NHL W. Conference Finals: Red Wings defeat Blackhawks 4-1

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I really don't understand using the phrase "entire career" when you are talking about a guy in his 2nd season. It's just overly dramatic, like saying Boston hasn't won a World Series since 2007.

 

I said "his entire career" because I meant his entire career. What phrase would you prefer I use?

[jaydee]

what was his plus minus in london? or with the u18 program? plus minus is such a useless statistic anyway. kane was -2 in game 2. those goals were both boneheaded moves by hawks dman at the blueline. so he was -2, when really 'his' pl/minus should have been zero.

 

His +/- in the minos is irrelevant. He outclassed other players by such a wide margin.

 

You can always point to individual goals and say "it wasn't his fault." But that doesn't explain why it happens so often throughout his entire career. It's a simple fact that goals happen more often for both teams when Patrick Kane is on the ice at even strength.

 

He's fantastic offensively and awful defensively. He can't win a battle on the boards to save his life, and his backchecking is weak at best and disinterested at worst.

 

If you take out the empty-netters dragging down his +/-, he's probably about even at even strength, i.e. he's just as bad defensively as he is good offensively. But since you can count on him for 40 points on the PP and he doesn't need to play on the PK, he's still a wonderful player to have.

 

But for some reason, among Hawks fans, it's taboo to mention his defense. It's weird, because it's plain as day. It's like saying Sosa didn't strike out a lot or that Ramirez is injury prone. It doesn't mean they aren't great players, it's just who they are.

 

you really can't take much away from plus minus. crosby, who is damn good defensively was like +3 this year i think. plus minus isn't an individual stat...it takes into account the quality of a players teammates and who he plays against. kane is matched up against the opposing teams top players usually. if not their top players offensively, at least their best defensive players. so that means kane is less likely to score than say Byfuglien or Versteeg.

 

anyway, kovalev basically pointed out why plus/minus shouldn't be used as an individual stat saying '"If I make a good play and we don't score, then one of our other players makes a mistake and the other team scores, I get a minus."

[jersey cubs fan]

I really don't understand using the phrase "entire career" when you are talking about a guy in his 2nd season. It's just overly dramatic, like saying Boston hasn't won a World Series since 2007.

 

I said "his entire career" because I meant his entire career. What phrase would you prefer I use?

 

Entire career is something you say when talking about a retired player or somebody who has been around a long time. It's 2 years, his first two years in the league, or something like that.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Crosby is also a +30 for his career.

 

+/- is like the batting average of hockey. It ignores a lot of important things and doesn't give you a real picture of overall value, but it's still silly to ignore what it does say. A .245 hitter isn't hitting for average, and a minus player who puts up a lot of points is not good defensively.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I really don't understand using the phrase "entire career" when you are talking about a guy in his 2nd season. It's just overly dramatic, like saying Boston hasn't won a World Series since 2007.

 

I said "his entire career" because I meant his entire career. What phrase would you prefer I use?

 

Entire career is something you say when talking about a retired player or somebody who has been around a long time. It's 2 years, his first two years in the league, or something like that.

 

Fine. It's an irrelevant to distraction to the primary point, so I'll go back and edit the post.

[NewUserName]

Here is a list of players who scored more than 65 points, team made the playoffs, and had less than a +10 +/- rating.

 

Ovechkin +8

Crosby +3

Getlaf +5

Iginla -2

Cammalleri -2

Whitney +2

Kane +2

Kovalev -5

Boyes -20

 

First I do believe that +/- is not a good stat. I like to think of it more like RBIs in baseball. If however you are batting behind 2 .400 OBP guys and only drive in 91, something is not right.

 

Second. I do believe only Crosby, Ovechkin and Kane come from teams that were top 4 in their conference. Getlaf is a 2 way stud that +/- does not represent his game at all. Ovechkin, Iginla, Cammalleri, Whitney, Boyes and Kovalev all have reps for not being responsible in their own zone.

 

Third. As a team the Hawks were +45 at even strength. At least 20 better than every other team that is represented on this list.

 

Basically, I think using all this info...Kyle has a very valid argument that Kane is a defensive liability. Personally watching about 40 Hawks games this year, I would conclude that Kane is not very good defensively. He however is very young and will improve.

[gflore34]

I keep reading how the wings will just be able to 'replace' guys like Lidstrom when they retire. I understand they have been good for al ong time but that is just an incredibly arrogant statement. He was a generational Dman and you can't replace that. They will have to get most of their replacements as time goes on from free agency, since their prospect pool isn't very deep at all. The hawks on the other hand have some of the best depth in the league in terms of prospects, and I would expect that to continue since Tallon has shown an ability to consistently draft good young talent. Hawks have the extremely talented core hey need (Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Barker) and a steady stream of guys who can fit in (Bolland, Byfuglien, Sweatt, Beach, Aliu etc.) as role players.

 

Yah, Kane and Toews aren't Zetterberg and Datsyuk yet. But Kane is 20. Toews is 21. They will only get better and better.

 

On the prospect angle, hawks signed Beach today:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/hockey/blackhawks/chi-21-blackhawks-bits-chicago-may21,0,3922016.story

 

He should be on the team next year...almost made it this year.

 

The Wings have not had a highly ranked farm system for 15 years and yet is still produces about as good as anyone elses. Lidstrom is certainly an all time great, but he already taken a step down from where he was several years ago. Even If Lidstrom retires the Wings still have Rafalski, Ericson, Stuart, Kronwall, Lilja, Meech, Kindl and Lebda. Plus it frees up their biggest contract, so signing a player like Bouwmeester would be very reasonable. He is a step down from Lidstrom but Ericsson and Kronwall will still be improving.

 

I think the Hawks still have plenty of places to improve and may pass the Wings, but I dont think the Wings are going to drop down too much in the near future

 

There's one thing the Hawks have that the Wings cannot match nor have an answer for - Scotty Bowman - I believe that's going to translate to them making the best and correct decisions when to comes to future contracts, etc. Basically, the Hawks are young and talented along with a management that's not going to eff it up.

[Cynosure]

I keep reading how the wings will just be able to 'replace' guys like Lidstrom when they retire. I understand they have been good for al ong time but that is just an incredibly arrogant statement. He was a generational Dman and you can't replace that. They will have to get most of their replacements as time goes on from free agency, since their prospect pool isn't very deep at all. The hawks on the other hand have some of the best depth in the league in terms of prospects, and I would expect that to continue since Tallon has shown an ability to consistently draft good young talent. Hawks have the extremely talented core hey need (Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Barker) and a steady stream of guys who can fit in (Bolland, Byfuglien, Sweatt, Beach, Aliu etc.) as role players.

 

Yah, Kane and Toews aren't Zetterberg and Datsyuk yet. But Kane is 20. Toews is 21. They will only get better and better.

 

On the prospect angle, hawks signed Beach today:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/hockey/blackhawks/chi-21-blackhawks-bits-chicago-may21,0,3922016.story

 

He should be on the team next year...almost made it this year.

 

The Wings have not had a highly ranked farm system for 15 years and yet is still produces about as good as anyone elses. Lidstrom is certainly an all time great, but he already taken a step down from where he was several years ago. Even If Lidstrom retires the Wings still have Rafalski, Ericson, Stuart, Kronwall, Lilja, Meech, Kindl and Lebda. Plus it frees up their biggest contract, so signing a player like Bouwmeester would be very reasonable. He is a step down from Lidstrom but Ericsson and Kronwall will still be improving.

 

I think the Hawks still have plenty of places to improve and may pass the Wings, but I dont think the Wings are going to drop down too much in the near future

 

There's one thing the Hawks have that the Wings cannot match nor have an answer for - Scotty Bowman - I believe that's going to translate to them making the best and correct decisions when to comes to future contracts, etc. Basically, the Hawks are young and talented along with a management that's not going to eff it up.

 

They had him for long enough.

[bcl412]

It's time to just enjoy a hockey game tonight. Hopefully the Hawks can make it a series.

[NewUserName]

I keep reading how the wings will just be able to 'replace' guys like Lidstrom when they retire. I understand they have been good for al ong time but that is just an incredibly arrogant statement. He was a generational Dman and you can't replace that. They will have to get most of their replacements as time goes on from free agency, since their prospect pool isn't very deep at all. The hawks on the other hand have some of the best depth in the league in terms of prospects, and I would expect that to continue since Tallon has shown an ability to consistently draft good young talent. Hawks have the extremely talented core hey need (Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Barker) and a steady stream of guys who can fit in (Bolland, Byfuglien, Sweatt, Beach, Aliu etc.) as role players.

 

Yah, Kane and Toews aren't Zetterberg and Datsyuk yet. But Kane is 20. Toews is 21. They will only get better and better.

 

On the prospect angle, hawks signed Beach today:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/hockey/blackhawks/chi-21-blackhawks-bits-chicago-may21,0,3922016.story

 

He should be on the team next year...almost made it this year.

 

The Wings have not had a highly ranked farm system for 15 years and yet is still produces about as good as anyone elses. Lidstrom is certainly an all time great, but he already taken a step down from where he was several years ago. Even If Lidstrom retires the Wings still have Rafalski, Ericson, Stuart, Kronwall, Lilja, Meech, Kindl and Lebda. Plus it frees up their biggest contract, so signing a player like Bouwmeester would be very reasonable. He is a step down from Lidstrom but Ericsson and Kronwall will still be improving.

 

I think the Hawks still have plenty of places to improve and may pass the Wings, but I dont think the Wings are going to drop down too much in the near future

 

There's one thing the Hawks have that the Wings cannot match nor have an answer for - Scotty Bowman - I believe that's going to translate to them making the best and correct decisions when to comes to future contracts, etc. Basically, the Hawks are young and talented along with a management that's not going to eff it up.

 

They had him for long enough.

 

We share!! Bowman is a very wise Hockey god. I really believe he was the one behind the Pahlsson trade. To tie the 2 main themes that are running on this thread, I dont think Kane is a Bowman type of player yet. If he doesnt improve his work in the corners and back checking, I could see a Bowman influenced move. Like when he sent Primeau to Hartford for Shanahan.

[cubswin2009]

Let's go Hawks

[jaydee]

atmosphere at the UC should be crazy tonight. probably lots of fights (in the stands) if the hawks lose.

[Cynosure]

Anthem should be awesome!

[Cynosure]

"The warrior head" ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!

[jaydee]

Anthem should be awesome!

 

doubt versus will show it....and of course they don't. please give hockey back to espn already.

[manbearcub]

detroit sucks! haha

[Cynosure]

Nice D so far!

[Cynosure]

They have the Hawks at ZERO hits, lol.

[jaydee]

if darren helm played for anyone but detroit people realize hes a run of the mill bottom 6 forward that is a dime a dozen. but since hes for detroit hes slobbered all over

[Cynosure]

What an incredible pass by Keith!

[cubswin2009]

Score here.

[Cynosure]

Ok Cleary you scored 2 goals the other day... lets score 2 on this PP!

[Cynosure]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Butterscup1679666578]

Yes sir!

[CDBears1259]

Nice!