Cubs Top Prospect Lists (NSBB, BA, etc.)

[Outshined_One]

Very interesting to see Brett Jackson ranked above Josh Vitters. Especially after so many were dead against picking him. So was he that much better than everyone thought, or is this more a reflection on Vitters?

 

Little bit of both.

 

The first page of this thread outlined some of Jackson's problems when he was drafted, such as whether he'd make good contact with wood, his high strikeout totals, his questionable power, whether he'll stay in center, etc. In the Cubs system, he put three of those problems to bed by hitting for good average, showcasing some impressive power in Peoria, and doing a very good job patrolling CF. He still strikes out enough to make people uncomfortable, but he cut down on that enough in the Cubs' system that he might be able to downplay it.

 

Vitters, on the other hand, had more good news than bad news this season. The good news was his performance in Peoria, where he displayed excellent power and the ability to hit for a high average, especially over his hot month of May. The bad news was his performance in Daytona and his damned hand/wrist injuries. He seemed over-matched in Daytona, where pitchers could expose him with good pitches in the strike zone that Vitters would hit for easy outs.

 

In the Top 10 discussion, all of us had Vitters over Jackson, so it's not like BA's list represents the consensus. Callis is just much higher on Jackson than most people, it seems.

[davell]

What was mentioned about Coleman and Searle?

 

Coleman: 4 pitches that hover around average with a good change, good feel for pitching, either ends up in middle relief or back of the rotation

Searle: Great life on his sinker, works with a slider, has a good future if he improves

Actually, the telling quote on Searle was that he has a good future if he works harder at his game.

 

There was an article a while back about him, questioning his attitude, I believe. Maybe he didn't get along with his teammates or something to that affect. He hasn't been playing baseball all that long, if I remember correctly actually, right? It'll be interesting to see if he gets bumped up to Tenn or if he sticks in Daytona next year. He's still very young for High A as it is.

[Outshined_One]

What was mentioned about Coleman and Searle?

 

Coleman: 4 pitches that hover around average with a good change, good feel for pitching, either ends up in middle relief or back of the rotation

Searle: Great life on his sinker, works with a slider, has a good future if he improves

Actually, the telling quote on Searle was that he has a good future if he works harder at his game.

 

I have to wonder if that was a poor choice of words on Callis' part or if he was implying that Searle needs to dedicate himself more to pitching. Considering how much he's advanced since he signed as a 17 year old who didn't even know where the Cubs played, I'm inclined to think it's the former.

[toonsterwu]

BA's list is out, to be honest I'm not a fan.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2010/269148.html

 

No Kyler Burke is just...I mean wow. And Logan Watkins at 7? FTH?

 

Yeah, they have Kyler in their projected starting line-up in 2012, but not in the Top 10 prospects. Seems like a disconnect there.

 

Im really shocked that Jackson has leapfrogged VItters and Cashner in the BA list. Not a bad thing, just means that our system has some depth. Also, as far as the NSBB list, I thought that Coleman would have been there, but I have no complaints with the list.

 

For once, Im really excited about our farm system and hope we dont trade any key players for rent a players. With Ricketts love for the farm system,, I wouldnt think that would be a problem anyway.

 

Just out of curiosity, does Wellington Castillo even register anymore?

 

I'm somewhat stunned by the Brett love. Ithink you can make an argument that, after Castro, you can rank our guys in several orders and have a fair case, but that was still high.

 

I'm still high enough on castillo (top 15 prospect for me). He showed improvement offensively and defensively, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt due to the bad luck early. I Think you could find a Bengie Molina type guy, if all goes well (or a Hank White type of guy). That said, I understand why some folks are lukewarm on him.

[toonsterwu]

Callis fixed his "Kyler Burke doesn't hit lefthanders" statement. :-))

 

He just said that Burke doesn't drive the ball against left handers very well.

 

That's definitely fair. The previous comment seemed odd. Basically, he's Brad Hawpe-ish as an offensive projection right now, but he could improve against lefties.

[toonsterwu]

Anything at all about some of the Pac Rim guys? Jung, Kim, either Wang, Na, or Chen? Haven't heard much as far as scouting on any of them whatsoever. Any tidbits on Antigua possibly?

 

Mat Germain (Halifax, NS): Why was Jeffry Antigua left off the top 10? Based on performance, I'd place him ahead of the 7-10 guys on this list.

 

Jim Callis: I think you're a little high on Antigua, but he is the best lefthanded starting pitching prospect in the system. The list isn't based just on performance, especially for players in the lower half of the minors. He has a chance for three average or better pitches, and he commands his fastball well for his age.

 

That sounds much better than the commentary/blurb that BA made about him awhile back.

[toonsterwu]

If you piece together the thought of Castro being in the top 25 neighborhood at least, with B Jackson and Vitters somewhere in the middle, with Cashner, Lee, and J Jackson all having a chance to be in the bottom third of the top 100, it's fairly obvious to me that oursystem is heading back towards the top 10 in baseball quickly. While I guess we won't get there this offseason, I think we will be next offseason anyway.

 

Well ... there's a chance that some graduations could happen to lessen our chances of getting back into the top 10. That said, as long as the system is producing, I really don't care where we are ranked.

[toonsterwu]

Words cannot describe how thankful I am that the discussion here at NSBB is intelligent and informed. After reading comments on several other sites today regarding Cubs prospect lists, having people who actually know what they are talking about is greatly appreciated. Just felt the need to share that.

 

I'll second that. For a long time, I was searching for a good Cubs prospect discussion. There was some issue with my account previously, but Raisin helped fix it for me, and it's been great. Other sites are decent ... but NSBB is above all the other blogs out there in regards to Cubs prospect knowledge and discussion.

[toonsterwu]

Very interesting to see Brett Jackson ranked above Josh Vitters. Especially after so many were dead against picking him. So was he that much better than everyone thought, or is this more a reflection on Vitters?

 

half and half. I think Brett has done better than expected, and that Josh's failure to develop discipline is troubling, but the combination is probably what's at play right now, because if one or the other didn't happen, you likely wouldn't have seen Callis decide to rank it that way.

[toonsterwu]

Speed, baby, speed - Hak-ju Lee might be faster than Tony Campana, and Jose Valdez got the fastest baserunner system. There was a Cubs minor league follower that argued that the Cubs system lacked speed. We've got speed. Usable speed? Only time will tell.

 

Mildly surprised with the nod for best power hitter going to Brett. Not stunned, but mildly surprised.

 

Best strike-zone discipline is to Burke? Interesting. I mean, I know he's got good discipline, but with a bevy of potential leadoff types in the system, I'm a bit surprised he got the nod.

 

I don't care much for projected lineups, but it does show that a lot of people like Hak-ju Lee's shortstop potential, defensively. that said ... if Castro makes it up to the bigs and is solid at short, and if Lee is still in the system, I have a hard time seeing Lee push him off.

[illiniguy]

Very interesting to see Brett Jackson ranked above Josh Vitters. Especially after so many were dead against picking him. So was he that much better than everyone thought, or is this more a reflection on Vitters?

 

half and half. I think Brett has done better than expected, and that Josh's failure to develop discipline is troubling, but the combination is probably what's at play right now, because if one or the other didn't happen, you likely wouldn't have seen Callis decide to rank it that way.

I guess I just don't see it. The age is the big thing for me. Before Vitters was hurt he was destroying the Midwest League as a 20 year old. I guess it must just be a lot of people are scared by the wrist thing that Tim talked about. Either way it's a nice problem to have and we have really imporved the system this year.

[Guest]

BA's list is out, to be honest I'm not a fan.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2010/269148.html

 

No Kyler Burke is just...I mean wow. And Logan Watkins at 7? FTH?

 

Yeah, they have Kyler in their projected starting line-up in 2012, but not in the Top 10 prospects. Seems like a disconnect there.

 

Im really shocked that Jackson has leapfrogged VItters and Cashner in the BA list. Not a bad thing, just means that our system has some depth. Also, as far as the NSBB list, I thought that Coleman would have been there, but I have no complaints with the list.

 

For once, Im really excited about our farm system and hope we dont trade any key players for rent a players. With Ricketts love for the farm system,, I wouldnt think that would be a problem anyway.

 

Just out of curiosity, does Wellington Castillo even register anymore?

 

I'm somewhat stunned by the Brett love. Ithink you can make an argument that, after Castro, you can rank our guys in several orders and have a fair case, but that was still high.

 

I'm still high enough on castillo (top 15 prospect for me). He showed improvement offensively and defensively, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt due to the bad luck early. I Think you could find a Bengie Molina type guy, if all goes well (or a Hank White type of guy). That said, I understand why some folks are lukewarm on him.

 

I think it was very telling that Jim Callis thinks Robinson Chirinos is the best catching prospect in the organization (and he projects as a backup). Very interesting considering Castillo, Clevenger and Robinson are all at AA or higher. That said, I'm sure the Cubs will add Castillo to the 40-man.

[Guest]

Very interesting to see Brett Jackson ranked above Josh Vitters. Especially after so many were dead against picking him. So was he that much better than everyone thought, or is this more a reflection on Vitters?

 

half and half. I think Brett has done better than expected, and that Josh's failure to develop discipline is troubling, but the combination is probably what's at play right now, because if one or the other didn't happen, you likely wouldn't have seen Callis decide to rank it that way.

I guess I just don't see it. The age is the big thing for me. Before Vitters was hurt he was destroying the Midwest League as a 20 year old. I guess it must just be a lot of people are scared by the wrist thing that Tim talked about. Either way it's a nice problem to have and we have really imporved the system this year.

 

Yeah, the wrist was the biggest red flag for me with Vitters and one of the main reasons I have him behind Castro. But I just can't buy Brett Jackson at 2. I had him at 5. Jim Callis just fell in love with B. Jackson.

[toonsterwu]

Very interesting to see Brett Jackson ranked above Josh Vitters. Especially after so many were dead against picking him. So was he that much better than everyone thought, or is this more a reflection on Vitters?

 

half and half. I think Brett has done better than expected, and that Josh's failure to develop discipline is troubling, but the combination is probably what's at play right now, because if one or the other didn't happen, you likely wouldn't have seen Callis decide to rank it that way.

I guess I just don't see it. The age is the big thing for me. Before Vitters was hurt he was destroying the Midwest League as a 20 year old. I guess it must just be a lot of people are scared by the wrist thing that Tim talked about. Either way it's a nice problem to have and we have really imporved the system this year.

 

While I'm concerned about the injuries, I'm more concerned about the discipline. The chances just arne't that high, IMO, for a guy who averages 3.2/3.3 P/PA to reach his potential unless he's an exception to the rule, which he might be, but I'm not willing to bet on (and maybe there's research to show I'm off base on that assertion - I've never really researched it myself). The other thing is, I thought his strong Peoria season was overhyped. He had one extremely hot streak in Peoria, in May, but otherwise, was average to decent before and after, with a cold streak mixed in. I like Vitters potential a lot, but there are definitely areas of concern.

[toonsterwu]

BA's list is out, to be honest I'm not a fan.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2010/269148.html

 

No Kyler Burke is just...I mean wow. And Logan Watkins at 7? FTH?

 

Yeah, they have Kyler in their projected starting line-up in 2012, but not in the Top 10 prospects. Seems like a disconnect there.

 

Im really shocked that Jackson has leapfrogged VItters and Cashner in the BA list. Not a bad thing, just means that our system has some depth. Also, as far as the NSBB list, I thought that Coleman would have been there, but I have no complaints with the list.

 

For once, Im really excited about our farm system and hope we dont trade any key players for rent a players. With Ricketts love for the farm system,, I wouldnt think that would be a problem anyway.

 

Just out of curiosity, does Wellington Castillo even register anymore?

 

I'm somewhat stunned by the Brett love. Ithink you can make an argument that, after Castro, you can rank our guys in several orders and have a fair case, but that was still high.

 

I'm still high enough on castillo (top 15 prospect for me). He showed improvement offensively and defensively, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt due to the bad luck early. I Think you could find a Bengie Molina type guy, if all goes well (or a Hank White type of guy). That said, I understand why some folks are lukewarm on him.

 

I think it was very telling that Jim Callis thinks Robinson Chirinos is the best catching prospect in the organization (and he projects as a backup). Very interesting considering Castillo, Clevenger and Robinson are all at AA or higher. That said, I'm sure the Cubs will add Castillo to the 40-man.

 

Did he say something in the chat? Don't have a BA account anymore, because the only Chirinos thing I see is that he was rated as the top defensive catcher, which I can buy based on some of the reports out there.

[Outshined_One]

Did he say something in the chat? Don't have a BA account anymore, because the only Chirinos thing I see is that he was rated as the top defensive catcher, which I can buy based on some of the reports out there.

 

John (Oak Park, IL): A guy I've always liked is Robinson Chirinos. He seems to have a disciplined approach to the plate. He's been an IF'er in the past and I notice he has done a nice job taking to catching. He'll be 26 this year but is he a guy who can win a roster spot someday?

 

 

Jim Callis: Yes, he can. I like him more than Castillo and Steve Clevenger at this point. Though he only has been catching for two years, he's a better all-around defender than either and I think he'll hit. If something happens to Geovany Soto or Koyie Hill this year, Chirinos would likely get the call.

 

He'd also take Chirinos over Robinson.

[Guest]

I'm still high enough on castillo (top 15 prospect for me). He showed improvement offensively and defensively, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt due to the bad luck early. I Think you could find a Bengie Molina type guy, if all goes well (or a Hank White type of guy). That said, I understand why some folks are lukewarm on him.

 

I think it was very telling that Jim Callis thinks Robinson Chirinos is the best catching prospect in the organization (and he projects as a backup). Very interesting considering Castillo, Clevenger and Robinson are all at AA or higher. That said, I'm sure the Cubs will add Castillo to the 40-man.

 

Did he say something in the chat? Don't have a BA account anymore, because the only Chirinos thing I see is that he was rated as the top defensive catcher, which I can buy based on some of the reports out there.

 

Two questions on Chirinos:

 

John (Oak Park, IL): A guy I've always liked is Robinson Chirinos. He seems to have a disciplined approach to the plate. He's been an IF'er in the past and I notice he has done a nice job taking to catching. He'll be 26 this year but is he a guy who can win a roster spot someday?

 

Jim Callis: Yes, he can. I like him more than Castillo and Steve Clevenger at this point. Though he only has been catching for two years, he's a better all-around defender than either and I think he'll hit. If something happens to Geovany Soto or Koyie Hill this year, Chirinos would likely get the call.

 

and

 

Rod (Chicago): What makes Chironos better than Chris Robinson?

 

Jim Callis: Better defender, better hitter. Robinson had a nice year in Triple-A, but I wouldn't expect him to hit .326 again either.

 

He's raking in the VWL. It doesn't surprise me that he has improved so much defensively. He's extremely bright with great leadership skills (there's a reason he was promoted at the same time as Starlin Castro to AA) - both of which are valuable in a backup catcher.

[illiniguy]

Very interesting to see Brett Jackson ranked above Josh Vitters. Especially after so many were dead against picking him. So was he that much better than everyone thought, or is this more a reflection on Vitters?

 

half and half. I think Brett has done better than expected, and that Josh's failure to develop discipline is troubling, but the combination is probably what's at play right now, because if one or the other didn't happen, you likely wouldn't have seen Callis decide to rank it that way.

I guess I just don't see it. The age is the big thing for me. Before Vitters was hurt he was destroying the Midwest League as a 20 year old. I guess it must just be a lot of people are scared by the wrist thing that Tim talked about. Either way it's a nice problem to have and we have really imporved the system this year.

 

While I'm concerned about the injuries, I'm more concerned about the discipline. The chances just arne't that high, IMO, for a guy who averages 3.2/3.3 P/PA to reach his potential unless he's an exception to the rule, which he might be, but I'm not willing to bet on (and maybe there's research to show I'm off base on that assertion - I've never really researched it myself). The other thing is, I thought his strong Peoria season was overhyped. He had one extremely hot streak in Peoria, in May, but otherwise, was average to decent before and after, with a cold streak mixed in. I like Vitters potential a lot, but there are definitely areas of concern.

I am concerned about that lack of walks as well, but it is what it is. I wish the Cubs as an organization would preach patience more. But, since they don't appear to do that I do think it hurts many of our young hitters.

[toonsterwu]

Did he say something in the chat? Don't have a BA account anymore, because the only Chirinos thing I see is that he was rated as the top defensive catcher, which I can buy based on some of the reports out there.

 

John (Oak Park, IL): A guy I've always liked is Robinson Chirinos. He seems to have a disciplined approach to the plate. He's been an IF'er in the past and I notice he has done a nice job taking to catching. He'll be 26 this year but is he a guy who can win a roster spot someday?

 

 

Jim Callis: Yes, he can. I like him more than Castillo and Steve Clevenger at this point. Though he only has been catching for two years, he's a better all-around defender than either and I think he'll hit. If something happens to Geovany Soto or Koyie Hill this year, Chirinos would likely get the call.

 

He'd also take Chirinos over Robinson.

 

Interesting. I'm not high on Robinson/Clevenger, so that doesn't surprise me.

[Outshined_One]

I am concerned about that lack of walks as well, but it is what it is. I wish the Cubs as an organization would preach patience more. But, since they don't appear to do that I do think it hurts many of our young hitters.

 

I am of the opinion that the tools a player needs to be patient are ingrained in his head before he's ever drafted. Yeah, some guys can be taught patience and develop it over time (Jose Reyes is a good example, although he controlled the strike zone pretty well in the minors despite not walking), but it seems like a lot of guys either have it or they don't. I don't know what it would take to teach Vitters the tools he needs to become someone who can draw enough walks to be a .100+ IsoD kind of guy, but I'm guessing certain habits and tendencies leading him to be really aggressive are already such a part of his approach that it would be really difficult to change those things.

 

In other words, the lack of walks in the Cubs' system may have more to do with scouting than coaching.

[illiniguy]

I am concerned about that lack of walks as well, but it is what it is. I wish the Cubs as an organization would preach patience more. But, since they don't appear to do that I do think it hurts many of our young hitters.

 

I am of the opinion that the tools a player needs to be patient are ingrained in his head before he's ever drafted. Yeah, some guys can be taught patience and develop it over time (Jose Reyes is a good example, although he controlled the strike zone pretty well in the minors despite not walking), but it seems like a lot of guys either have it or they don't. I don't know what it would take to teach Vitters the tools he needs to become someone who can draw enough walks to be a .100+ IsoD kind of guy, but I'm guessing certain habits and tendencies leading him to be really aggressive are already such a part of his approach that it would be really difficult to change those things.

 

In other words, the lack of walks in the Cubs' system may have more to do with scouting than coaching.

Could be. So do you feel we should not worry about Castro and Lee then since they both seem to have good strike zone control even though they don't walk a ton? Sorry for a ton of questions, just really appreciate the knowledge you guys have for this stuff.

[Guest]

I am concerned about that lack of walks as well, but it is what it is. I wish the Cubs as an organization would preach patience more. But, since they don't appear to do that I do think it hurts many of our young hitters.

 

I am of the opinion that the tools a player needs to be patient are ingrained in his head before he's ever drafted. Yeah, some guys can be taught patience and develop it over time (Jose Reyes is a good example, although he controlled the strike zone pretty well in the minors despite not walking), but it seems like a lot of guys either have it or they don't. I don't know what it would take to teach Vitters the tools he needs to become someone who can draw enough walks to be a .100+ IsoD kind of guy, but I'm guessing certain habits and tendencies leading him to be really aggressive are already such a part of his approach that it would be really difficult to change those things.

 

In other words, the lack of walks in the Cubs' system may have more to do with scouting than coaching.

Could be. So do you feel we should not worry about Castro and Lee then since they both seem to have good strike zone control even though they don't walk a ton? Sorry for a ton of questions, just really appreciate the knowledge you guys have for this stuff.

 

I'm not worried, especially considering their age.

 

With Vitters, I'm more concerned with the way he gets himself out on strikes (because he swings at everything and can make a lot of contact) than with him striking out too much. I guess we can hope a bulb goes off for him. That's the main reason why I don't want the Cubs to bump him up to AA without him earning it at Daytona.

[illiniguy]

I am concerned about that lack of walks as well, but it is what it is. I wish the Cubs as an organization would preach patience more. But, since they don't appear to do that I do think it hurts many of our young hitters.

 

I am of the opinion that the tools a player needs to be patient are ingrained in his head before he's ever drafted. Yeah, some guys can be taught patience and develop it over time (Jose Reyes is a good example, although he controlled the strike zone pretty well in the minors despite not walking), but it seems like a lot of guys either have it or they don't. I don't know what it would take to teach Vitters the tools he needs to become someone who can draw enough walks to be a .100+ IsoD kind of guy, but I'm guessing certain habits and tendencies leading him to be really aggressive are already such a part of his approach that it would be really difficult to change those things.

 

In other words, the lack of walks in the Cubs' system may have more to do with scouting than coaching.

Could be. So do you feel we should not worry about Castro and Lee then since they both seem to have good strike zone control even though they don't walk a ton? Sorry for a ton of questions, just really appreciate the knowledge you guys have for this stuff.

 

I'm not worried, especially considering their age.

 

With Vitters, I'm more concerned with the way he gets himself out on strikes (because he swings at everything and can make a lot of contact) than with him striking out too much. I guess we can hope a bulb goes off for him. That's the main reason why I don't want the Cubs to bump him up to AA without him earning it at Daytona.

The thing that scares me is let's say he goes to AA and starts hot. Then let's say Aram has his shoulder flare up. You know what I'm getting at. That would be a huge mistake. That's why I wouldn't mind to see a repeat of Daytona.

[Outshined_One]

Plus, Lee actually walks at a pretty good rate. A .069 IsoD is better than average compared to other prospects and Lee was in the NWL's Top 20 in BB% among qualified hitters.

[Rob]

Callis has a bit too much love for B. Jackson and the Cubs FO is probably too high on Watkins. Aside from that, I wont take much issue with the list... though I do think Flaherty may need to be dropped a few spots.