Cashner called up; Grabow to DL

[mhuber92211]

While I disagree with the sentiment that this will completely derail his future as a starter, I really dont think this is the right move or a rational move. The pen is not the problem it once was, and what we need is 1 more quality righty, which we could surely get without doing this.

 

It probably won't completely derail but it really knocks his chances of being a successful starter next season since he can't log 120+ innings next year.

 

Would he have been in the big leagues next year as a starter? Does the MLB experience help him ease the transition from AAA to MLB as a starter?

 

He likley wouldn't start this year with the Cubs. Could he in 2011? Probably. Can he Still? Probably. Does the MLB bullpen experience help him and the Cubs this year? YES. Good move all around actually.

[SouthSideRyan]

While I disagree with the sentiment that this will completely derail his future as a starter, I really dont think this is the right move or a rational move. The pen is not the problem it once was, and what we need is 1 more quality righty, which we could surely get without doing this.

 

It probably won't completely derail but it really knocks his chances of being a successful starter next season since he can't log 120+ innings next year.

 

Would he have been in the big leagues next year as a starter? Does the MLB experience help him ease the transition from AAA to MLB as a starter?

 

He likley wouldn't start this year with the Cubs. Could he in 2011? Probably. Can he Still? Probably. Does the MLB bullpen experience help him and the Cubs this year? YES. Good move all around actually.

 

Cashner can start next year with the Cubs, but it certainly won't be for a full season. You're asking him to double his innings total in one year.

[evv98]

Hey Cubs. Grabow isn't hurt. He just sucks.

 

He went on the DL with ruptured suck.

 

Will Cashner be available for today's game?

 

His suck is just fine.

[Guest]

While I disagree with the sentiment that this will completely derail his future as a starter, I really dont think this is the right move or a rational move. The pen is not the problem it once was, and what we need is 1 more quality righty, which we could surely get without doing this.

 

It probably won't completely derail but it really knocks his chances of being a successful starter next season since he can't log 120+ innings next year.

 

Would he have been in the big leagues next year as a starter? Does the MLB experience help him ease the transition from AAA to MLB as a starter?

 

He likley wouldn't start this year with the Cubs. Could he in 2011? Probably. Can he Still? Probably. Does the MLB bullpen experience help him and the Cubs this year? YES. Good move all around actually.

 

That's the point. He's not starting with the Cubs in 2010. If he starts with the team in 2011, he's never thrown more than 100 innings in a season; that's not going to cut it for someone in the rotation for a full season. You ask for anything more than a standard bump up of 20 innings and you're begging for major arm injuries. But it's ok, the Cubs like to do that with young aces.

[Careless]

Unless Gorzelanny is dealt, my guess is Grabow to the DL, Guzman to the 60 Day(that hasn't happened yet, right?) .

Yes, maybe I missed something, but why the eff is a player who hasn't played all season not on the 60 day DL 57 days in?

[NCCubFan]

He is now. He was transferred to make room on the 40-man for Cashner.

[Cubswin11]

While I disagree with the sentiment that this will completely derail his future as a starter, I really dont think this is the right move or a rational move. The pen is not the problem it once was, and what we need is 1 more quality righty, which we could surely get without doing this.

 

It probably won't completely derail but it really knocks his chances of being a successful starter next season since he can't log 120+ innings next year.

I don't completely agree with the move but it's not out of the question for him to get into the 120IP range this year is it? He has 57IP logged in the minors so far this year, if he stays up in the whole bullpen all season he will probably get another 30-40 more. Plus if we are out of it at the end of the year I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a few starts. He could always be sent to AZ fall league or winter leagues to continue to log innings/build up stamina. In the grand scheme of things I don't think this messes him up as a starter a year or more down the road when the time comes a spot opens in the rotation for him/he forces his way in.

[SouthSideRyan]

Unless Gorzelanny is dealt, my guess is Grabow to the DL, Guzman to the 60 Day(that hasn't happened yet, right?) .

Yes, maybe I missed something, but why the eff is a player who hasn't played all season not on the 60 day DL 57 days in?

 

It's not really necessary until the roster spot is needed.

[jersey cubs fan]

Unless Gorzelanny is dealt, my guess is Grabow to the DL, Guzman to the 60 Day(that hasn't happened yet, right?) .

Yes, maybe I missed something, but why the eff is a player who hasn't played all season not on the 60 day DL 57 days in?

 

It's not really necessary until the roster spot is needed.

 

And I have a feeling there's some sort of service time situation involved where being on a 40-man roster and not the 60day DL helps Guzman get his pension or something.

[SouthSideRyan]

Unless Gorzelanny is dealt, my guess is Grabow to the DL, Guzman to the 60 Day(that hasn't happened yet, right?) .

Yes, maybe I missed something, but why the eff is a player who hasn't played all season not on the 60 day DL 57 days in?

 

It's not really necessary until the roster spot is needed.

 

And I have a feeling there's some sort of service time situation involved where being on a 40-man roster and not the 60day DL helps Guzman get his pension or something.

 

I don't think that's true. At least as far as service time towards reaching free agency is concerned, being on the 60 day DL counts the same as being on the active roster. It's why Will Ohman became arb-eligible after like 1 active season.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't think that's true. At least as far as service time towards reaching free agency is concerned, being on the 60 day DL counts the same as being on the active roster. It's why Will Ohman became arb-eligible after like 1 active season.

 

Yeah, not a free agency/arbitration thing. I was just thinking specifically about pension eligibility. I feel like they did something like this for somebody else before (kept him on 15 day DL unnecessarily) and it was mentioned at the time.

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't think that's true. At least as far as service time towards reaching free agency is concerned, being on the 60 day DL counts the same as being on the active roster. It's why Will Ohman became arb-eligible after like 1 active season.

 

Yeah, not a free agency/arbitration thing. I was just thinking specifically about pension eligibility. I feel like they did something like this for somebody else before (kept him on 15 day DL unnecessarily) and it was mentioned at the time.

 

It sounds familiar, but I want to say that was a keeping a guy on the DL vs releasing him issue. I want to say it was Chad Fox.

[Prizefight]

Can he hit more than .162? Pencil him in the #4 spot and maybe this would help.

[mhuber92211]

While I disagree with the sentiment that this will completely derail his future as a starter, I really dont think this is the right move or a rational move. The pen is not the problem it once was, and what we need is 1 more quality righty, which we could surely get without doing this.

 

It probably won't completely derail but it really knocks his chances of being a successful starter next season since he can't log 120+ innings next year.

 

Would he have been in the big leagues next year as a starter? Does the MLB experience help him ease the transition from AAA to MLB as a starter?

 

He likley wouldn't start this year with the Cubs. Could he in 2011? Probably. Can he Still? Probably. Does the MLB bullpen experience help him and the Cubs this year? YES. Good move all around actually.

 

That's the point. He's not starting with the Cubs in 2010. If he starts with the team in 2011, he's never thrown more than 100 innings in a season; that's not going to cut it for someone in the rotation for a full season. You ask for anything more than a standard bump up of 20 innings and you're begging for major arm injuries. But it's ok, the Cubs like to do that with young aces.

 

I understand that his arm is not conditioned for more than 120 innings but even he he got to that total this year, would you still expect 200 in 2011? Likely not. 150, more plausible. If he throws 80 this year, 120 next year is within the realm of possibility and that is a starter's load fora rookie pitcher anyhow. Like the Jabba rules right?

 

I dont understand the big deal of pushing him up in MLB and only getting 80 innings this year. To me the 80 innings plus 4 months of MLB experience is better than 120 IP in Iowa. I think what the issue really is the Cubs history of arm injuries with these cases and not the inning totals. Obviously there are ways to condition an arm without having to throw innings. All MLB does it every spring.

[SouthSideRyan]

Why would Cashner only get 120 innings in Iowa?

[Guest]

I don't know about you, but I'd like Cashner to be conditioned to make it past labor day before he hits arbitration. Jeopardizing his future value as a starter, not to mention his development, just because John Grabow is terrible is a really bad idea. How many pitchers currently in the pen are having a good year? Marmol and Marshall have been lock down at the end of the pen, we're moving Gorzelanny(whose FIP this year is .01 worse than Lincecum, 8th in MLB) there too. Stevens and Howry have given us 9 scoreless innings since they've been added to the roster. Where's the need? More to the point, where's the need so dire that we take our top prospect who needs innings because of his reliever background and cautious MiLB workload and put him in the pen, jeopardizing his utility as a starter down the road?

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't know about you, but I'd like Cashner to be conditioned to make it past labor day before he hits arbitration. Jeopardizing his future value as a starter, not to mention his development, just because John Grabow is terrible is a really bad idea. How many pitchers currently in the pen are having a good year? Marmol and Marshall have been lock down at the end of the pen, we're moving Gorzelanny(whose FIP this year is .01 worse than Lincecum, 8th in MLB) there too. Stevens and Howry have given us 9 scoreless innings since they've been added to the roster. Where's the need? More to the point, where's the need so dire that we take our top prospect who needs innings because of his reliever background and cautious MiLB workload and put him in the pen, jeopardizing his utility as a starter down the road?

 

Howry sucks.

 

Who's to say that having him go longer and longer as a starter isn't a risk? Sure this pushes back the timetable for when you can count on him as a 180-200 inning pitcher. But why do you need to make sure he can go past labor day by the time he hits arbitration? If anything, a lack of 200 inning greatness would just lower his potential arbitration earnings, and they'd still control him for a few years. He turns 24 this year, the Cubs control him until he's 30. I really don't get the outrage about Cashner being used as a reliever this season.

[SouthSideRyan]

I guess I'm not getting your angle here gooney. Who's to say pushing him longer and longer doesn't risk him? Well, do you want him to never be a starter? Shouldn't we be more concerned with getting good league minimum years out of him compared to keeping his arbitration awards down?

[jersey cubs fan]

I guess I'm not getting your angle here gooney. Who's to say pushing him longer and longer doesn't risk him? Well, do you want him to never be a starter? Shouldn't we be more concerned with getting good league minimum years out of him compared to keeping his arbitration awards down?

 

I would think the major concern should be getting good years out of him, league minimum or not. The primary goal should not be to maximize his first three major league seasons.

 

Again, it's not ideal, but I don't get the outrage. It's a reasonable way of using the guy, assuming they use him.

[SouthSideRyan]

I would think the major concern should be getting good years out of him, league minimum or not. The primary goal should not be to maximize his first three major league seasons.

 

Is there any reason to believe maximizing his first 3 seasons would minimize the value in the following years?

[Guest]

Howry sucks.

 

Thankfully we've now demoted him to 6th best reliever instead of merely 5th.

 

Who's to say that having him go longer and longer as a starter isn't a risk? Sure this pushes back the timetable for when you can count on him as a 180-200 inning pitcher. But why do you need to make sure he can go past labor day by the time he hits arbitration? If anything, a lack of 200 inning greatness would just lower his potential arbitration earnings, and they'd still control him for a few years. He turns 24 this year, the Cubs control him until he's 30. I really don't get the outrage about Cashner being used as a reliever this season.

 

Cashner isn't the average minor league SP prospect. He was a reliever at TCU. He was (wisely) very limited last year coming back from the oblique injury and building up endurance after being a reliever prior. He needs starter's innings to continue to develop that 3rd pitch, and also just to make sure that he's not 30 before he can throw 200 IP without risking injury. Even if he gets used at a Marmolian rate the rest of the year, he'll barely make it to last year's usage, and he won't be building up any endurance to length of starts or the length of the season. So next year when there's a very good chance he's one of our 5 best starters, what happens? Do you shut him down at the trade deadline? Just have him jump 100 IP and risk his arm exploding?

 

The worst part is that there's no need for this to happen, since the bullpen is more than fine right now.

[jersey cubs fan]

Cashner isn't the average minor league SP prospect. He was a reliever at TCU. He was (wisely) very limited last year coming back from the oblique injury and building up endurance after being a reliever prior. He needs starter's innings to continue to develop that 3rd pitch, and also just to make sure that he's not 30 before he can throw 200 IP without risking injury. Even if he gets used at a Marmolian rate the rest of the year, he'll barely make it to last year's usage, and he won't be building up any endurance to length of starts or the length of the season. So next year when there's a very good chance he's one of our 5 best starters, what happens? Do you shut him down at the trade deadline? Just have him jump 100 IP and risk his arm exploding?

 

The worst part is that there's no need for this to happen, since the bullpen is more than fine right now.

I'm not sure you can say it's just fine now based on a couple innings from Howry and Stevens. It's been a mess all season and Marshall/Marmol are the only parts that aren't a mess. Gorzallany is no sure thing back there either. And if that is the worst thing, then I still don't get the outrage. He can go back to Iowa when they fall out of it in August, he can pitch this fall. He can work on stretching out all offseason and next spring. He's at 57 IP already this season, if he stays in the majors it wouldn't take a crazy pace to get another 43 to match last season's total (just 10 2/3 innings per month, or a 65 inning pace).

[SouthSideRyan]

Matching last season's total does nothing for his development.

[jersey cubs fan]

Matching last season's total does nothing for his development.

 

It doesn't derail it.

[Guest]

Cashner isn't the average minor league SP prospect. He was a reliever at TCU. He was (wisely) very limited last year coming back from the oblique injury and building up endurance after being a reliever prior. He needs starter's innings to continue to develop that 3rd pitch, and also just to make sure that he's not 30 before he can throw 200 IP without risking injury. Even if he gets used at a Marmolian rate the rest of the year, he'll barely make it to last year's usage, and he won't be building up any endurance to length of starts or the length of the season. So next year when there's a very good chance he's one of our 5 best starters, what happens? Do you shut him down at the trade deadline? Just have him jump 100 IP and risk his arm exploding?

 

The worst part is that there's no need for this to happen, since the bullpen is more than fine right now.

I'm not sure you can say it's just fine now based on a couple innings from Howry and Stevens. It's been a mess all season and Marshall/Marmol are the only parts that aren't a mess. Gorzallany is no sure thing back there either. And if that is the worst thing, then I still don't get the outrage. He can go back to Iowa when they fall out of it in August, he can pitch this fall. He can work on stretching out all offseason and next spring. He's at 57 IP already this season, if he stays in the majors it wouldn't take a crazy pace to get another 43 to match last season's total (just 10 2/3 innings per month, or a 65 inning pace).

 

If the uncertainty of our 3rd-5th relievers is the problem, then I'm more than okay saying that the bullpen is just fine considering the people that are in there.

 

And sure, Cashner can go back to starting in Iowa later, but odds are he won't, and even if he does, the above just illustrates how unnecessary the whole thing is. 100 IP consistently starting and 100 IP from starting for 6 weeks and then relieving for 4 months is not the same thing. The point is that Cashner is already at the far end of the "not stretched out for starting" spectrum. Reaching last year's IP is not a goal, it's an absolute necessity that he must go beyond.