so the phillies are pretty good, huh

[Shilzzz]

WAR amongst NL pitchers:

1) Roy Halladay, PHI, 5.5

2) Cole Hamels, PHI, 5.0

3) Cliff Lee, PHI, 4.6

[Shilzzz]

NL Pitching RAR:

1) Philadelphia, 213

2) Colorado, 173

15) Chicago NL, 35

16) Houston, -22

[Sammy Sofa]

Yes, the Phillies PITCHERS are pretty good.

[UMFan83]

NL Pitching RAR:

1) Philadelphia, 213

2) Colorado, 173

15) Chicago NL, 35

16) Houston, -22

 

The Astros should probably find some of those mythical "replacement level" pitchers to pitch for them.

[TruffleShuffle]

Yes, the Phillies PITCHERS are pretty good.

 

the phillies are really good because their pitching is crazy good.

[Sammy Sofa]

Meh. Not terribly impressed with their rather Cubs-like offense. Very impressed with their damn good pitching that is carrying the team.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

That Cole Hamels guy is pretty good? Notice how his two teammates are two of the best 30+ year old arms in baseball, and he's as talented as either of them. So begins the Cole Hamels for Cubs Rotation President in 2013 dream.

[TruffleShuffle]

That Cole Hamels guy is pretty good? Notice how his two teammates are two of the best 30+ year old arms in baseball, and he's as talented as either of them. So begins the Cole Hamels for Cubs Rotation President in 2013 dream.

 

i really would not count on him leaving philly. they have a $165m payroll this year, and oswalt and blanton will be off their books by 2012 offseason.

[jersey cubs fan]

Meh. Not terribly impressed with their rather Cubs-like offense. Very impressed with their damn good pitching that is carrying the team.

 

They have the best record in baseball, by a pretty decent margin. The Phillies are awesome.

[Sammy Sofa]

Meh. Not terribly impressed with their rather Cubs-like offense. Very impressed with their damn good pitching that is carrying the team.

 

They have the best record in baseball, by a pretty decent margin. The Phillies are awesome.

 

I agree. The Phillies' starting rotation is amazing.

[Little Slide Rooter]

It's not like they have a bad offense. Sure, they are'nt putting up the best of numbers, but Howard, Rollins, Utley, Victorino, and now Pence are definitely capable of doing some damage. Even Ibanez can still hit the ball a bir. They could use one more big bat in that lineup, say at 3B. I wonder if anyone has a slugging 3B to offer.

[UMFan83]

It's not like they have a bad offense. Sure, they are'nt putting up the best of numbers, but Howard, Rollins, Utley, Victorino, and now Pence are definitely capable of doing some damage. Even Ibanez can still hit the ball a bir. They could use one more big bat in that lineup, say at 3B. I wonder if anyone has a slugging 3B to offer.

 

Ibanez and his 88 OPS+ can sure rake it.

 

I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is

[Little Slide Rooter]

It's not like they have a bad offense. Sure, they are'nt putting up the best of numbers, but Howard, Rollins, Utley, Victorino, and now Pence are definitely capable of doing some damage. Even Ibanez can still hit the ball a bir. They could use one more big bat in that lineup, say at 3B. I wonder if anyone has a slugging 3B to offer.

 

Ibanez and his 88 OPS+ can sure rake it.

 

I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is

 

It's also about what these guys are capable of. Utley, Rollins, and Howard are all in the primce of their careers, and have been underperforming for the most part, as opposed to our guys, like Soriano, Byrd, and Pena, who are putting up the numbers that can pretty much be expected of them at this stage in their careers, although Rollins is somewhat more questionable judging by his past 2 seasons.

[UMFan83]

It's not like they have a bad offense. Sure, they are'nt putting up the best of numbers, but Howard, Rollins, Utley, Victorino, and now Pence are definitely capable of doing some damage. Even Ibanez can still hit the ball a bir. They could use one more big bat in that lineup, say at 3B. I wonder if anyone has a slugging 3B to offer.

 

Ibanez and his 88 OPS+ can sure rake it.

 

I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is

 

It's also about what these guys are capable of. Utley, Rollins, and Howard are all in the primce of their careers, and have been underperforming for the most part, as opposed to our guys, like Soriano, Byrd, and Pena, who are putting up the numbers that can pretty much be expected of them at this stage in their careers, although Rollins is somewhat more questionable judging by his past 2 seasons.

 

Utley is 32, Rollins is 32, Howard is turning 32 this year. Not all that different from the Cubs you mentioned. Pena is 32, Byrd is 33, Soriano is 34. In the post-steroid era 32 is around the time the downside from peak performance starts for many, but not all players.

[Guest]

It's not like they have a bad offense. Sure, they are'nt putting up the best of numbers, but Howard, Rollins, Utley, Victorino, and now Pence are definitely capable of doing some damage. Even Ibanez can still hit the ball a bir. They could use one more big bat in that lineup, say at 3B. I wonder if anyone has a slugging 3B to offer.

 

Ibanez and his 88 OPS+ can sure rake it.

 

I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is

 

It's also about what these guys are capable of. Utley, Rollins, and Howard are all in the primce of their careers, and have been underperforming for the most part, as opposed to our guys, like Soriano, Byrd, and Pena, who are putting up the numbers that can pretty much be expected of them at this stage in their careers, although Rollins is somewhat more questionable judging by his past 2 seasons.

 

Rollins is 32 and is performing much better than either of the last two years. He's got a 101 OPS+ this year, a number that he significantly bettered only once (2007).

 

Howard is 31 and his OPS+ is right in line with what he put up in 08 and 10, so out of the last four years, 2009 is the outlier.

 

Utley is 32 and is right in line with what he did last year. He's coming off an injury so his numbers might be a bit low because of that, but it's entirely possible he's just declining.

 

Depending on what you consider the prime of a career, all of these guys are either right at the end of it or past it. They're hitting about as well as could be expected of them right now.

[Little Slide Rooter]

It's not like they have a bad offense. Sure, they are'nt putting up the best of numbers, but Howard, Rollins, Utley, Victorino, and now Pence are definitely capable of doing some damage. Even Ibanez can still hit the ball a bir. They could use one more big bat in that lineup, say at 3B. I wonder if anyone has a slugging 3B to offer.

 

Ibanez and his 88 OPS+ can sure rake it.

 

I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is

 

It's also about what these guys are capable of. Utley, Rollins, and Howard are all in the primce of their careers, and have been underperforming for the most part, as opposed to our guys, like Soriano, Byrd, and Pena, who are putting up the numbers that can pretty much be expected of them at this stage in their careers, although Rollins is somewhat more questionable judging by his past 2 seasons.

 

Utley is 32, Rollins is 32, Howard is turning 32 this year. Not all that different from the Cubs you mentioned. Pena is 32, Byrd is 33, Soriano is 34. In the post-steroid era 32 is around the time the downside from peak performance starts for many, but not all players.

 

But the fact remains, these are better players than the ones we have, and really can't be compared to our guys. Yeah, they don't have a ton of talen built around those 5 guys, but looking around the NL, there arent exactly a lot of offensive powerhouses like they have in the AL. This Phillies offense should be good for at least 4-6 runs per game, and when you have the pitching they have, that should be good enough.

[UMFan83]

It's not like they have a bad offense. Sure, they are'nt putting up the best of numbers, but Howard, Rollins, Utley, Victorino, and now Pence are definitely capable of doing some damage. Even Ibanez can still hit the ball a bir. They could use one more big bat in that lineup, say at 3B. I wonder if anyone has a slugging 3B to offer.

 

Ibanez and his 88 OPS+ can sure rake it.

 

I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is

 

It's also about what these guys are capable of. Utley, Rollins, and Howard are all in the primce of their careers, and have been underperforming for the most part, as opposed to our guys, like Soriano, Byrd, and Pena, who are putting up the numbers that can pretty much be expected of them at this stage in their careers, although Rollins is somewhat more questionable judging by his past 2 seasons.

 

Utley is 32, Rollins is 32, Howard is turning 32 this year. Not all that different from the Cubs you mentioned. Pena is 32, Byrd is 33, Soriano is 34. In the post-steroid era 32 is around the time the downside from peak performance starts for many, but not all players.

 

But the fact remains, these are better players than the ones we have, and really can't be compared to our guys. Yeah, they don't have a ton of talen built around those 5 guys, but looking around the NL, there arent exactly a lot of offensive powerhouses like they have in the AL. This Phillies offense should be good for at least 4-6 runs per game, and when you have the pitching they have, that should be good enough.

 

I'd hope they'd be good for 4-6 runs per game, since the top 19 offenses in baseball fall into that range (including the Cubs). Saying they are similar to the Cubs is not an insult, its basically saying they are mediocre.

 

And in terms of Utley, Howard and Rollins being better prime players than Soriano, Pena and Byrd, this is true but the margin is not huge. Howard always struck me as the kind of guy that when he slips he's done, so it doesn't exactly shock me he's been hovering around .800 OPS most of the year. That said, he's had a lot of seasons where he's been mediocre well into the summer only to get hot the rest of the year and carry the team. As a hitter, Rollins has always struck me as a little overrated. In terms of WAR, Byrd has actually outplayed Rollins over the last 4 seasons (11.3 WAR for Byrd, 9.6 for Rollins), and that includes defense. But yeah, even including what I said about Howard, both him and Utley are clearly better players, and are both performing better than Pena and Soriano this year.

 

Despite that the Phillies offense is right around the same level as the Cubs. Cubs have the higher OPS, SLG and PA. Phillies with a higher OBP. And that includes taking into account Victorino's MVP caliber season, of which the Cubs have no match.

 

If you look at the Cubs lineup by OPS+, the Cubs have/had 6 of their 8 regulars above 100, with Soto at 95 and Barney at 89 being the lowest regular. The Phillies have 4 regulars below 100, with 2 players with a worse than Barney's 89, Ibanez at 88 and All Star 3B Polanco at 85. Even if you factor in improvements to Utley and Howard, it doesn't really do much to discredit the statement "I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is"

[jersey cubs fan]

. Even if you factor in improvements to Utley and Howard, it doesn't really do much to discredit the statement "I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is"

 

And yet that still doesn't make a lick of sense when trying to pretend the Phillies are not a very good team. The fact that their offense is only above average doesn't change the fact that the team is excellent.

[UMFan83]

. Even if you factor in improvements to Utley and Howard, it doesn't really do much to discredit the statement "I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is"

 

And yet that still doesn't make a lick of sense when trying to pretend the Phillies are not a very good team. The fact that their offense is only above average doesn't change the fact that the team is excellent.

 

Of course they are. They are a fantastic team who will probably win the World Series. Who said anything but that?

[jersey cubs fan]

. Even if you factor in improvements to Utley and Howard, it doesn't really do much to discredit the statement "I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is"

 

And yet that still doesn't make a lick of sense when trying to pretend the Phillies are not a very good team. The fact that their offense is only above average doesn't change the fact that the team is excellent.

 

Of course they are. They are a fantastic team who will probably win the World Series. Who said anything but that?

 

did you not read the thread?

[UMFan83]

. Even if you factor in improvements to Utley and Howard, it doesn't really do much to discredit the statement "I think Cub like offense is a pretty good description, outside of the fact that the Cubs have no one hitting like Victorino is"

 

And yet that still doesn't make a lick of sense when trying to pretend the Phillies are not a very good team. The fact that their offense is only above average doesn't change the fact that the team is excellent.

 

Of course they are. They are a fantastic team who will probably win the World Series. Who said anything but that?

 

did you not read the thread?

 

Yeah and no one is saying that the Phillies are anything but awesome as a team, just that its the pitching that makes them so elite. Their offense has been slightly above average and their pitching has been otherworldly. Sounds like a winning combo to me.

[jersey cubs fan]

Yeah and no one is saying that the Phillies are anything but awesome as a team, just that its the pitching that makes them so elite. Their offense has been slightly above average and their pitching has been otherworldly. Sounds like a winning combo to me.

 

No. It was stated that the team was awesome and then pointed out multiple times after fact that no, it was actually just the pitching that was awesome. As if you can't have an awesome team with an excellent rotation and above average offsense.

[UMFan83]

The only poster you could say implied that only the Phillies pitching is awesome which doesnt make them an awesome team is Mojo, and he didn't come out and say it like that. You can certainly believe a team is awesome and point out areas where they are less than awesome.

[CubColtPacer]

That Cole Hamels guy is pretty good? Notice how his two teammates are two of the best 30+ year old arms in baseball, and he's as talented as either of them. So begins the Cole Hamels for Cubs Rotation President in 2013 dream.

 

i really would not count on him leaving philly. they have a $165m payroll this year, and oswalt and blanton will be off their books by 2012 offseason.

 

I agree the Phillies will make him too much of a priority for him to get away. I don't know how they will redo their offense if they sign him though. They have 60 million tied up to the starting rotation this year. If they sign Hamels to a 20 million a year deal, they'll have 65 million in the rotation for 3 pitchers (Worley should end up being a decent option for cheap, but they'll still have to find a 5th starter). But they'll have to deal with that because they have to pay Hamels-he's too important for their future to get away.

[TruffleShuffle]

That Cole Hamels guy is pretty good? Notice how his two teammates are two of the best 30+ year old arms in baseball, and he's as talented as either of them. So begins the Cole Hamels for Cubs Rotation President in 2013 dream.

 

i really would not count on him leaving philly. they have a $165m payroll this year, and oswalt and blanton will be off their books by 2012 offseason.

 

I agree the Phillies will make him too much of a priority for him to get away. I don't know how they will redo their offense if they sign him though. They have 60 million tied up to the starting rotation this year. If they sign Hamels to a 20 million a year deal, they'll have 65 million in the rotation for 3 pitchers

 

they'd just structure it so that hamels has a lower salary in 2013-14 (assuming halladay's 2014 option is exercised) and then higher salaries from 2015 onward. as it is they'll be dropping close to $80m on four starters next year, so obviously they can handle it.