Lee's Down Year

[Ding Dong Johnson]

The guy hit .545 in his last playoff series, for Tebow's sake.

He knew they were going to get swept.

[questionmarkgrace]

His swing has been OK this weekend.

 

This just seems like typical lee to me. He shows up in the boxscores when it no longer matters. It happened this year and to a degree last year. He played great in 05 when it didn't matter. When it comes to crunch time as in the post season, the guy has zero rbi's with the cubs and 8 total in 100 at bats. Hes just not a legitimate star, team leader, nor a three hitter. Unfortunately year after year we were left to depend on him in this capacity.

 

If only we had more Jaw jutting, forward leaning, scruff of the beard type winners like Darin Erstad or Scott Brocius.

 

Nice sarcasm but this was hardly a post about having more hustle-type "winners." How does that make us better? Its about getting some consistent hitting out of the three hole and having a real run producer in our line up.

 

jesus

 

why don't you elaborate and enlighten me as to why having a legit run producer is a bad idea.

 

 

I have had this argument about lee before:

 

2010 first half .233 avg overall .227 w/risp.

 

2009 April hes no where to be found we finish the month 10-11. Normally not a big deal but we played a lot of division games that month and it put us in a whole from the start. ALso finishes the season with only 30 rbi's against teams with a record of .500 or more. His line against the cardinals that year .268 .300 .393 .693. not so hot from the three hole.

 

2008 we win the division. Get to the playoffs no RBI. Yes he hit .545 but was still 0-4 with runners on base. He also had a key error after the Derosa error to extend that ridiculous second inning.

 

2007 bit of a power outage for lee. but we still win the division. No rbi again. 0-3 with runners on in game 1, 0-4 with runners on in game 2, 0-2 with runners on in game 3

 

2006 injured - not sure if he ever would have been the guy from 05 again anyways but this definitely hurt his numbers.

 

2005 go's absolutely nuts. I'm chanting mvp at a game where he goes 4-4 against the marlins with two doubles a single and a homer. Awesome! Too bad we were pretty much out of it from the start. his peak year with the cubs.

 

2004 did most of his damage from the 5 and 6 hole where he probably belongs. Was terrible from the two hole. Absolutely wilted during september when he produced a .217 .338 .357 and 0 rbi in the last 17 games in a season where we lost out on the wild card the last week of the year.

[Sammy Sofa]

Stop ignoring all of the other posts that showed you to be ridiculous.

[rocket]

lee had a very clutch hit for us in the '03 playoffs if i'm remembering it correctly

[imb]

ALso finishes the season with only 30 rbi's against teams with a record of .500 or more.

 

lol

[Sammy Sofa]

He sucked at the end of all those seasons except where didn't but then he sucked at the beginning of the season except when he didn't and because of his psychic powers he knows when the season is over even after the first week and aw [expletive] it I missed something.

[Rob]

In this thread, poster who decided already he hates Derrek Lee makes up flimsy rationalizations to back up his opinion.

 

thread>

[questionmarkgrace]

He sucked at the end of all those seasons except where didn't but then he sucked at the beginning of the season except when he didn't and because of his psychic powers he knows when the season is over even after the first week and aw [expletive] it I missed something.

 

I think it's hilarious how you guys fall in love with a player. I bet your still calling for rich hill right?

 

The guy has done virtually nothing to help this team get over the hump. and Hasn't come through when we needed him to be the producer. That's not a three hitter. Plus everyone with a brain knew that April was going to be our key month that year because of so many divisional games and even though we came back to get into first place in august it came back to bite us. Why don't you at least acknowledge that he's failed at key times. I can say he's had fantastic streches but he always seems to wilt in the pressure spots. He may have hadthat one hit for the marlins but he was 3 for 28 the rest of that playoffs. You may say coincidence or revisionist I say trend.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I think it's hilarious how you guys fall in love with a player. I bet your still calling for rich hill right?

 

The guy has done virtually nothing to help this team get over the hump. and Hasn't come through when we needed him to be the producer. That's not a three hitter. Plus everyone with a brain knew that April was going to be our key month that year because of so many divisional games and even though we came back to get into first place in august it came back to bite us. Why don't you at least acknowledge that he's failed at key times. I can say he's had fantastic streches but he always seems to wilt in the pressure spots. He may have hadthat one hit for the marlins but he was 3 for 28 the rest of that playoffs. You may say coincidence or revisionist I say trend.

His still calling has nothing to do with anything.

 

You can plug EVERY baseball player EVER's name into this discussion and that last part would be at least somewhat true. We all know Lee has sucked terribly this year, but your ridiculous argument that he only does well when there's no pressure has been thoroughly shot to hell.

[Tyrant]

You may say coincidence or revisionist I say trend.

 

You've packed so much into so few words.

[Old Style]

lee had a very clutch hit for us in the '03 playoffs if i'm remembering it correctly

Did you mean to post this in green or are you a Marlins fan?

[questionmarkgrace]

I think it's hilarious how you guys fall in love with a player. I bet your still calling for rich hill right?

 

The guy has done virtually nothing to help this team get over the hump. and Hasn't come through when we needed him to be the producer. That's not a three hitter. Plus everyone with a brain knew that April was going to be our key month that year because of so many divisional games and even though we came back to get into first place in august it came back to bite us. Why don't you at least acknowledge that he's failed at key times. I can say he's had fantastic streches but he always seems to wilt in the pressure spots. He may have hadthat one hit for the marlins but he was 3 for 28 the rest of that playoffs. You may say coincidence or revisionist I say trend.

His still calling has nothing to do with anything.

 

You can plug EVERY baseball player EVER's name into this discussion and that last part would be at least somewhat true. We all know Lee has sucked terribly this year, but your ridiculous argument that he only does well when there's no pressure has been thoroughly shot to hell.

 

shot to hell by what? someone saying lol or jesus? i gave you several examples that you have ignored quite possibly the most pressure situations he has been in as a cub and hes folded up. 2004 0 for the last 17 games! No Rbi's in the playoffs 07 and 08 in 13 chances. He may have finished last year on a hot streak but his numbers sucked against the only team that mattered .268 .300 .393 .693. And of course this year. Middle of the order hitters on a top 5 payroll team should be better than this

[Rob]

Confirmation bias.

 

For more information about this phenomena, talk to CubinNY.

 

Not because he's a psychologist, just because all of his posts are extreme examples of it.

[Sammy Sofa]

coincidence or revisionist I say trend.

 

You didn't point out any trends.

[questionmarkgrace]

coincidence or revisionist I say trend.

 

You didn't point out any trends.

 

trend = correlation with events over time. so all of that stuff didn't happen when the pressure was on? ok fine.

[Sammy Sofa]

coincidence or revisionist I say trend.

 

You didn't point out any trends.

 

trend = correlation with events over time. so all of that stuff didn't happen when the pressure was on? ok fine.

 

You collected a bunch of scattered occurrences to back up your point while ignoring all of the ones that disproved it. You discovered no trends; only different times when he played poorly under a myriad of different circumstances. The only workable conclusion someone could take from your rambling, sloppy argument is that "sometimes Derrek Lee is not a good hitter."

[questionmarkgrace]

coincidence or revisionist I say trend.

 

You didn't point out any trends.

 

trend = correlation with events over time. so all of that stuff didn't happen when the pressure was on? ok fine.

 

You collected a bunch of scattered occurrences to back up your point while ignoring all of the ones that disproved it. You discovered no trends; only different times when he played poorly under a myriad of different circumstances. The only workable conclusion someone could take from your rambling, sloppy argument is that "sometimes Derrek Lee is not a good hitter."

 

Its not sometimes, its that these situations are all connected by way of being pressure or clutch situations. show me other similar situations where he hit the cover off the ball and I'll believe you. But, I suspect you can't or else you would have posted them by now. no one has said anything remotely significant to convince me otherwise. the only point of relevance was that he finished last year on a tear. Granted he sure did that. However, i replied that he was pretty poor in producing vs over 50 teams and against the only team that mattered, the cardinals, he was down right horrible. That should at the least temper that statement. you haven't said anything to disprove his playoff woes, or the drastic stretch in 2004 or the fact that he sucked this year.

[17 Seconds]

james loney is a 1B with a .752 ops and is on pace for about 100 rbis. is he a badass "run producer"?

 

no, because RBIs tell you absolutely nothing and the term "run producer" makes you sound like dave kaplan.

[Sammy Sofa]

What is it with people here demanding that others "prove" their completely ass-backwards point wrong?

 

OK, first of all, you didn't "prove" that Lee is unclutch or can't handle pressure situations because all you did was cherry pick scenarios where that backed up your point. Are you meaning to tell us that in Lee's entire career (or even just his career with the Cubs) those or all or most of the pressure/clutch situations he's faced? Of course not, therefore your argument collapses from the jump off.

 

But just for shits and giggles, let's toss something out there: you bring up a bad stretch against the Cardinals. During Lee's time here the Cardinals was the one team the Cubs would almost always have to look to take out to do well, right? If he can't handle that pressure, than why does he have a .313 .398 .550 .948 line against them? Hell, if you buy into clutch stats he's got a remarkably consistent OPS across all the major "clutch" situations between .828 and .896. If he's consistently dogging it in pressure situations, then how has he maintained those career numbers? Nobody is bashing your points because we "love" Lee or want him hitting 3rd right now; it's because you presented a completely halfassed argument that flies in the face of the bigger picture and requires ignoring the majority of his career.

[questionmarkgrace]

james loney is a 1B with a .752 ops and is on pace for about 100 rbis. is he a badass "run producer"?

 

no, because RBIs tell you absolutely nothing and the term "run producer" makes you sound like dave kaplan.

 

thanks but I posted his complete lines for some of the down years. no rbi's with men on base is a lazy mans way to look at his hitting with risp in the playoffs which is not available for some reason.

[Rob]

This would be comical if it weren't so sad.

[questionmarkgrace]

What is it with people here demanding that others "prove" their completely ass-backwards point wrong?

 

OK, first of all, you didn't "prove" that Lee is unclutch or can't handle pressure situations because all you did was cherry pick scenarios where that backed up your point. Are you meaning to tell us that in Lee's entire career (or even just his career with the Cubs) those or all or most of the pressure/clutch situations he's faced? Of course not, therefore your argument collapses from the jump off.

 

But just for [expletive] and giggles, let's toss something out there: you bring up a bad stretch against the Cardinals. During Lee's time here the Cardinals was the one team the Cubs would almost always have to look to take out to do well, right? If he can't handle that pressure, than why does he have a .313 .398 .550 .948 line against them? Hell, if you buy into clutch stats he's got a remarkably consistent OPS across all the major "clutch" situations between .828 and .896. If he's consistently dogging it in pressure situations, then how has he maintained those career numbers? Nobody is bashing your points because we "love" Lee or want him hitting 3rd right now; it's because you presented a completely halfassed argument that flies in the face of the bigger picture and requires ignoring the majority of his career.

 

no the difference here is micro vs macro. If you choose to look at cumulative stats to tell you how clutch a player is then you are fooling yourself. A "clutch" situation vs. cardinals and the same situation vs the nationals is, inevitably not the same. Arguably there is nothing clutch about even a grandslam vs the nationals of the past 5 years. Nor is a clutch situation in the playoffs the same as in the regular season. if a player is a decent hitter than over a season or tenure with a team the law of averages weighs out in his favor but it hides the fact that there are possibly smaller trends that have occurred or are recurring. maybe against a team or a particular type of pitcher or key situation. I'm not trying to look at the bigger picture of what he has been as a player. for the most part he has been pretty good. I'm looking at the high pressure situations he has had as a cub. when the pressure was greatest for the team and for him as a run producer. The 07,08 playoffs are obvious, the 04 collapse too, this year he is no where to be found early now he starts hitting after the pressure is off, etc.

[Rob]

Okay, here's a challenge for you.

 

Name a player that I can't cherry pick stats for to show they wilt under pressure.

[Tryptamine]

What is it with people here demanding that others "prove" their completely ass-backwards point wrong?

 

OK, first of all, you didn't "prove" that Lee is unclutch or can't handle pressure situations because all you did was cherry pick scenarios where that backed up your point. Are you meaning to tell us that in Lee's entire career (or even just his career with the Cubs) those or all or most of the pressure/clutch situations he's faced? Of course not, therefore your argument collapses from the jump off.

 

But just for [expletive] and giggles, let's toss something out there: you bring up a bad stretch against the Cardinals. During Lee's time here the Cardinals was the one team the Cubs would almost always have to look to take out to do well, right? If he can't handle that pressure, than why does he have a .313 .398 .550 .948 line against them? Hell, if you buy into clutch stats he's got a remarkably consistent OPS across all the major "clutch" situations between .828 and .896. If he's consistently dogging it in pressure situations, then how has he maintained those career numbers? Nobody is bashing your points because we "love" Lee or want him hitting 3rd right now; it's because you presented a completely halfassed argument that flies in the face of the bigger picture and requires ignoring the majority of his career.

 

no the difference here is micro vs macro. If you choose to look at cumulative stats to tell you how clutch a player is then you are fooling yourself. A "clutch" situation vs. cardinals and the same situation vs the nationals is, inevitably not the same. Arguably there is nothing clutch about even a grandslam vs the nationals of the past 5 years. Nor is a clutch situation in the playoffs the same as in the regular season. if a player is a decent hitter than over a season or tenure with a team the law of averages weighs out in his favor but it hides the fact that there are possibly smaller trends that have occurred or are recurring. maybe against a team or a particular type of pitcher or key situation. I'm not trying to look at the bigger picture of what he has been as a player. for the most part he has been pretty good. I'm looking at the high pressure situations he has had as a cub. when the pressure was greatest for the team and for him as a run producer. The 07,08 playoffs are obvious, the 04 collapse too, this year he is no where to be found early now he starts hitting after the pressure is off, etc.

 

I could drag this out for a long time but I'll just focus on the bolded. So there is nothing clutch about playing well against a team like the Nationals? Do those wins not count towards the playoff race? Beating the Cardinals is fantastic especially when they're fighting the Cubs for a playoff spot, but the games against the other teams are just as significant. Also, I have never in my life seen someone ever get mad at a player for batting .545 in a series. That's like being given a Lamborghini and crying that it's yellow and not red.

[Tracer Bullet]

What is it with people here demanding that others "prove" their completely ass-backwards point wrong?

 

OK, first of all, you didn't "prove" that Lee is unclutch or can't handle pressure situations because all you did was cherry pick scenarios where that backed up your point. Are you meaning to tell us that in Lee's entire career (or even just his career with the Cubs) those or all or most of the pressure/clutch situations he's faced? Of course not, therefore your argument collapses from the jump off.

 

But just for [expletive] and giggles, let's toss something out there: you bring up a bad stretch against the Cardinals. During Lee's time here the Cardinals was the one team the Cubs would almost always have to look to take out to do well, right? If he can't handle that pressure, than why does he have a .313 .398 .550 .948 line against them? Hell, if you buy into clutch stats he's got a remarkably consistent OPS across all the major "clutch" situations between .828 and .896. If he's consistently dogging it in pressure situations, then how has he maintained those career numbers? Nobody is bashing your points because we "love" Lee or want him hitting 3rd right now; it's because you presented a completely halfassed argument that flies in the face of the bigger picture and requires ignoring the majority of his career.

 

no the difference here is micro vs macro. If you choose to look at cumulative stats to tell you how clutch a player is then you are fooling yourself. A "clutch" situation vs. cardinals and the same situation vs the nationals is, inevitably not the same. Arguably there is nothing clutch about even a grandslam vs the nationals of the past 5 years. Nor is a clutch situation in the playoffs the same as in the regular season. if a player is a decent hitter than over a season or tenure with a team the law of averages weighs out in his favor but it hides the fact that there are possibly smaller trends that have occurred or are recurring. maybe against a team or a particular type of pitcher or key situation. I'm not trying to look at the bigger picture of what he has been as a player. for the most part he has been pretty good. I'm looking at the high pressure situations he has had as a cub. when the pressure was greatest for the team and for him as a run producer. The 07,08 playoffs are obvious, the 04 collapse too, this year he is no where to be found early now he starts hitting after the pressure is off, etc.

 

I could drag this out for a long time but I'll just focus on the bolded. So there is nothing clutch about playing well against a team like the Nationals? Do those wins not count towards the playoff race? Beating the Cardinals is fantastic especially when they're fighting the Cubs for a playoff spot, but the games against the other teams are just as significant. Also, I have never in my life seen someone ever get mad at a player for batting .545 in a series. That's like being given a Lamborghini and crying that it's yellow and not red.

 

If someone gave me a yellow Lamborghini, I would cry like nobody's business.