Who Should Be In The Cubs Bullpen?

[17 Seconds]

Yeah, I don't understand everyone's willingness to throw Gaudin away. Vizcaino, fine, he's old and not that good. I'm not throwing away Chad Gaudin so Patton can suck for a month and get returned to the Rockies.

 

He was a god awful drunk who entered Lou's doghouse immediately and hasn't shown any glimmer of hope since.

 

A god awful drunk? Where does this stuff even come from? There's a rumor about his injury happeneing when he was drunk and suddenly he's a drunk? Adults are allowed to drink guys.

 

A god awful pitcher who is a drunk. He's a drunk because he got injured drinking. I'm all for boozing it up, but when it gets in the way of your work, you have a problem.

 

C'mon dude. He happened to get hurt when when he was supposedly drinking. That means he's a drunk?

 

How many players drink from time to time? A LOT. Any one of them could have slipped and fallen while they were drunk. Calling Gaudin a drunk because of one incident is not fair at all. It's ridiculous. What if you slipped while drunk and couldn't work for the next couple weeks. Would that mean you have a problem and are a drunk? No, it would just mean you got unlucky. Gaudin is no different from anybody else.

[17 Seconds]

I think the bottom line is that good middle relievers are just hard to come by for the simple fact that if one truely impresses, they quickly become a set up man or a closer. These career middle releivers, such as Vizcaino and Gaudin are are rarely going to dazzle anyone, so you just have to go for the guy most likely to get the ball from the starter to the set up man with minimal damage. With guys like Vizcaino and Gaudin, you pretty much know what to expect, so why not give the younger guy a chance, and see what he can be? If they stink up the place, then you can go out and get another Vizcaino or Gaudin type for a dime a dozen.

 

Not really.

 

Throwing away a guy who can start with a proven league average ERA for a 24 year old reliever who can't get past A+ just because he had a good spring training would be an awful, awful move.

 

Seriously guys, these are spring training numbers.

 

Rocky Cherry.

[17 Seconds]

Gaudin doesn't? He now has 449 career innings of about league average numbers. With the injury risks in our rotation, guys like Gaudin who can pitch out of the pen and then do spot starts at a league average quality are valuable.

 

I don't really understand the sudden love for Patton. Yeah, he has good stuff. Lots of guys do. He's almost 25 and hasn't gotten past A+, hasn't even been good there, and we're dumping about dumping a proven commodity like Gaudin so we can make room for him. This is the very definition of putting way too much stock in spring training numbers.

 

Gaudin's performance has been very inconsistent.

 

I don't have love for Patton, I dislike veteran relievers assured of spots despite horrible performances because of contract situations.

 

Again, Gaudin has 449 career innings that show he is NOT horrible. It shows that he is about league average and can go from the pen to the rotation. That has value, especially on this team.

 

I don't think people realize how thin our starting pitching depth could get in a real hurry. You can't go trading away guys that are proven to be average in that role just because you want to make way for a guy with good spring training numbers.

[dew1679666265]

Yeah, I don't understand everyone's willingness to throw Gaudin away. Vizcaino, fine, he's old and not that good. I'm not throwing away Chad Gaudin so Patton can suck for a month and get returned to the Rockies.

 

Yeah, I don't really understand wanting to dump Gaudin for nothing either. I don't see how Patton is a better bet to produce than Gaudin. If it was a matter of whether to pay Gaudin ~$3 million or Patton the minimum, then I could see the argument, but we're paying Gaudin either way, so I don't see the problem with keeping him.

 

I wouldn't mind it, however, if Hendry could work out some kind trade to keep Patton. Not giving up too much, but Patton seems to have potential.

[jersey cubs fan]

Yeah, I don't understand everyone's willingness to throw Gaudin away. Vizcaino, fine, he's old and not that good. I'm not throwing away Chad Gaudin so Patton can suck for a month and get returned to the Rockies.

 

He was a god awful drunk who entered Lou's doghouse immediately and hasn't shown any glimmer of hope since.

 

A god awful drunk? Where does this stuff even come from? There's a rumor about his injury happeneing when he was drunk and suddenly he's a drunk? Adults are allowed to drink guys.

 

A god awful pitcher who is a drunk. He's a drunk because he got injured drinking. I'm all for boozing it up, but when it gets in the way of your work, you have a problem.

 

C'mon dude. He happened to get hurt when when he was supposedly drinking. That means he's a drunk?

 

How many players drink from time to time? A LOT. Any one of them could have slipped and fallen while they were drunk. Calling Gaudin a drunk because of one incident is not fair at all. It's ridiculous. What if you slipped while drunk and couldn't work for the next couple weeks. Would that mean you have a problem and are a drunk? No, it would just mean you got unlucky. Gaudin is no different from anybody else.

 

If your drinking leads to problems at work or family life, you have a drinking problem. Dude.

[jersey cubs fan]

Gaudin doesn't? He now has 449 career innings of about league average numbers. With the injury risks in our rotation, guys like Gaudin who can pitch out of the pen and then do spot starts at a league average quality are valuable.

 

I don't really understand the sudden love for Patton. Yeah, he has good stuff. Lots of guys do. He's almost 25 and hasn't gotten past A+, hasn't even been good there, and we're dumping about dumping a proven commodity like Gaudin so we can make room for him. This is the very definition of putting way too much stock in spring training numbers.

 

Gaudin's performance has been very inconsistent.

 

I don't have love for Patton, I dislike veteran relievers assured of spots despite horrible performances because of contract situations.

 

Again, Gaudin has 449 career innings that show he is NOT horrible. It shows that he is about league average and can go from the pen to the rotation. That has value, especially on this team.

 

I don't think people realize how thin our starting pitching depth could get in a real hurry. You can't go trading away guys that are proven to be average in that role just because you want to make way for a guy with good spring training numbers.

 

You disputed the statement that he doesn't have a track record of sustained success. He's been inconsistent. And ever since he became a Cub, he's sucked. Middle reliever types and the kind of guys who occasional spot start, guys who aren't good enough to start on a regular basis in the rotation or be lockdown relievers, are notoriously inconsistent. The fact that his average performance in the majors has been relatively average doesn't change anything.

[jersey cubs fan]

Yeah, I don't understand everyone's willingness to throw Gaudin away. Vizcaino, fine, he's old and not that good. I'm not throwing away Chad Gaudin so Patton can suck for a month and get returned to the Rockies.

 

Yeah, I don't really understand wanting to dump Gaudin for nothing either. I don't see how Patton is a better bet to produce than Gaudin. If it was a matter of whether to pay Gaudin ~$3 million or Patton the minimum, then I could see the argument, but we're paying Gaudin either way, so I don't see the problem with keeping him.

 

I wouldn't mind it, however, if Hendry could work out some kind trade to keep Patton. Not giving up too much, but Patton seems to have potential.

 

Is everybody willing to throw Gaudin away for nothing or wanting to dump him for nothing? I feel like I missed something.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah, I don't understand everyone's willingness to throw Gaudin away. Vizcaino, fine, he's old and not that good. I'm not throwing away Chad Gaudin so Patton can suck for a month and get returned to the Rockies.

 

Yeah, I don't really understand wanting to dump Gaudin for nothing either. I don't see how Patton is a better bet to produce than Gaudin. If it was a matter of whether to pay Gaudin ~$3 million or Patton the minimum, then I could see the argument, but we're paying Gaudin either way, so I don't see the problem with keeping him.

 

I wouldn't mind it, however, if Hendry could work out some kind trade to keep Patton. Not giving up too much, but Patton seems to have potential.

 

Is everybody willing to throw Gaudin away for nothing or wanting to dump him for nothing? I feel like I missed something.

 

How we gonna get anything for an alcoholic whose pitching skills are a dime a dozen?

[17 Seconds]

Gaudin doesn't? He now has 449 career innings of about league average numbers. With the injury risks in our rotation, guys like Gaudin who can pitch out of the pen and then do spot starts at a league average quality are valuable.

 

I don't really understand the sudden love for Patton. Yeah, he has good stuff. Lots of guys do. He's almost 25 and hasn't gotten past A+, hasn't even been good there, and we're dumping about dumping a proven commodity like Gaudin so we can make room for him. This is the very definition of putting way too much stock in spring training numbers.

 

Gaudin's performance has been very inconsistent.

 

I don't have love for Patton, I dislike veteran relievers assured of spots despite horrible performances because of contract situations.

 

Again, Gaudin has 449 career innings that show he is NOT horrible. It shows that he is about league average and can go from the pen to the rotation. That has value, especially on this team.

 

I don't think people realize how thin our starting pitching depth could get in a real hurry. You can't go trading away guys that are proven to be average in that role just because you want to make way for a guy with good spring training numbers.

 

You disputed the statement that he doesn't have a track record of sustained success. He's been inconsistent. And ever since he became a Cub, he's sucked. Middle reliever types and the kind of guys who occasional spot start, guys who aren't good enough to start on a regular basis in the rotation or be lockdown relievers, are notoriously inconsistent. The fact that his average performance in the majors has been relatively average doesn't change anything.

 

That doesn't real make any sense. He's proven to be league avaerage for an extended period of time. Whether he's consistent or not doesn't change that. It sounds like you're looking for ways to discredit him. 449 innings worth of numbers is 449 innings worth of numbers. You ewant to throw that away because of a tiny portion of that in which you happened to watch. You're not recognizing sample size.

 

And saying that he sucked since he came to the Cubs is just incorrect. He was great in his first 19.2 innings with the team..... with a 2.75 ERA, a WHIP under 1, and a 21/5 K/B. Then he sucked in his last 7.2 innings, most of which came after the injury.

[17 Seconds]

Yeah, I don't understand everyone's willingness to throw Gaudin away. Vizcaino, fine, he's old and not that good. I'm not throwing away Chad Gaudin so Patton can suck for a month and get returned to the Rockies.

 

He was a god awful drunk who entered Lou's doghouse immediately and hasn't shown any glimmer of hope since.

 

A god awful drunk? Where does this stuff even come from? There's a rumor about his injury happeneing when he was drunk and suddenly he's a drunk? Adults are allowed to drink guys.

 

A god awful pitcher who is a drunk. He's a drunk because he got injured drinking. I'm all for boozing it up, but when it gets in the way of your work, you have a problem.

 

C'mon dude. He happened to get hurt when when he was supposedly drinking. That means he's a drunk?

 

How many players drink from time to time? A LOT. Any one of them could have slipped and fallen while they were drunk. Calling Gaudin a drunk because of one incident is not fair at all. It's ridiculous. What if you slipped while drunk and couldn't work for the next couple weeks. Would that mean you have a problem and are a drunk? No, it would just mean you got unlucky. Gaudin is no different from anybody else.

 

If your drinking leads to problems at work or family life, you have a drinking problem. Dude.

 

Lol what? You make no sense. You said "I'm all for boozing it up". Okay, so let's say you drink from time to time... meaning you don't have a problem. Isn't it true that you could slip and fall during any of those times and hurt your leg? If that happened that wouldn't suddenly mean you have a problem. That's just ridiculous.

 

That's like saying someone has a drinking problem because they got in a car accident on the way to the store to buy beer for a party.

[dew1679666265]

Yeah, I don't understand everyone's willingness to throw Gaudin away. Vizcaino, fine, he's old and not that good. I'm not throwing away Chad Gaudin so Patton can suck for a month and get returned to the Rockies.

 

Yeah, I don't really understand wanting to dump Gaudin for nothing either. I don't see how Patton is a better bet to produce than Gaudin. If it was a matter of whether to pay Gaudin ~$3 million or Patton the minimum, then I could see the argument, but we're paying Gaudin either way, so I don't see the problem with keeping him.

 

I wouldn't mind it, however, if Hendry could work out some kind trade to keep Patton. Not giving up too much, but Patton seems to have potential.

 

Is everybody willing to throw Gaudin away for nothing or wanting to dump him for nothing? I feel like I missed something.

 

That's the feeling I got from your posts. Comments like "A god awful pitcher" and "ever since he became a Cub, he's sucked" and "I dislike veteran relievers assured of spots despite horrible performances because of contract situations" don't make me think you see a high return for him.

 

I wouldn't be against trading Gaudin, but I would want something decent for an average 26-year-old reliever/starter who has a little upside.

[Guest]

Enough with the Rocky Cherry, thing, btw. I could just as easily point out that Joakim Soria or any number of other successful rule 5 guys never made it past A-ball, either.

 

As for clearing a spot for him by moving / cutting one of Gaudin/Vizcaino, I don't think anyone is proposing to cut Gaudin. You trade Gaudin if you can get something useful for him or you dispose of Vizcaino in the most efficient manner possible. I haven't seen anyone propose anything different.

[jersey cubs fan]

That doesn't real make any sense. He's proven to be league avaerage for an extended period of time. Whether he's consistent or not doesn't change that. It sounds like you're looking for ways to discredit him. 449 innings worth of numbers is 449 innings worth of numbers. You ewant to throw that away because of a tiny portion of that in which you happened to watch. You're not recognizing sample size.

 

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. I said he doesn't have a track record of sustained success worthy of a guaranteed job. Contract situations are the only reason he's nearly a lock. He has filled in admirably as a starter, but he's also pitched fairly unimpressively for stretches. Since hurting himself while drunk last year. His lack of top talent, the reason he's not a starting pitcher or a top notch reliever, suggests he's just another inconsistent arm.

[jersey cubs fan]

Lol what? You make no sense. You said "I'm all for boozing it up". Okay, so let's say you drink from time to time... meaning you don't have a problem. Isn't it true that you could slip and fall during any of those times and hurt your leg? If that happened that wouldn't suddenly mean you have a problem. That's just ridiculous.

 

That's like saying someone has a drinking problem because they got in a car accident on the way to the store to buy beer for a party.

 

No, it's nothing like that. Nobody with any sense of logic would think so. If you got in a car accident because you were drunk, you have a problem. If you hurt yourself while drinking to the point of not being able to perform your job, you have problem.

[17 Seconds]

You trade Gaudin if you can get something useful for him or you dispose of Vizcaino in the most efficient manner possible. I haven't seen anyone propose anything different.

 

I've seen at least one person that said he wished they'd get rid of Gaudin for patton if "somebody picked up part of the tab on him". Meaning he'd be okay with even eating part of Gaudin's contract just to get rid of him.

 

Either way, the debate is whether or not Gaudin helps this team more than Patton.

[dew1679666265]

Enough with the Rocky Cherry, thing, btw. I could just as easily point out that Joakim Soria or any number of other successful rule 5 guys never made it past A-ball, either.

 

As for clearing a spot for him by moving / cutting one of Gaudin/Vizcaino, I don't think anyone is proposing to cut Gaudin. You trade Gaudin if you can get something useful for him or you dispose of Vizcaino in the most efficient manner possible. I haven't seen anyone propose anything different.

 

I have no problem with trading Gaudin if we get something decent in return. I also wouldn't hate cutting Vizcaino (or trading him for something minor) to give Patton a shot.

 

I just thought goony was lumping Gaudin and Vizcaino together a bit much. Gaudin has some real value, Vizcaino does not. If I misunderstood his comments, that's my mistake, though.

[dew1679666265]

You trade Gaudin if you can get something useful for him or you dispose of Vizcaino in the most efficient manner possible. I haven't seen anyone propose anything different.

 

I've seen at least one person that said he wished they'd get rid of Gaudin for patton if "somebody picked up part of the tab on him". Meaning he'd be okay with even eating part of Gaudin's contract just to get rid of him.

 

Either way, the debate is whether or not Gaudin helps this team more than Patton.

 

My thoughts would be either dump Vizcaino and take a chance with Patton or try to work out a deal for Patton where we're not getting fleeced.

 

I don't think Gaudin should factor in at all.

[jersey cubs fan]

Enough with the Rocky Cherry, thing, btw. I could just as easily point out that Joakim Soria or any number of other successful rule 5 guys never made it past A-ball, either.

 

As for clearing a spot for him by moving / cutting one of Gaudin/Vizcaino, I don't think anyone is proposing to cut Gaudin. You trade Gaudin if you can get something useful for him or you dispose of Vizcaino in the most efficient manner possible. I haven't seen anyone propose anything different.

 

I have no problem with trading Gaudin if we get something decent in return. I also wouldn't hate cutting Vizcaino (or trading him for something minor) to give Patton a shot.

 

I just thought goony was lumping Gaudin and Vizcaino together a bit much. Gaudin has some real value, Vizcaino does not. If I misunderstood his comments, that's my mistake, though.

 

I made it clear that Vizcaino was the real problem. But Gaudin gets lumped because he's also a middle reliever who is struggling big time but virtually guaranteed a spot because of contract situations.

[17 Seconds]

That doesn't real make any sense. He's proven to be league avaerage for an extended period of time. Whether he's consistent or not doesn't change that. It sounds like you're looking for ways to discredit him. 449 innings worth of numbers is 449 innings worth of numbers. You ewant to throw that away because of a tiny portion of that in which you happened to watch. You're not recognizing sample size.

 

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. I said he doesn't have a track record of sustained success worthy of a guaranteed job. Contract situations are the only reason he's nearly a lock. He has filled in admirably as a starter, but he's also pitched fairly unimpressively for stretches. Since hurting himself while drunk last year. His lack of top talent, the reason he's not a starting pitcher or a top notch reliever, suggests he's just another inconsistent arm.

 

Overall performance is far more important than how those numbers were achieved. How many leage average pitchers aren't inconsistent? What does that even mean? Where does it come from? The fact that he was bad for like 8 innings when he was with the Cubs.

 

Pushing aside a huge sample ize worth of numbers because "he's inconsistent" sounds a lot like you're tryong to find ways to talk him down.

[dew1679666265]

Enough with the Rocky Cherry, thing, btw. I could just as easily point out that Joakim Soria or any number of other successful rule 5 guys never made it past A-ball, either.

 

As for clearing a spot for him by moving / cutting one of Gaudin/Vizcaino, I don't think anyone is proposing to cut Gaudin. You trade Gaudin if you can get something useful for him or you dispose of Vizcaino in the most efficient manner possible. I haven't seen anyone propose anything different.

 

I have no problem with trading Gaudin if we get something decent in return. I also wouldn't hate cutting Vizcaino (or trading him for something minor) to give Patton a shot.

 

I just thought goony was lumping Gaudin and Vizcaino together a bit much. Gaudin has some real value, Vizcaino does not. If I misunderstood his comments, that's my mistake, though.

 

I made it clear that Vizcaino was the real problem. But Gaudin gets lumped because he's also a middle reliever who is struggling big time but virtually guaranteed a spot because of contract situations.

 

Ok. I don't really have a problem with Gaudin being guaranteed a spot, though. He's proven over time that he'll likely end up with average (or so) numbers for us and we're paying his salary anyway. We can't option him down without risking losing him, so I'd say just keep him around. Especially since it's unlikely we really have any better options.

[17 Seconds]

Lol what? You make no sense. You said "I'm all for boozing it up". Okay, so let's say you drink from time to time... meaning you don't have a problem. Isn't it true that you could slip and fall during any of those times and hurt your leg? If that happened that wouldn't suddenly mean you have a problem. That's just ridiculous.

 

That's like saying someone has a drinking problem because they got in a car accident on the way to the store to buy beer for a party.

 

No, it's nothing like that. Nobody with any sense of logic would think so. If you got in a car accident because you were drunk, you have a problem. If you hurt yourself while drinking to the point of not being able to perform your job, you have problem.

 

I don't know how you can criticize my logic when you're saying a person who happened to slip and fall while drinking automatically has a drinking problem.

 

I'll ask you this again. Do you EVER drink? Isn't it true that you could easily slip and hurt your leg while drunk, just as you could do it while sober? Answer me those questions.

 

Slipping and falling while intoxicated doesn't mean you have a drinking problem. It means you're unlucky. Saying otherwise is completely ridiculous and you know it.

[Tracer Bullet]

If you hurt yourself while drinking to the point of not being able to perform your job, you have problem.

 

This statement is horribly overbroad and you know it, but refuse to back down from it. It's illogical and completely unreasonable to state as an absolute that anyone that has ever gotten hurt "to the point of not being able to perform you job" while drinking has a drinking problem.

[JeffH]

jersey, leave the hyperbole to me, you amateur!

[Backtobanks]

Yeah, I don't understand everyone's willingness to throw Gaudin away. Vizcaino, fine, he's old and not that good. I'm not throwing away Chad Gaudin so Patton can suck for a month and get returned to the Rockies.

 

Yeah, I don't really understand wanting to dump Gaudin for nothing either. I don't see how Patton is a better bet to produce than Gaudin. If it was a matter of whether to pay Gaudin ~$3 million or Patton the minimum, then I could see the argument, but we're paying Gaudin either way, so I don't see the problem with keeping him.

 

I wouldn't mind it, however, if Hendry could work out some kind trade to keep Patton. Not giving up too much, but Patton seems to have potential.

 

Is everybody willing to throw Gaudin away for nothing or wanting to dump him for nothing? I feel like I missed something.

 

That's the feeling I got from your posts. Comments like "A god awful pitcher" and "ever since he became a Cub, he's sucked" and "I dislike veteran relievers assured of spots despite horrible performances because of contract situations" don't make me think you see a high return for him.

 

I wouldn't be against trading Gaudin, but I would want something decent for an average 26-year-old reliever/starter who has a little upside.

 

I posted that I thought Hendry ought to be able to get something for Gaudin. If you tie this thread in with the "Trade Targets" thread, maybe Gaudin can get us a decent backup 3B/1B who can pinch hit.

[dew1679666265]

I posted that I thought Hendry ought to be able to get something for Gaudin. If you tie this thread in with the "Trade Targets" thread, maybe Gaudin can get us a decent backup 3B/1B who can pinch hit.

 

I'd want somebody better than the guys on the list you posted if we gave up Gaudin, but I wouldn't be against the idea.