Re: New GM/Cubs Future News Articles

[Little Slide Rooter]

Maybe this is a silly question, I'm not keen on contracts and legal specifics, but... can't Theo just, you know, quit and forfeit the last year of his contract and then sign with the Cubs? I know he's contractually obligated but isn't there some sort of legal recourse he can take to just leave and cut ties cleanly with the Red Sox?

 

That's actually a good point. Quit and if they make a stink about the contract money the Cubs will just pay it and he's home free. Call me crazy but that makes a lot of sense.

 

Per his contract, unless both parties agree to break the contract, if he is going to work in baseball in 2012, it will be for the Boston Red Sox. He is well within his rights to retire and not work in baseball at all this year, but he would forfeit his pay.

 

True. He couldn't quit just to join another team. It can't be that easy.

 

Ok, but if he did just quit, and couldn't work in baseball in 2012, what would be to stop Ricketts to simply correspond with him throughout the off season and season and pay him under the table until the official end of the contract?

 

At this point, theres no way for Theo and Lucchino to work together this season. I guess the only two options for Henry would be to let Theo walk or can Lucchino, which would be an interesting end to the saga.

[Banedon]

I still believe that the deal will get done and Theo will be here soon.

 

However, a quick question: Has Friedman extended with Tampa yet or would he still be a possibility?

 

Friedman works without a contract. Theoretcally possible but is rumored to want to go to Houston is he leaves TB.

[Shilzzz]

Here's what this is really about:

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/15/theo_epstein_compensation_talks_drag_on/

 

One snag in the talks appears to be how many (and which) staff members Epstein can take with him to Chicago.

 

According to several reports, one of the staffers he wants to take is from the medical department.

 

That could be head trainer Mike Reinold, one of Epstein’s closest confidants. Epstein also has great trust in vice president of baseball operations Brian O’Halloran.

 

A medical staffer? C'mon Theo! WTH?!?!

 

you must not have been paying much attention to some of epstein's market inefficiency beliefs mentioned in this thread.

[RammyFanny]

Regarding Kaplan: The guy's an asshat and anything with his opinion should be completely disregarded. But he's broken a ton of news first in the past...if he's reporting something factually or quoting a source, it's most likely real.

 

Regarding Theo: I'd honestly just hold out. Seriously, what's the worst case scenario? Let Byrnes GM us for a season until Theo comes over next year and makes Byrnes his assistant? That's obviously the extreme, I doubt Boston would hold out that long with all the backlash they would receive.

[Guest]

I still believe that the deal will get done and Theo will be here soon.

 

However, a quick question: Has Friedman extended with Tampa yet or would he still be a possibility?

 

Friedman works without a contract. Theoretcally possible but is rumored to want to go to Houston is he leaves TB.

I think the Houston thing is dependent upon his father's group winning the ownership bid. Him being out there still gives Ricketts a lot of leverage in negotiations with Boston.

[PrimeTime]

GO AWAY CARLOS..We want Fielder or Pujols!

 

According to the Chicago Sun-Times, Carlos Pena thinks the hiring of Theo Epstein bodes well for his chances to return next season.

 

"No doubt,’’ said Pena. "He is the type of person I definitely appreciate and a professional that I appreciate. Playing against him so many years, and playing for him briefly in 2006, I’ve got nothing but good things to say.’’ Pena hit just .225 in his only season as the Cubs’ first baseman but his 101 walks and .357 on-base percentage offer enough value that Chicago could consider bringing him back. His .486 career slugging and .838 OPS appear to fit the general mold that Epstein has targeted during his nine-year tenure with Boston.

[El Duderino]

carlos can come back as the 1b coach.

[Shilzzz]

i read that quote when it was first pasted several pages back, but looking again it is really stupid. it seems to suggest that because stats were mentioned at all that epstein must like pena. that pena gets on base fits a 'general mold.' the learning curve for cubs beat writers is going to be the hardest thing to deal with in this town.

[jiml60]

Do-It-Yourself Compensation For Theo Epstein Speculation

I stopped reading after

By Al Yellon

 

+1

[mookie]

I really should invest in a punching bag.

[BosRedSox5]

Hey guys, Red Sox fan here (obviously) and I came to see what fans of the Cubbies were saying about compensation for Theo. Frankly I was a little surprised. We can argue all day long about who has "leverage" in the negotiations. One could make an argument the Red Sox can't afford to have a lame duck GM, and one could make a similar argument that the Cubs are "all in" on Theo and can't afford to back out. Either way, here's what I see when I look back to recent history regarding GM/Manager compensation:

 

2002- Billy Beane to the Red Sox*

It was widely discussed in Moneyball, and other sources that the Red Sox were going to give 3B Kevin Youkilis to the A's as compensation for Billy Beane. Youkilis became a star in Boston, but it's fair to say at the time he wasn't considered an elite prospect. With that being said, he had some great success in the minors. In 2001, his first year of minor league ball Youk hit .308/.504/.446/.950 which I believe would turn a lot of heads in this day and age despite his body type. In 2002 he continued that tear and hit .310/.436/.424/.860 while splitting time between the low minors and AA. No one knew if he'd have to DH, and no one expected him to become a gold glove quality 1B but his offensive prowess was not a surprise.

 

*This deal obviously never got completed, but it was rumored to be done before Beane changed his mind.

 

2002- Lou Piniella to the Devil Rays

I am operating under the assumption that a field manager is worth less than a general manager, especially one who would presumably be in complete control of baseball operations. I'm using Sweet Lou for comparison just to show the precedent for compensation, and I would actually expect the compensation to be higher for Theo than for a field manager.

 

In 2002 when the Devil Rays wanted Lou Piniella to take over they paid compensation to the Mariners in the form of 28 year old outfielder Randy Winn. Winn was never a star, but he was an above average major league CF who had just had a breakout season. In 2002 Winn hit .298/.360/.461/.821 and made the all-star team. He was one of Tampa Bay's best hitters and arguably their most valuable player. Only Aubrey Huff had a higher OPS+ and he DH'd for 53 games. Winn wasn't a star in Seattle but he was a speedy outfielder who provided (slightly) above average offense, defense and speed.

 

2011- Ozzie Guillen to the Marlins

Just this year Ozzie took his act to Miami and the Marlins had to pay compensation as well. The White Sox initially insisted on Logan Morrison who is a budding star but backed off because the Marlins claimed they would go hire Bobby Valentine instead who required no compensation. Still, the compromise was two nearly ready MLB prospects: infielder Osvaldo Martinez and pitcher Jhan Marinez.

 

"Ozzie" Martinez isn't an elite prospect, and he took a little bit of a step backwards in 2011, but in 2010, as a 22 year old in AA he hit .302/.372/.401/.773. On year ago Baseball America ranked Martinez as 5th best prospect in the Marlins organization as well as crediting him with the best strike zone judgment and infield arm in the system. Like I said, he stumbled a bit in AAA but he's still only 23.

 

Jhan Marinez was also ranked as a top prospect for the Marlins last year. 4th best overall. He was credited with having the best fastball in their system. He dominated High A and AA ball in 2010 (1.71 ERA, 1.000 WHIP, 64 K in 42 IP) before coming down to Earth a bit in 2011. He still performed admirably in a full season vs. AA pitching (3.57 ERA, 74 K in 58 IP) but control is an issue as he had a 1.534 WHIP. Still, he seems to project as a back of the bullpen arm. That's two of the Marlins' top 5 prospects who are very nearly ML ready. Sure they both had hiccups in 2011 but still look like at least serviceable parts of a ML team.

 

-----

 

There's a precedent there for giving up talent to pry managers, including general managers away from other teams. Theo isn't a field manager who's biggest job is to fill out a lineup card, his job would be to preside over the manager and the entire baseball operations department of a multi million dollar franchise. The Cubs are going to have to pay for the best GM on the market (arguably the best in the league, but I'll admit, I'm biased and there are cases to be made for others).

 

I don't think it would be unfair to demand at least two top prospects in exchange for releasing him from his deal. Even if it's Jackson and a pitcher (like Cashner? Jeff Beliveau?) it's probably going to be worth it because you'll have a guy in place who, it could be said, is the perfect choice for the Cubs. Someone who knows big markets, who knows the angst Cubs fans feel and who is a highly educated lawyer with a championship pedigree.

[Guest]

NESN looks at 20 Cubs prospects...

 

http://www.nesn.com/2011/10/brett-jackson-javier-baez-among-top-cubs-prospects-red-sox-should-seek-in-reported-deal-for-gm-theo-.html

 

Guess NESN doesn't know rules for trading of recently drafted prospects:

 

Brett Jackson, Javier Baez Among Top Cubs Prospects Red Sox Should Seek in Reported Deal for GM Theo Epstein

[Guest]

Hey guys, Red Sox fan here (obviously) and I came to see what fans of the Cubbies were saying about compensation for Theo. Frankly I was a little surprised. We can argue all day long about who has "leverage" in the negotiations. One could make an argument the Red Sox can't afford to have a lame duck GM, and one could make a similar argument that the Cubs are "all in" on Theo and can't afford to back out. Either way, here's what I see when I look back to recent history regarding GM/Manager compensation:

 

2002- Billy Beane to the Red Sox*

It was widely discussed in Moneyball, and other sources that the Red Sox were going to give 3B Kevin Youkilis to the A's as compensation for Billy Beane. Youkilis became a star in Boston, but it's fair to say at the time he wasn't considered an elite prospect. With that being said, he had some great success in the minors. In 2001, his first year of minor league ball Youk hit .308/.504/.446/.950 which I believe would turn a lot of heads in this day and age despite his body type. In 2002 he continued that tear and hit .310/.436/.424/.860 while splitting time between the low minors and AA. No one knew if he'd have to DH, and no one expected him to become a gold glove quality 1B but his offensive prowess was not a surprise.

 

*This deal obviously never got completed, but it was rumored to be done before Beane changed his mind.

 

Youkilis is a myth, the A's wouldn't have gotten him.

 

Peter Gammons[/url]"]When Beane was headed to Boston in November 2002, he and his Oakland assistant Paul DePodesta discussed the compensation issue. They agreed that Boston had only three interesting prospects: Hanley Ramirez, Kelly Shoppach and Kevin Youkilis. DePodesta wanted Youkilis, but Beane told him, "There is so little here, you can't leave me barren." DePo also didn't want to hold up the move, because then he would assume the general manager's job.

[Derwood]

Cubs definitely are NOT "all in". No other GM's have been hired yet. They have plenty of options

[Guest]

One could make an argument the Red Sox can't afford to have a lame duck GM, and one could make a similar argument that the Cubs are "all in" on Theo and can't afford to back out.

 

Umm, the Cubs have sucked for umpteen years. Does one more year really matter? If Ricketts is smart, as he has been showing to be lately, he's deferring to Epstein on who or what he should give up to complete this deal. I can't think of a better person to defer to with these negotiations than the guy who will be inheriting this mess.

 

Oh, and welcome to the board and thanks for offering up something other than Wu Tang Clan lyrics. :D

[mookie]

 

I don't think it would be unfair to demand at least two top prospects in exchange for releasing him from his deal. Even if it's Jackson and a pitcher (like Cashner? Jeff Beliveau?) it's probably going to be worth it because you'll have a guy in place who, it could be said, is the perfect choice for the Cubs. Someone who knows big markets, who knows the angst Cubs fans feel and who is a highly educated lawyer with a championship pedigree.

 

 

This belief is completely blowing my mind. Of course it's unfair. You want to pluck two of our best assets? You think that is fair? I think Boston fans have simply developed a "gimmie" type attitude ever since your winning ways. Hey, I tell you what. You want to throw in a baseball player like Youkilis or Lowrie, then maybe you can have some of those top prospects. That sounds fair to me.

[Guest]

Cubs definitely are NOT "all in". No other GM's have been hired yet. They have plenty of options

 

That too.

 

Plus Bud Selig is clearly pushing for them to not get a big leaguer so I don't see Cashner getting moved.

[CubsWin]

NESN looks at 20 Cubs prospects...

 

http://www.nesn.com/2011/10/brett-jackson-javier-baez-among-top-cubs-prospects-red-sox-should-seek-in-reported-deal-for-gm-theo-.html

 

Guess NESN doesn't know rules for trading of recently drafted prospects:

 

Brett Jackson, Javier Baez Among Top Cubs Prospects Red Sox Should Seek in Reported Deal for GM Theo Epstein

I'll be shocked and greatly disappointed in Ricketts if he agrees to give away anything of value in these compensation negotiations. In my view. Boston clearly has very little leverage. Theo clearly wants to come to Chicago. He and the Cubs have already agreed to the numbers. Boston has already announced their new GM. If they're asking too much, Ricketts should simply say, "Okay, keep him. We'll just wait a year until his contract runs out and then he'll come here." Boston's got nothing. Ricketts better realize that and just as importantly be willing to wait a year if he needs to.

[mul21]

Plus, the Marlins threw in the prospects they did so they didn't get hit with tampering charges, so that situation bears pretty much zero comparison to Theo.

[Guest]

Hey guys, Red Sox fan here (obviously) and I came to see what fans of the Cubbies were saying about compensation for Theo. Frankly I was a little surprised. We can argue all day long about who has "leverage" in the negotiations. One could make an argument the Red Sox can't afford to have a lame duck GM, and one could make a similar argument that the Cubs are "all in" on Theo and can't afford to back out. Either way, here's what I see when I look back to recent history regarding GM/Manager compensation:

Welcome to the site!

 

2002- Billy Beane to the Red Sox*

It was widely discussed in Moneyball, and other sources that the Red Sox were going to give 3B Kevin Youkilis to the A's as compensation for Billy Beane. Youkilis became a star in Boston, but it's fair to say at the time he wasn't considered an elite prospect. With that being said, he had some great success in the minors. In 2001, his first year of minor league ball Youk hit .308/.504/.446/.950 which I believe would turn a lot of heads in this day and age despite his body type. In 2002 he continued that tear and hit .310/.436/.424/.860 while splitting time between the low minors and AA. No one knew if he'd have to DH, and no one expected him to become a gold glove quality 1B but his offensive prowess was not a surprise.

 

*This deal obviously never got completed, but it was rumored to be done before Beane changed his mind.

As has already been pointed out, this is a myth.

 

2002- Lou Piniella to the Devil Rays

I am operating under the assumption that a field manager is worth less than a general manager, especially one who would presumably be in complete control of baseball operations. I'm using Sweet Lou for comparison just to show the precedent for compensation, and I would actually expect the compensation to be higher for Theo than for a field manager.

 

In 2002 when the Devil Rays wanted Lou Piniella to take over they paid compensation to the Mariners in the form of 28 year old outfielder Randy Winn. Winn was never a star, but he was an above average major league CF who had just had a breakout season. In 2002 Winn hit .298/.360/.461/.821 and made the all-star team. He was one of Tampa Bay's best hitters and arguably their most valuable player. Only Aubrey Huff had a higher OPS+ and he DH'd for 53 games. Winn wasn't a star in Seattle but he was a speedy outfielder who provided (slightly) above average offense, defense and speed.

Yes, but Chuck LaMar is an idiot.

 

2011- Ozzie Guillen to the Marlins

Just this year Ozzie took his act to Miami and the Marlins had to pay compensation as well. The White Sox initially insisted on Logan Morrison who is a budding star but backed off because the Marlins claimed they would go hire Bobby Valentine instead who required no compensation. Still, the compromise was two nearly ready MLB prospects: infielder Osvaldo Martinez and pitcher Jhan Marinez.

 

"Ozzie" Martinez isn't an elite prospect, and he took a little bit of a step backwards in 2011, but in 2010, as a 22 year old in AA he hit .302/.372/.401/.773. On year ago Baseball America ranked Martinez as 5th best prospect in the Marlins organization as well as crediting him with the best strike zone judgment and infield arm in the system. Like I said, he stumbled a bit in AAA but he's still only 23.

 

Jhan Marinez was also ranked as a top prospect for the Marlins last year. 4th best overall. He was credited with having the best fastball in their system. He dominated High A and AA ball in 2010 (1.71 ERA, 1.000 WHIP, 64 K in 42 IP) before coming down to Earth a bit in 2011. He still performed admirably in a full season vs. AA pitching (3.57 ERA, 74 K in 58 IP) but control is an issue as he had a 1.534 WHIP. Still, he seems to project as a back of the bullpen arm. That's two of the Marlins' top 5 prospects who are very nearly ML ready. Sure they both had hiccups in 2011 but still look like at least serviceable parts of a ML team.

As has been pointed out in this thread many times, the only reason Florida had to give up as much as they did was because there was tampering involved. That's not the case here.

 

-----

 

There's a precedent there for giving up talent to pry managers, including general managers away from other teams. Theo isn't a field manager who's biggest job is to fill out a lineup card, his job would be to preside over the manager and the entire baseball operations department of a multi million dollar franchise. The Cubs are going to have to pay for the best GM on the market (arguably the best in the league, but I'll admit, I'm biased and there are cases to be made for others).

 

I don't think it would be unfair to demand at least two top prospects in exchange for releasing him from his deal. Even if it's Jackson and a pitcher (like Cashner? Jeff Beliveau?) it's probably going to be worth it because you'll have a guy in place who, it could be said, is the perfect choice for the Cubs. Someone who knows big markets, who knows the angst Cubs fans feel and who is a highly educated lawyer with a championship pedigree.

1) You have not yet named any example of compensation being paid for when a front office person gets a promotion.

2) Cashner and Beliveau aren't in any way comparable.

3) I'd actually prefer Friedman, who wouldn't require compensation. But there are plenty of alternatives out there, despite how much I would love having Theo.

4) You can dismiss the question of leverage, but it is entirely relevant here. The only real power in a negotiation is the willingness to walk away. If the Cubs walk away, they have many other excellent choices to pick from. If Boston walks away, they have a bloody mess in their front office. Plus they'll be on the hook for a $3.5M payout after 2012 on top of Theo's salary for the year.

[Outshined_One]

If they're asking too much, Ricketts should simply say, "Okay, keep him. We'll just wait a year until his contract runs out and then he'll come here."

 

Or they could just hire a different GM, who'd get this:

 

In addition, Tom Ricketts stressed to Epstein that the family was committed to the Cubs long term and that it wanted to build the franchise the right way. Not trying to quick-fix the major league roster to improve the record. Instead, he showed Epstein his plans for a new spring training complex, a new state of the art academy in the talent rich Dominican Republic, a long term plan for renovating Wrigley Field and thus increasing revenue streams that will impact the major league payroll. Additionally, Ricketts told Epstein of his family's willingness to spend heavily in the draft and on international signings which should translate to a rapidly improving farm system.

[Guest]

I'll be shocked and greatly disappointed in Ricketts if he agrees to give away anything of value in these compensation negotiations. In my view. Boston clearly has very little leverage. Theo clearly wants to come to Chicago. He and the Cubs have already agreed to the numbers. Boston has already announced their new GM. If they're asking too much, Ricketts should simply say, "Okay, keep him. We'll just wait a year until his contract runs out and then he'll come here." Boston's got nothing. Ricketts better realize that and just as importantly be willing to wait a year if he needs to.

 

 

Pretty sure they haven't.

[BosRedSox5]

 

I don't think it would be unfair to demand at least two top prospects in exchange for releasing him from his deal. Even if it's Jackson and a pitcher (like Cashner? Jeff Beliveau?) it's probably going to be worth it because you'll have a guy in place who, it could be said, is the perfect choice for the Cubs. Someone who knows big markets, who knows the angst Cubs fans feel and who is a highly educated lawyer with a championship pedigree.

 

 

This belief is completely blowing my mind. Of course it's unfair. You want to pluck two of our best assets? You think that is fair? I think Boston fans have simply developed a "gimmie" type attitude ever since your winning ways. Hey, I tell you what. You want to throw in a baseball player like Youkilis or Lowrie, then maybe you can have some of those top prospects. That sounds fair to me.

 

It's fair based on precedent. It has nothing to do with a "gimmie" attitude. The Cubs would be getting the head of the Red Sox baseball operations department. From what I understand, in Chicago, he'd report only to Ricketts. Theo would be a top official with the Cubs, worth far more than a field manager. Even if you buy the single Peter Gammons quote (not sure I do), you still have the precedents set by Lou Piniella (above average ML CF) and Ozzie Guillen (two of the Marlins top five prospects, could possibly have been LoMo if the White Sox had any leverage.)

 

Interesting point though about Youk or Jed Lowrie, in both cases the Mariners and the White Sox had to give a lesser prospect/player to deal the deal. Based on precedent two top prospects from the Cubs seems like fair compensation to me, but there'd also have to be something coming back. Youk is out of the question as a throw in, but I think most Sox fans would use Lowrie in that way if the deal was good enough.

[Guest]

 

I don't think it would be unfair to demand at least two top prospects in exchange for releasing him from his deal. Even if it's Jackson and a pitcher (like Cashner? Jeff Beliveau?) it's probably going to be worth it because you'll have a guy in place who, it could be said, is the perfect choice for the Cubs. Someone who knows big markets, who knows the angst Cubs fans feel and who is a highly educated lawyer with a championship pedigree.

 

 

This belief is completely blowing my mind. Of course it's unfair. You want to pluck two of our best assets? You think that is fair? I think Boston fans have simply developed a "gimmie" type attitude ever since your winning ways. Hey, I tell you what. You want to throw in a baseball player like Youkilis or Lowrie, then maybe you can have some of those top prospects. That sounds fair to me.

 

It's fair based on precedent. It has nothing to do with a "gimmie" attitude. The Cubs would be getting the head of the Red Sox baseball operations department. From what I understand, in Chicago, he'd report only to Ricketts. Theo would be a top official with the Cubs, worth far more than a field manager. Even if you buy the single Peter Gammons quote (not sure I do), you still have the precedents set by Lou Piniella (above average ML CF) and Ozzie Guillen (two of the Marlins top five prospects, could possibly have been LoMo if the White Sox had any leverage.)

 

Interesting point though about Youk or Jed Lowrie, in both cases the Mariners and the White Sox had to give a lesser prospect/player to deal the deal. Based on precedent two top prospects from the Cubs seems like fair compensation to me, but there'd also have to be something coming back. Youk is out of the question as a throw in, but I think most Sox fans would use Lowrie in that way if the deal was good enough.

 

Where's the precedence for compensation when a promotion is involved? There is none.

[Guest]

 

I don't think it would be unfair to demand at least two top prospects in exchange for releasing him from his deal. Even if it's Jackson and a pitcher (like Cashner? Jeff Beliveau?) it's probably going to be worth it because you'll have a guy in place who, it could be said, is the perfect choice for the Cubs. Someone who knows big markets, who knows the angst Cubs fans feel and who is a highly educated lawyer with a championship pedigree.

 

 

This belief is completely blowing my mind. Of course it's unfair. You want to pluck two of our best assets? You think that is fair? I think Boston fans have simply developed a "gimmie" type attitude ever since your winning ways. Hey, I tell you what. You want to throw in a baseball player like Youkilis or Lowrie, then maybe you can have some of those top prospects. That sounds fair to me.

 

It's fair based on precedent. It has nothing to do with a "gimmie" attitude. The Cubs would be getting the head of the Red Sox baseball operations department. From what I understand, in Chicago, he'd report only to Ricketts. Theo would be a top official with the Cubs, worth far more than a field manager. Even if you buy the single Peter Gammons quote (not sure I do), you still have the precedents set by Lou Piniella (above average ML CF) and Ozzie Guillen (two of the Marlins top five prospects, could possibly have been LoMo if the White Sox had any leverage.)

 

Interesting point though about Youk or Jed Lowrie, in both cases the Mariners and the White Sox had to give a lesser prospect/player to deal the deal. Based on precedent two top prospects from the Cubs seems like fair compensation to me, but there'd also have to be something coming back. Youk is out of the question as a throw in, but I think most Sox fans would use Lowrie in that way if the deal was good enough.

You keep talking about precedent, but you're using the wrong ones. Your own owner talked about the fact that the precedent in baseball is to not require compensation from the other team if your guy is getting a promotion with the move. Theo will be getting a promotion in that he'll report directly to the owner of the team in Chicago.

 

Your precedents are meaningless.