permission to the Cubs to interview Cherington for an assistant GM position. This isn't that tricky to grasp. Divorce the permission issue from the compensation issue, and you're home free.

[MSG T]

So where does he state that he will allow him to go (or talk) if it's a non-lateral move?

 

Henry: There is a certain protocol in this game if somebody asks for permission to talk about a job that is not lateral, you grant permission

 

This is interesting because it indicates that the Red Sox are going to (or already have) granted permission because the job is a step up for Epstein. In other words, it seems that if Theo comes to the Cubs, it will not be just as a GM, he will have an additional title -- probably President of Baseball Operations. This is something Epstein won't get in Boston and it represents an opportunity that he is known to be interested in -- especially with a team with the resources that the Cubs have.

 

 

 

The second part of that did not come out of Henry's mouth. That is somebody's interpretation of it.

 

He did say that that protocol exists, and it WOULD seem to imply that that means if you offer someone a promotion, they will grant that person permission to interview.

 

Still, granting permission doesn't at all imply anything about an agreement on compensation or that they'll agree to allowing the person out of his/her contract easily.

 

In fact, he didn't even really come out and acknowledge that what the Cubs are offering is a non-lateral move (which is, to some extent, a subjective matter of opinion), though it's likely that they, at least somewhat, agree that it is.

Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in.

 

Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation.

 

 

But whether it is a lateral move or not is relevant when people refer to other instances of compensation being given, when those situations were unlike this one, ie. Ozzie going to Florida to be their manager. A team receiving compensation for a manager moving into another manager's spot, with the added involvement of tampering isn't a precedent for a GM leaving to become President of another team. As was pointed out earlier, MacPhail leaving the Twins to join the Cubs would be the precedent for Theo, not Ozzie or Piniella or some other person making a lateral move.

 

I fully agree with your point that the Red Sox should receive some compensation, in fact I've seen very little disagreement with that here. The disagreement is over how much compensation is appropriate. The mentioned packages and the precedent they set don't apply in most cases. MacPhail brought the Twins an A-ball player, the Cubs are far exceeding that by offering $6.5 mil and possibly any MiL ballplayer, even a middlin' low level player. Even if they sent Ridling (name chosen purely at random), along with the cash, that would set a new, higher precedent than the one set by MacPhail.

 

Lastly, depending on the language in Theo's contract, which none of us have an understanding or knowledge of, he could have a basis for legal action if, according to his contract, he is allowed out for a promotion and they aren't granting that. You are speaking as if there is no possible way he could bring legal action, and you just don't know that. It is quite likely that there isn't, however unless the details of Theo's current contract come out, you can't make a blanket statement that he can't possibly make a legal case. It has happened where people have been let out of a contract by an employer for breach of contract. It's most definitely not common, but it does occur.

[Guest]

If Cherington left to become assistant GM of the Cubs, you think it would be the same as leaving to become GM?

 

 

That's a different story since Boston probably sees that as a legitimate promotion and his value is also not as high as Theo's.

 

With regard to Theo, I'm not sure they (or I) really buy that this is a promotion...nicer title or not.

 

He's coming here to run the baseball show and general manage this team. That's what he does in Boston. Yes, there's one guy between him and ownership, but that's still not close to the same type of promotion that Cherington would be getting. Assistant GM to GM is a huge deal. Executive Vice President/General Manager to "President of baseball operations and GM (or whatever we might speculate the title is)" isn't quite so much.

 

 

I say this because I thought of countering him with the same example and decided it was a bad argument.

[davearm2]

Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in.

 

Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation.

 

I think most of us realize that the quote doesn't refer to him leaving the Red Sox for nothing and at the same time most of us agree that there should be compensation involved in the process.

 

What people do take from the quote is that there is an obvious difference between a manager leaving one team to take a manager position on another team and a GM on one team leaving to another to become President of Baseball Operations. Think back to the logic of why they don't refuse interviews to teams offering their guys promotions. Because they don't beleive its fair to their employees to block them from advancing their career with a promotion. As such, it stands to reason that they wouldnt also block their guys from accepting those positions by asking for unreasonable compensation, or at least compensation comperable to what the White Sox got or the Mariners or whoever has traded a manager to another team.

I doubt the Red Sox, internally, believe they are being unreasonable, or are expressly trying to block anything.

[ctcf]

So... Anything of actual note happen this morning?

[UMFan83]

So... Anything of actual note happen this morning?

 

The Raiders gave up a crapload for Carson Palmer.

[SouthSideRyan]

Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in.

 

Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation.

 

You think compensation would be equal for a lateral move compared to a promotion? Nobody's arguing there should be no compensation involved.

Correct.

 

The whole reason for compensation is that the Red Sox are losing Epstein's services.

 

It doesn't really matter to them what role he's taking with the Cubs.

 

If Cherington left to become assistant GM of the Cubs, you think it would be the same as leaving to become GM?

The Red Sox would not grant permission to the Cubs to interview Cherington for an assistant GM position. This isn't that tricky to grasp. Divorce the permission issue from the compensation issue, and you're home free.

 

Well, you're wrong as usual if you think a generic team views a guy leaving one job for the same job the same as leaving one job for a promotion.

[ctcf]

So... Anything of actual note happen this morning?

 

The Raiders gave up a crapload for Carson Palmer.

 

Wow the bengals actually let him go?

[Laura]

FWIW, Bruce Levine is doing another ESPN Chicago Cubs chat right now. Here are a few sample Q&As:

 

Mike (Chicago)

 

Hey Bruce, do you think this Theo deal will fall apart, i am getting nervous that this is not going to happen.

 

Bruce Levine

 

It's just a power play by the Red Sox to show you can't just walk in here and take someone important away without a struggle.

 

Kevin (PA)

 

I'm assuming the Red Sox are dragging the Theo negotiations out to take the Boston media mind off of the year end collapse and the boozing pitchers?

 

Bruce Levine

 

If that's their intent they're not doing a very good job. Most everybody thinks the Red Sox have poisoned the waters on every important individual who ever left there, including Nomar, Schilling and Francona.

 

Bill (N Side)

 

Any idea of what the Cubs backup plan might be if the Red Sox won't budge and Theo returns there for 2012? Will they look to hire someone else or keep Randy Bush for a year as a caretaker GM?

 

Bruce Levine

 

I don't see that happening. We really shouldn't waste our time. Within the next few days this thing will get done. Bud Selig will make sure of that.

[Little Slide Rooter]

So... Anything of actual note happen this morning?

 

Kyle is plotting to blow up Australia.

[UMFan83]

CC still thinks its 25% chance of Theo coming here.

[Little Slide Rooter]

FWIW, Bruce Levine is doing another ESPN Chicago Cubs chat right now. Here are a few sample Q&As:

 

Mike (Chicago)

 

Hey Bruce, do you think this Theo deal will fall apart, i am getting nervous that this is not going to happen.

 

Bruce Levine

 

It's just a power play by the Red Sox to show you can't just walk in here and take someone important away without a struggle.

 

Kevin (PA)

 

I'm assuming the Red Sox are dragging the Theo negotiations out to take the Boston media mind off of the year end collapse and the boozing pitchers?

 

Bruce Levine

 

If that's their intent they're not doing a very good job. Most everybody thinks the Red Sox have poisoned the waters on every important individual who ever left there, including Nomar, Schilling and Francona.

 

Bill (N Side)

 

Any idea of what the Cubs backup plan might be if the Red Sox won't budge and Theo returns there for 2012? Will they look to hire someone else or keep Randy Bush for a year as a caretaker GM?

 

Bruce Levine

 

I don't see that happening. We really shouldn't waste our time. Within the next few days this thing will get done. Bud Selig will make sure of that.

 

I know Levines one of the guys we're not supposed to like, but I like him. For now.

[Guest]

I can't wait for the drama to be over with.

[Laura]

Phil Rogers contemplates what would happen if the deal falls through (+ new MLB CBA + Pujols' salary projections)

 

So what would happen if Larry Lucchino and the Red Sox really did demand so much in compensation from the Cubs that Theo Epstein couldn’t take the job until after the 2012 season? That’s a possibility -- albeit still a remote one, I think -- but after a week of unproductive negotiations it’s worth considering.

 

My guess is that Tom Ricketts would wait for Epstein, who would spend the year officially out of baseball. He’d still be under the employ of the Red Sox, who would pay him his salary and be responsible for a $3.5 million bonus at season’s end.

 

That said, would it be the worst thing if Epstein was blocked from joining the Cubs for a year? He and his lieutenants, like Byrnes (probably), would have time to study the organization from top to bottom and plan how to strike in a major way in 2013 and beyond.

[ScrubMD]

Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in.

 

Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation.

 

You think compensation would be equal for a lateral move compared to a promotion? Nobody's arguing there should be no compensation involved.

Correct.

 

The whole reason for compensation is that the Red Sox are losing Epstein's services.

 

It doesn't really matter to them what role he's taking with the Cubs.

 

If Cherington left to become assistant GM of the Cubs, you think it would be the same as leaving to become GM?

The Red Sox would not grant permission to the Cubs to interview Cherington for an assistant GM position. This isn't that tricky to grasp. Divorce the permission issue from the compensation issue, and you're home free.

 

Now that I've gone through an ugly divorce with these issues and look at it purely from the compensation standpoint, I can look back at all the examples of teams getting premium return for letting their executives leave to take a promotion. It's taking a long time to think of every single example. You're so right and so smart.

 

And now I really miss my ex-wife and kids.

[Banedon]

There's a lot of silliness in that article.

[Laura]

Heyman weighs in again

 

SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman

 

Padres gm jed hoyer is being considered for hire by the cubs/epstein. If hoyer goes to chicago, josh byrnes would be sd gm

[SouthSideRyan]

Heyman weighs in again

 

SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman

 

Padres gm jed hoyer is being considered for hire by the cubs/epstein. If hoyer goes to chicago, josh byrnes would be sd gm

 

lolwut?

[Banedon]

I'm really thinking that Epstein doesn't end up as GM. He'll be Pres and hire someone else as GM.