Re: Bears Offseason Thread

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Because everything in your world is black and white and revolves purely around the 26 picks.

 

Yes. I'm so black-and-white that I said there was a chance he could still recover and become the quarterback they hope, and that of course the offense around him had a large part to do with his problems.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm still trying to figure out why you want a situation where the Bears can win 7-9 games.

 

 

They just freaking did that.

 

I'm saying Cutler didn't improve our situation, and since he didn't, I'd rather just have the two first-round draft picks back.

 

In his first freaking year, when everything on offense was a mess, and the defense continued to stink. It was one year it what is going to be a 10 year career with the team. Had they not made the trade, they would just be gambling on another completely unknown QB by now.

[Tyrant]

I can't believe you didn't have any friends in high school.

[Sammy Sofa]

Because of the nature of your argument. Your entire case hinges on the picks. You're ignoring everything else and making ridiculous declarations (look at the horrible hypothetical seasons you said you'd welcome) to stick to your point. You're well beyond simply saying "they overpaid."

 

Forgive me for thinking that when a quarterback leads the league in interceptions, that should be the defining portion of his season.

 

Yeah, him still managing to also throw more TD's than he has a in a season plus 3600+ yards with an all but non-existent OL and running game and average group of receivers isn't important at all. Nope, it's just about the picks. That's all that matters.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

You specifically said you'd rather have 2400-yard, 15-TD, 10-pick seasons.

 

You guys were freaking out way, way before I said that. So obviously that can't be the reason you find my opinion wildly unacceptable.

[jersey cubs fan]

Because everything in your world is black and white and revolves purely around the 26 picks.

 

Yes. I'm so black-and-white that I said there was a chance he could still recover and become the quarterback they hope, and that of course the offense around him had a large part to do with his problems.

 

I thought it was just a theoretically possible chance.

[soapy]

I'm still trying to figure out why you want a situation where the Bears can win 7-9 games.

 

 

They just freaking did that.

 

I'm saying Cutler didn't improve our situation, and since he didn't, I'd rather just have the two first-round draft picks back.

 

In his first freaking year, when everything on offense was a mess, and the defense continued to stink. It was one year it what is going to be a 10 year career with the team. Had they not made the trade, they would just be gambling on another completely unknown QB by now.

 

I've already tried this line of reasoning multiple times. He threw 26 picks in 2009. Nothing he did before or is likely to do in the future matters. Don't bother.

[Sammy Sofa]

You specifically said you'd rather have 2400-yard, 15-TD, 10-pick seasons.

 

You guys were freaking out way, way before I said that. So obviously that can't be the reason you find my opinion wildly unacceptable.

 

No, that's just the crowning moment.

[Banedon]

Good lord...was there just 4 pages of Cutler arguments again? FFS.

 

Lets all just agree that Kyle is wrong (because he is, and we all know it) and move along. If he wants to argue with himself, let him. There's a lot of things the Bears are doing today that deservers better discussion than this.

[bukie]

I think saying directly that the Jay Cutler trade didn't work out because he led the league in picks in his first year with the Bears is likely the point at which people vehemently disagreed, while ignoring any and all positives and potential and refusing to address either.

[David]

You specifically said you'd rather have 2400-yard, 15-TD, 10-pick seasons.

 

You guys were freaking out way, way before I said that. So obviously that can't be the reason you find my opinion wildly unacceptable.

 

 

How about deeming the move a bust along the lines of Ben Wallace after one year?

[Magnetic Curses]

I think saying directly that the Jay Cutler trade didn't work out because he led the league in picks in his first year with the Bears is likely the point at which people vehemently disagreed, while ignoring any and all positives and potential and refusing to address either.

 

but but but but he said there was a possibility cutler could be good!!!!!!!

[Sammy Sofa]

Kyle, why is 26 picks at age 26 so disastrous but 23 picks at age 25 not a big deal?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Yeah, him still managing to also throw more TD's than he has a in a season plus 3600+ yards with an all but non-existent OL and running game and average group of receivers isn't important at all. Nope, it's just about the picks. That's all that matters.

 

Well, instead of going back and forth with "Well, YOU only care about picks" and "YOU only care about the TDs," let's lay it all out there:

 

20th in yards per attempt

13th in yards

19th in completion percentage

8th in touchdowns

13th in touchdown percentage

1st in interceptions

5th in interception percentage

 

That's the entirety of Jay Cutler's season (unless there is anything else you want to add.)

 

We agree: That the Bears' surrounding cast was awful around him.

We agree: That having an awful surrounding cast had a significant impact on his stats.

We disagree: Projecting forward, and presuming the offensive cast around him improves, Cutler is likely to be good enough to justify his contract and the assets the Bears acquired to get him.

 

Does that pretty much sum it up?

[David]

Briggs on with Waddle and Silvy

[Sammy Sofa]

Sure, but it's still a terrible point because your roundabout argument, even with the caveats, is to dump this on Cutler so you can declare him as not being worth the cost after one year with a crappy team. All of those numbers, including the picks, are not hinged on him. Hell, you break down the picks and a good portion of them are the result of crappy routes and running by the receivers or bad luck bounces (though nobody is saying Cutler doesn't have an obvious issue with trying to force plays, especially in the red zone). It's telling that you keep trying to make your points as broad as possible without breaking down what actually happened or comparing/contrasting them with anything that counters them.

[soapy]

Yeah, him still managing to also throw more TD's than he has a in a season plus 3600+ yards with an all but non-existent OL and running game and average group of receivers isn't important at all. Nope, it's just about the picks. That's all that matters.

 

Well, instead of going back and forth with "Well, YOU only care about picks" and "YOU only care about the TDs," let's lay it all out there:

 

20th in yards per attempt

13th in yards

19th in completion percentage

8th in touchdowns

13th in touchdown percentage

1st in interceptions

5th in interception percentage

 

That's the entirety of Jay Cutler's season (unless there is anything else you want to add.)

 

We agree: That the Bears' surrounding cast was awful around him.

We agree: That having an awful surrounding cast had a significant impact on his stats.

We disagree: Projecting forward, and presuming the offensive cast around him improves, Cutler is likely to be good enough to justify his contract and the assets the Bears acquired to get him.

 

Does that pretty much sum it up?

 

You continue to ignore his superior numbers prior to 2009 and insist on pretending 2009 is the only indicator he has.

[ctcf]

I miss the signing rumors.

[Magnetic Curses]

warren moon threw 26 at 30, jurgensen threw 26 at 28, fouts threw 24 at 28 and 29, dan marino threw 23 at 27 and 25.

 

i could go on and on.

[Butterscup1679666578]

Ryan Clark negotiated with the Pittsburgh Steelers this week to see if he could hammer out a longterm extension but that didn’t happen and the free agent is drawing pretty solid interest early in free agency.

 

His agent Joel Turner declined to name the teams involved but said six clubs, including the Steelers, are involved at this point. Obviously, Arizona and Chicago would be on a very short list of teams seeking safeties with Miami and the New York Giants also in the market. Washington, where Clark used to play, could also be looking for a safety.

 

“Everyone is gaga over Antrel Rolle,” Turner said. “Ryan is a better player. He’s got better numbers across the board.”

 

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Biggs-Six-teams-after-Ryan-Clark.html

[Hairyducked Idiot]

You continue to ignore his superior numbers prior to 2009 and insist on pretending 2009 is the only indicator he has.

 

I was under the impression that the Bears acquired him in part because of his age and hoping that he would get better with time. Especially taken as a per-pass basis, his pre-2009 numbers were good but not "franchise" level.

 

If I'm wrong about that, then I apologize.

[soapy]

You continue to ignore his superior numbers prior to 2009 and insist on pretending 2009 is the only indicator he has.

 

I was under the impression that the Bears acquired him in part because of his age and hoping that he would get better with time. Especially taken as a per-pass basis, his pre-2009 numbers were good but not "franchise" level.

 

If I'm wrong about that, then I apologize.

 

Well, since we're clearly not going to agree on what "franchise level" is, we should probably just move on.

[SABR Gamer]

As for the Cutler trade, if he doesn't ever become an elite QB he probably won't be worth what the Bears traded for him. Returning to Denver numbers won't be good enough IMO to trade 2 1sts and a 3rd (if you assume Orton was traded for the 5th). That's way too much value to give up for a QB who has turned it over too much his whole career. He still has plenty of time though to try to learn how to not make those horrible throws and to label him a bust after one year is premature. I definitely believe it is an uphill battle though because it's really hard to make that leap into the next echelon of QB's.

 

Hmm. CCP making pretty much the exact same point I did (and notice I never once called Cutler a "bust"), yet no hysterical "I can't believe this guy" responses.

You're not saying anything close to the exact same thing.

 

So what have I said that's different from what he said?

 

You specifically said you'd rather have 2400-yard, 15-TD, 10-pick seasons.

 

Yeah, that's one of the single, dumbest things I have ever read on this board.

[jersey cubs fan]

Good lord...was there just 4 pages of Cutler arguments again? FFS.

 

Lets all just agree that Kyle is wrong (because he is, and we all know it) and move along. If he wants to argue with himself, let him. There's a lot of things the Bears are doing today that deservers better discussion than this.

 

I'm with you.

 

I'm a little torn on the tight end signing. On one hand, it's just a blocking tight end, one of the least important positions on the team. On the other hand, it's supposedly exactly what Martz wants, and the Bears could use all the help they can get in block. I've always liked Desmond Clark, but he was a multi-purpose tight end rather than a great blocker. But again, he's just a blocking tight end, no threat at all in the passing game, and he barely even played last year. Plus, he's already 30, the same age Clark was when everybody was panicking about finding his replacement.

 

If he doesn't get in the way of other things, I guess it doesn't matter.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

warren moon threw 26 at 30, jurgensen threw 26 at 28, fouts threw 24 at 28 and 29, dan marino threw 23 at 27 and 25.

 

i could go on and on.

 

I fully believe Cutler could have Warren Moon's career with the right surrounding cast. Jurgensen isn't modern era. Fouts is a reasonable comp that puts Cutler in a very positive light, excellent point. Marino's high pick totals came in many, many more attempts.