Re: Bears Offseason Thread

[jersey cubs fan]

it's easy to overlook the fact that we made a huge improvement at the most important position on the line last year by going from historically bad performance with pace to solid and young production out of williams... that's significant

 

I'm not overlooking anything. Williams is the first significant draft pick in nearly a decade on the line. It's he and Columbo and nothing else. There are 5 positions to fill on the line, and simply adding one guy does litlte to solve the overall problem. They still have a way past his prime Olin Kreutz as the highest paid incredibly immature leader of the group, and they have crappy guards and despite the hopes, a huge question mark at tackle.

 

It's 5 spots that need to be filled. They spend draft picks on safeties every year (and suck at it), where you only play 2 guys, but they rarely invest much more than a 7th on the offensive line, which is much more important.

[David]

it's easy to overlook the fact that we made a huge improvement at the most important position on the line last year by going from historically bad performance with pace to solid and young production out of williams... that's significant

 

I'm not overlooking anything. Williams is the first significant draft pick in nearly a decade on the line. It's he and Columbo and nothing else. There are 5 positions to fill on the line, and simply adding one guy does litlte to solve the overall problem. They still have a way past his prime Olin Kreutz as the highest paid incredibly immature leader of the group, and they have crappy guards and despite the hopes, a huge question mark at tackle.

 

It's 5 spots that need to be filled. They spend draft picks on safeties every year (and suck at it), where you only play 2 guys, but they rarely invest much more than a 7th on the offensive line, which is much more important.

 

 

i was really responding to sulley moreso than you. my comment didn't really have anything to do with to what extent they've addressed the line in this year's and past drafts and dealt directly with how much better the line should be than it was for most of last year.

 

that one move upgraded two (out of five) positions, and significantly upgraded the most important spot on the line.

Edited April 29, 2010 by David

[jersey cubs fan]

Who were the two good players we got rid of on defense? I'll give you Brown but am I missing someone else?

 

Peppers replaced Ogunleye, a really nice upgrade, but then they got rid of Brown as well. Peppers is clearly the best of that group, but Ogunleye and Brown were both nice players. What they each needed was an impact guy on the other side though.

 

This coaching staff and front office has not made a correct decision since the super bowl in terms of deciding when a guy was ready to take over for an incumbent. I don't trust them to properly evaluate whoever it is that's going to play more at the other end spot, or any of these safeties now on the roster. They probably made the wrong decision on Harris three years ago, but now he's a defensive back who is four years older than when last played for this team and wasn't good enough and still is not all that good. The problem with this defense was they were a young athletic bunch (something that was needed for this scheme) but they got old. They got older on this Williams for Harris deal, they got an old guy in Peppers and they invested an obscene amount in an old backup RB and an old TE who has done nothing in his career.

 

They are making moves and making investments, but they seem incredibly short sighted and not all that impactful.

[jersey cubs fan]

that one move upgraded two (out of five) positions, and significantly upgraded the most important spot on the line.

 

I don't see how it is possible to claim it upgraded two positions. And it wasn't much of a move, they just installed the franchise left tackle they drafted 2 years ago to do the job they drafted him for.

[David]

that one move upgraded two (out of five) positions, and significantly upgraded the most important spot on the line.

 

I don't see how it is possible to claim it upgraded two positions. And it wasn't much of a move, they just installed the franchise left tackle they drafted 2 years ago to do the job they drafted him for.

 

 

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&page=3&surn=W&playerid=4328

 

williams graded out very poorly for the time spent at RT, probably because he had played on the left side for the vast majority of his life... it was hard to be much worse than he was...

 

pace was also horrifically bad on the left side

 

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&page=&surn=P&playerid=229

 

 

while shaffer was ok as williams's replacement on the right

 

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=Shaffer&playerid=1206

 

 

granted, we're talking about samples of 5 and 11 games, but it's a 16 game season and those are fairly significant chunks of snaps.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't buy that at all. They didn't upgrade 2 positions, they upgraded 1, but only did so by letting their franchise left tackle play left tackle, and still have 4 spots that vary from bad to highly questionable and/or declining rapidly. They have zero players with a sustained track record of quality play on the line.

[David]

I don't buy that at all. They didn't upgrade 2 positions, they upgraded 1, but only did so by letting their franchise left tackle play left tackle, and still have 4 spots that vary from bad to highly questionable and/or declining rapidly. They have zero players with a sustained track record of quality play on the line.

 

 

going from very poor play to about average on the right side wasn't an upgrade?

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't buy that at all. They didn't upgrade 2 positions, they upgraded 1, but only did so by letting their franchise left tackle play left tackle, and still have 4 spots that vary from bad to highly questionable and/or declining rapidly. They have zero players with a sustained track record of quality play on the line.

 

 

going from very poor play to about average on the right side wasn't an upgrade?

 

Going from Williams to what they have is not an upgrade. Those short term grades mean very little, especially on an offensive line, which is a unit of 5 players all depending on 4 other teammates for how well his play looks. The fact remains they have one guy, Williams, who is even close to an ideal player for his position. They are old and incredibly shaky at every other spot. And Williams history still leaves him as somewhat questionable.

[David]

I don't buy that at all. They didn't upgrade 2 positions, they upgraded 1, but only did so by letting their franchise left tackle play left tackle, and still have 4 spots that vary from bad to highly questionable and/or declining rapidly. They have zero players with a sustained track record of quality play on the line.

 

 

going from very poor play to about average on the right side wasn't an upgrade?

 

Going from Williams to what they have is not an upgrade. Those short term grades mean very little, especially on an offensive line, which is a unit of 5 players all depending on 4 other teammates for how well his play looks. The fact remains they have one guy, Williams, who is even close to an ideal player for his position. They are old and incredibly shaky at every other spot. And Williams history still leaves him as somewhat questionable.

 

I'll grant you the point about the sample size and even acknowledged as much, but considering the actual circumstances, it's not a big leap to make that Williams would have a hard time on the right side. He was being asked to play the opposite side to what he had played all his life... I believe he only played on the left side (tackle and some guard), and being asked to do everything in reverse can't be easy. When the offensive line really sucked, Williams's play at RT was probably a big contributor (along with, obviously, Pace's horrid play).

 

I can't really argue against being skeptical about it, but all I'm attempting to do is make a case for why the line played better down the stretch (which it did), and why that improved play might not have been a fluke.

[rawaction]

Who were the two good players we got rid of on defense? I'll give you Brown but am I missing someone else?

 

Peppers replaced Ogunleye, a really nice upgrade, but then they got rid of Brown as well. Peppers is clearly the best of that group, but Ogunleye and Brown were both nice players. What they each needed was an impact guy on the other side though.

 

This coaching staff and front office has not made a correct decision since the super bowl in terms of deciding when a guy was ready to take over for an incumbent. I don't trust them to properly evaluate whoever it is that's going to play more at the other end spot, or any of these safeties now on the roster. They probably made the wrong decision on Harris three years ago, but now he's a defensive back who is four years older than when last played for this team and wasn't good enough and still is not all that good. The problem with this defense was they were a young athletic bunch (something that was needed for this scheme) but they got old. They got older on this Williams for Harris deal, they got an old guy in Peppers and they invested an obscene amount in an old backup RB and an old TE who has done nothing in his career.

 

They are making moves and making investments, but they seem incredibly short sighted and not all that impactful.

 

You talk about the defense being older, but Peppers is younger than both starting DEs were last year, and they get younger and more athletic by letting Anderson, Idonije, and hopefully Wootten play instead of Brown. While, Harris is 4 years older than he was last time he was a Bear, he's just 28 years old. And he became a better player in Carolina who should be near his prime still. They also have continously brought in young LBs (none of whom could crack the rotation other than Roach) and have several young DBs (Bowman, Moore x 2, Graham, Afalava, Manning, Wright, Steltz). The only post prime players on the D now are Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs and Tillman...the first 3 are all still capable of playing at a Pro-bowl level. Tillman is still the best CB on the roster.

[jersey cubs fan]

You talk about the defense being older, but Peppers is younger than both starting DEs were last year, and they get younger and more athletic by letting Anderson, Idonije, and hopefully Wootten play instead of Brown. While, Harris is 4 years older than he was last time he was a Bear, he's just 28 years old. And he became a better player in Carolina who should be near his prime still. They also have continously brought in young LBs (none of whom could crack the rotation other than Roach) and have several young DBs (Bowman, Moore x 2, Graham, Afalava, Manning, Wright, Steltz). The only post prime players on the D now are Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs and Tillman...the first 3 are all still capable of playing at a Pro-bowl level. Tillman is still the best CB on the roster.

 

I wasn't saying they went out and got worse, but what you are writing seems to me to just reiterate my point that they are just running in place despite multiple changes. I don't see the upgrade. Tillman still being the best LB isn't a good thing. The who is going to play safety question may have been answered, but it's still very much in doubt how well they will play. And the line remains a major point of doubt.

[Soul]

You talk about the defense being older, but Peppers is younger than both starting DEs were last year, and they get younger and more athletic by letting Anderson, Idonije, and hopefully Wootten play instead of Brown. While, Harris is 4 years older than he was last time he was a Bear, he's just 28 years old. And he became a better player in Carolina who should be near his prime still. They also have continously brought in young LBs (none of whom could crack the rotation other than Roach) and have several young DBs (Bowman, Moore x 2, Graham, Afalava, Manning, Wright, Steltz). The only post prime players on the D now are Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs and Tillman...the first 3 are all still capable of playing at a Pro-bowl level. Tillman is still the best CB on the roster.

 

I wasn't saying they went out and got worse, but what you are writing seems to me to just reiterate my point that they are just running in place despite multiple changes. I don't see the upgrade. Tillman still being the best LB isn't a good thing. The who is going to play safety question may have been answered, but it's still very much in doubt how well they will play. And the line remains a major point of doubt.

 

It's not much of a doubt in my mind that Harris will play better than what we had last year.

[jersey cubs fan]

You talk about the defense being older, but Peppers is younger than both starting DEs were last year, and they get younger and more athletic by letting Anderson, Idonije, and hopefully Wootten play instead of Brown. While, Harris is 4 years older than he was last time he was a Bear, he's just 28 years old. And he became a better player in Carolina who should be near his prime still. They also have continously brought in young LBs (none of whom could crack the rotation other than Roach) and have several young DBs (Bowman, Moore x 2, Graham, Afalava, Manning, Wright, Steltz). The only post prime players on the D now are Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs and Tillman...the first 3 are all still capable of playing at a Pro-bowl level. Tillman is still the best CB on the roster.

 

I wasn't saying they went out and got worse, but what you are writing seems to me to just reiterate my point that they are just running in place despite multiple changes. I don't see the upgrade. Tillman still being the best LB isn't a good thing. The who is going to play safety question may have been answered, but it's still very much in doubt how well they will play. And the line remains a major point of doubt.

 

It's not much of a doubt in my mind that Harris will play better than what we had last year.

 

Tommie? There's should be doubt. He's running on 2 seasons of "coming off surgery" excuse. He hasn't been close since and is a head case.

[Banedon]

You talk about the defense being older, but Peppers is younger than both starting DEs were last year, and they get younger and more athletic by letting Anderson, Idonije, and hopefully Wootten play instead of Brown. While, Harris is 4 years older than he was last time he was a Bear, he's just 28 years old. And he became a better player in Carolina who should be near his prime still. They also have continously brought in young LBs (none of whom could crack the rotation other than Roach) and have several young DBs (Bowman, Moore x 2, Graham, Afalava, Manning, Wright, Steltz). The only post prime players on the D now are Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs and Tillman...the first 3 are all still capable of playing at a Pro-bowl level. Tillman is still the best CB on the roster.

 

I wasn't saying they went out and got worse, but what you are writing seems to me to just reiterate my point that they are just running in place despite multiple changes. I don't see the upgrade. Tillman still being the best LB isn't a good thing. The who is going to play safety question may have been answered, but it's still very much in doubt how well they will play. And the line remains a major point of doubt.

 

It's not much of a doubt in my mind that Harris will play better than what we had last year.

 

Tommie? There's should be doubt. He's running on 2 seasons of "coming off surgery" excuse. He hasn't been close since and is a head case.

 

I'm pretty sure he meant Chris Harris, since you said it was in doubt how the safeties will play.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm pretty sure he meant Chris Harris, since you said it was in doubt how the safeties will play.

 

Oh, I see. What we had, not what he did. Yeah, well maybe he'll be better, I'd hope. But I also think the safety blame has been overdone. There were a lot of things wrong with the defense, and there has been for three years. They sort of addressed it, but they are still counting on a less than steller line perhaps doing more than they are capable of, and a linebacker core that has struggled to stay healthy.

[Banedon]

With what the Bears had available (draft wise and budget wise for FA's), I think they've done a heckuva lot better job than I thought they would do. That's how I'm measuring it. I'm still not happy about Brown's release, but I think they've done a good job addressing safety (it was a weakness...how big of one can be debated, but it was a weakness), and they really only lost a bit of LB depth, which was already a deep position. Kevin Payne's loss isn't much of a loss if you ask me. I never really saw much about the guy that showed me that he was going to amount to much. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.

 

I'd love to get the O-line shored up, but really, the choices that they've had late in the draft and through free agency weren't anything to get terribly excited over. It doesn't help much this year, but I'm sure whoever's doing the draft next year...be it Jerry or his replacement, I think OL is going to definitely be a draft priority next year with the early picks.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd love to get the O-line shored up, but really, the choices that they've had late in the draft and through free agency weren't anything to get terribly excited over. It doesn't help much this year, but I'm sure whoever's doing the draft next year...be it Jerry or his replacement, I think OL is going to definitely be a draft priority next year with the early picks.

 

The thing with Angelo is that when he was in Tampa, they were notorious for having a weak offensive line. And he's spent 2 first rounders, then signed varying levels of veterans in a decade with the Bears. In Tampa it worked since the defense dominate for longer than the Bears did. Angelo definitely has a weak spot on offensive line, and the biggest problem has been how often he just ignores it. They just don't matter to him, in comparison to how much effort other teams put into the line. I have my doubts that it will be addressed early next year if he's still around.

[jersey cubs fan]

With what the Bears had available (draft wise and budget wise for FA's), I think they've done a heckuva lot better job than I thought they would do.

 

With what they had available, they did an alright job. But they were always going to spend in free agency. With losing big money guys and not having to pay any high priced draft picks, that was a given. I was ecstatic with Peppers replacing Ogunleye. But overall they are just turning over bodies. They still have way too many TE, none of them elite. I'm more pissed than ever about the Gaines Adams trade, and it's kind of ridiculous how much faith so many people are putting in a third round safety to actually start next year. It still comes back to the entire season being put on Cutler's shoulders, with a weak line and questionable receivers.

[rawaction]

I agree, they have done well with what they had in resources as far as money and draft picks.

 

My issue is that this is the best we could have hoped for. And I will never blame the team for the Cutler trade. I would make that deal 100 times out of 100. But they traded out of the 2nd last year, then gave up the 2010 2nd rounder for Gaines Adams, which was a bad idea well before he died. You can't build a long-term contender with no top 75 players. For every Tom Brady steal in the 6th round, there are multiple players picked in the 1st and 2nd rounds who are good players....you know, the way they are supposed to be.

[jersey cubs fan]

I agree, they have done well with what they had in resources as far as money and draft picks.

 

My issue is that this is the best we could have hoped for. And I will never blame the team for the Cutler trade. I would make that deal 100 times out of 100. But they traded out of the 2nd last year, then gave up the 2010 2nd rounder for Gaines Adams, which was a bad idea well before he died. You can't build a long-term contender with no top 75 players. For every Tom Brady steal in the 6th round, there are multiple players picked in the 1st and 2nd rounds who are good players....you know, the way they are supposed to be.

 

I wasn't as worked up about it as you at the time, but I completely agree.

[soapy]

My opinion is that they've done okay with what they had.

 

The Adams trade was horrible (even before he died, as raw mentioned) and they spent what seems to be an absurd amount of money on a blocking TE (which basically led to them releasing Brown). Those are the biggest problems I have. I love the Taylor and Peppers signings and I like the Harris trade.

[Soul]

It is definitely an ongoing source of angst for me to see the OLine ignored like it is by Angelo.

 

He did bring in some OLine help last year, but for the most part it wasn't effective.

 

At this point I just think he sucks at OLine evaluation, so we'll continue to see more of the same from him until he's gone.

[rawaction]

It still comes back to the entire season being put on Cutler's shoulders, with a weak line and questionable receivers.

 

To be honest, that's not as bad a scenario this year. The line is still a problem, but I'd hope they'd be at least a little better with Williams at LT, Omiyale at RT, and hopefully a new LG brought in. Cutler threw for nearly 3700 yards and 25 TDs in a year where everything went wrong, and the team went 7-9. I hope that a full year of Aromashodu on the field and improvements from Hester, Knox, Bennett, and Iglesias make the WR corps decent enough. And you still have the Mike Martz factor. This is the same guy that made the Cowboys think Roy Williams was an elite WR and Mike Furrey a 1000 yard WR.

[soapy]

It still comes back to the entire season being put on Cutler's shoulders, with a weak line and questionable receivers.

 

To be honest, that's not as bad a scenario this year. The line is still a problem, but I'd hope they'd be at least a little better with Williams at LT, Omiyale at RT, and hopefully a new LG brought in. Cutler threw for nearly 3700 yards and 25 TDs in a year where everything went wrong, and the team went 7-9. I hope that a full year of Aromashodu on the field and improvements from Hester, Knox, Bennett, and Iglesias make the WR corps decent enough. And you still have the Mike Martz factor. This is the same guy that made the Cowboys think Roy Williams was an elite WR and Mike Furrey a 1000 yard WR.

 

The Bears get off the bus running the football (poorly), guys. You know that.

[Banedon]

This is the same guy that made the Cowboys think Roy Williams was an elite WR and Mike Furrey a 1000 yard WR.

 

Speak of the devil....

 

Michael C. Wright of ESPNChicago reports that the Bears have recently talked to Mike Furrey's representatives.