2009 Chicago Bears offseason

[jersey cubs fan]

Definitely. However, I'm starting to think that signing a FA every couple years may be the way to go. If Williams works out and Beekman is good enough, the left side of the line is fine. You can plug in a John Tait like, early 30s lineman on the right side and get some success there. Then you can draft a RG/RT or center in the middle rounds and be fine.

 

Ideally, yes, teams could and should fix their lines by signing FA (and not 34-36 year olds) every couple years, and maybe taking a mid round guard here and there. But the Bears ignored their line for far too long to be that patient.

 

We don't even know if Williams is going to work out. At this point, is there any reason to assume he'll be better than Robert Gallery was for Oakland? He couldn't beat out JSC even late in the season? Sure, this staff is generally overly patient with incumbents, but Williams' best attribute was that he was supposed to be the closest to starter caliber of the second tier of lineman. He was never the most highly regarded, and he was not thought of as a stud by any stretch. He was going to be a servicable immediate fill-in. But that's what JSC ("turnstile" with the Dolphins) was this year.

 

And it doesn't help when you cut your 7th round project so you can bring back the worthless Fred Miller. That was a bad personel decision prompted by unwise coaching demands.

[Banedon]

I think people are too quick to blame Orton's late season struggles on the injured ankle. Sure, that does not help but he was making some questionable throws and missing on some deep balls before he got hurt. The Carolina game in particular stands out in my mind.....he could have easily thrown at least 4 picks in that game including a couple pick 6's but the Panthers defenders had brick hands. He also missed a wide open Booker deep on a play that could have won the game for the Bears.

 

Having said all that, yes Kyle is "serviceable" until something better comes along.

 

Also regarding Tommie Harris, I'll dig for a link later on but there was a medical report from when he was drafted that stated he had the body of a 35 year old man at the time. Which is to say, his body wasn't in the greatest shape even as a rookie and it makes sense when you look at how much he has been injured in his career already.

 

Your first paragraph says we can't let Orton have the injury excuse, but your last paragraph builds Tommie Harris's injury case for him. Why is injury a valid excuse for one and not the other?

 

Averaging game ratings, I've got his ratings for the 7 games before the injury at 91.1 (I threw out the game he got injured since he only played about a half a game of football.)

 

For the 7 games after the injury...66.95

 

The back half included 3 games under 50, and one that was 65.1....he didn't have anything below 71 in the first half.

[Wilson A2000]

The thing w/ Pennington though is that he doesn't make mistakes. You can't have severe limitations in your game AND make poor reads and throws on top of it. I think Orton will get it with experience, though, if allowed. After all, you saw guys like Pennington, Testeverde, Dilfer, and Collins all have success after some pretty crappy early seasons. The question is how long do you wait? None of the above had the success with their original teams.

 

Pennington had success with his original team, at least as much as he's had so far this year.

 

In 2002 he had a better statistical year with a rating a over 100. I didn't know he was that good.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think people are too quick to blame Orton's late season struggles on the injured ankle. Sure, that does not help but he was making some questionable throws and missing on some deep balls before he got hurt. The Carolina game in particular stands out in my mind.....he could have easily thrown at least 4 picks in that game including a couple pick 6's but the Panthers defenders had brick hands. He also missed a wide open Booker deep on a play that could have won the game for the Bears.

 

He also dealt with some horrible drops by Booker and Davis, and in that Caroline game, Olsen more or less lost the game on his own.

 

As you said, he is servicable. He's not a franchise QB. But he's going to be as reliable as most veterans out there. He's about 30 games into his pro career, and has done about as well as Drew Brees did in his first couple years worth of games. I don't see him ever doing as well as Brees, but if he played in a dome or southern california, who knows? I'd stick with Orton for now, draft a QB in the top 4 rounds, and look for young waiver wire types. It would be nice if these QBs had a better coach to develop them, somebody who has actually developed an NFL QB at one point in his career.

[Wilson A2000]

Is it possible that he gets better at throwing the deep ball or is this just what Kyle will be? You can get a deep threat, but if you can't throw it to him, he will be useless.

 

I was a little surprised at the poor decision-making that Kyle has showcased lately. I thought he at least had that going for him (i.e. not running for the first down yesterday).

[Sosa21MVP]

I think people are too quick to blame Orton's late season struggles on the injured ankle. Sure, that does not help but he was making some questionable throws and missing on some deep balls before he got hurt. The Carolina game in particular stands out in my mind.....he could have easily thrown at least 4 picks in that game including a couple pick 6's but the Panthers defenders had brick hands. He also missed a wide open Booker deep on a play that could have won the game for the Bears.

 

Having said all that, yes Kyle is "serviceable" until something better comes along.

 

Also regarding Tommie Harris, I'll dig for a link later on but there was a medical report from when he was drafted that stated he had the body of a 35 year old man at the time. Which is to say, his body wasn't in the greatest shape even as a rookie and it makes sense when you look at how much he has been injured in his career already.

 

Your first paragraph says we can't let Orton have the injury excuse, but your last paragraph builds Tommie Harris's injury case for him. Why is injury a valid excuse for one and not the other?

 

Averaging game ratings, I've got his ratings for the 7 games before the injury at 91.1 (I threw out the game he got injured since he only played about a half a game of football.)

 

For the 7 games after the injury...66.95

 

The back half included 3 games under 50, and one that was 65.1....he didn't have anything below 71 in the first half.

 

What are you talking about? All I was saying about Tommie is that he is probably injury prone because his body wasn't in great shape before he even played in a NFL game. I saw somebody comment that a 100% Tommie makes the defense so much better.......more or less I'm saying, don't count on a 100% Tommie anytime soon.

 

Those QB rating numbers are fine and nice but it doesn't change the fact Orton was making some poor reads and poor deep throws before he got injured. Like I said, if the Panthers defenders could have caught a cold that day then your numbers wouldn't look so hot. But I should overlook that based on the raw stats and not what I see in the games? Okay then.

[Sosa21MVP]

I think people are too quick to blame Orton's late season struggles on the injured ankle. Sure, that does not help but he was making some questionable throws and missing on some deep balls before he got hurt. The Carolina game in particular stands out in my mind.....he could have easily thrown at least 4 picks in that game including a couple pick 6's but the Panthers defenders had brick hands. He also missed a wide open Booker deep on a play that could have won the game for the Bears.

 

He also dealt with some horrible drops by Booker and Davis, and in that Caroline game, Olsen more or less lost the game on his own.

 

As you said, he is servicable. He's not a franchise QB. But he's going to be as reliable as most veterans out there. He's about 30 games into his pro career, and has done about as well as Drew Brees did in his first couple years worth of games. I don't see him ever doing as well as Brees, but if he played in a dome or southern california, who knows? I'd stick with Orton for now, draft a QB in the top 4 rounds, and look for young waiver wire types. It would be nice if these QBs had a better coach to develop them, somebody who has actually developed an NFL QB at one point in his career.

 

That would a fine plan by me.

[Banedon]

What are you talking about? All I was saying about Tommie is that he is probably injury prone because his body wasn't in great shape before he even played in a NFL game. I saw somebody comment that a 100% Tommie makes the defense so much better.......more or less I'm saying, don't count on a 100% Tommie anytime soon.

 

Those QB rating numbers are fine and nice but it doesn't change the fact Orton was making some poor reads and poor deep throws before he got injured. Like I said, if the Panthers defenders could have caught a cold that day then your numbers wouldn't look so hot. But I should overlook that based on the raw stats and not what I see in the games? Okay then.

 

You can't count the "almost" misses without counting the "almost" catches though. You can't say he nearly threw picks without counting all the drops by the receivers, or blown routes. The raw numbers are the only facts on the table here. And they show a difference in performance from before the injury, to after.

 

And that's fine about Tommie, I'm not debating that he's got injury issues...that's a no-brainer. All I was pointing out is that you didn't want to be quick on the trigger giving Orton a break due to injury...and then mentioned Tommie's injury issues later. Maybe it was a false comparison on my part, but I was simply pointing out that injuries do affect performance, as Tommie has shown...and that while you're concerned about a quick trigger...it's also not to be dismissed.

[jersey cubs fan]

Is it possible that he gets better at throwing the deep ball or is this just what Kyle will be? You can get a deep threat, but if you can't throw it to him, he will be useless.

 

I was a little surprised at the poor decision-making that Kyle has showcased lately. I thought he at least had that going for him (i.e. not running for the first down yesterday).

 

It's possible. I think he's got a better arm than pennington, for one, but he's got to get use to his limitations. I don't think he ever had a receiver like Hester before, and learning to lead that type of speed can be difficult for all but the very best QB talents. I think Orton tried to do too much late in the season. For what I assume were physical reasons, Forte missed extended sequences in several recent games. And when Forte was out, the running game was putrid. He never had time to sit and look through his reads, so it was just a matter of dropping back throwing to your best early option and hoping for the best.

[Sosa21MVP]

What are you talking about? All I was saying about Tommie is that he is probably injury prone because his body wasn't in great shape before he even played in a NFL game. I saw somebody comment that a 100% Tommie makes the defense so much better.......more or less I'm saying, don't count on a 100% Tommie anytime soon.

 

Those QB rating numbers are fine and nice but it doesn't change the fact Orton was making some poor reads and poor deep throws before he got injured. Like I said, if the Panthers defenders could have caught a cold that day then your numbers wouldn't look so hot. But I should overlook that based on the raw stats and not what I see in the games? Okay then.

 

You can't count the "almost" misses without counting the "almost" catches though. You can't say he nearly threw picks without counting all the drops by the receivers, or blown routes. The raw numbers are the only facts on the table here. And they show a difference in performance from before the injury, to after.

 

And that's fine about Tommie, I'm not debating that he's got injury issues...that's a no-brainer. All I was pointing out is that you didn't want to be quick on the trigger giving Orton a break due to injury...and then mentioned Tommie's injury issues later. Maybe it was a false comparison on my part, but I was simply pointing out that injuries do affect performance, as Tommie has shown...and that while you're concerned about a quick trigger...it's also not to be dismissed.

 

That is fine but my comments on Tommie's injury issues was a tangent unrelated to any point I was making about Orton. I don't think we can expect a 100% Tommie for anywhere near a full season and even when he was "healthy" he was a non factor at times.

 

Also I don't think Orton should have came back for the first Packers game. He should have gotten at least two if not three full weeks of rest to try and get that ankle healed up a little better.

 

My main point I was attempting to make (perhaps poorly) about Orton was I saw some things in him that made me nervous before the injury. I wasn't trying to pin the Carolina loss on him, I understand Olsen fumbled the ball and other things happened but that game just stood out for me because of some of his bad throws and at that point in the season, I worried about how consistent Kyle would be. Now he did have some really solid games after that. After the Atlanta game I felt better about him overall. But I never reached a point of feeling completely sold on Kyle as The Guy. Then he got hurt.

 

Kyle says the ankle bothered him, I'm not going to argue with Kyle. I'm not really trying to be hard headed about the whole thing, I just don't believe EVERY bad throw or bad game he had post-injury was directly a result of the ankle because some of the bad throws were just poor reads and I recalled him making similar throws before the injury. That is all.

 

I really do hope the guy has a solid 2009 season. I have nothing against him.

[Guest]

On Orton...

 

The announcers in the last several games were really harping on him for staring down his chosen receiver, leading to some db's getting great breaks on the passes. There seemed to be some merit to that. If that is something that defenses picked up on mid-way through the season, that could explain the change in performance level as easily as the injury.

[Soul]

Here's a strike against Lovie. He's already anointed Orton as the starter for next year.

 

All players will have competition,'' Bears coach Lovie Smith said, according to Chicago media outlets. ''Everybody's in the same group. But Kyle is our quarterback. He has done a lot of good things for us this year, but we all start from scratch and go from there.

 

This doesn't bother me. Some of the stuff Lovie has said indicating they were "close" this year does, but they have so many other areas that need fixing...draft a QB, let him sit behind Orton and learn. This team can be successful with Orton as QB.

 

I really think they need some type of weapon on that offense other than Matt Forte and Greg Olsen. If they don't replace Orton with somebody better, they should find a receiver better than Hester.

 

I wholeheartedly agree on WR. But if Orton really was playing on a gimpy ankle in the second half of the season, I think he deserves another shot at it while we upgrade both lines, and WR.

 

Orton is serviceable, you're right. Upgrades to the o-line and receiver should be enough to hide his flaws.

 

I love that we always talk in terms of hiding our QB's flaws, rather than just getting an actual good QB.

[Banedon]

Kyle says the ankle bothered him, I'm not going to argue with Kyle. I'm not really trying to be hard headed about the whole thing, I just don't believe EVERY bad throw or bad game he had post-injury was directly a result of the ankle because some of the bad throws were just poor reads and I recalled him making similar throws before the injury. That is all.

 

I really do hope the guy has a solid 2009 season. I have nothing against him.

 

Agreed. Kyle may have had some injury stuff going on, but he also made some bad plays. He's a young developing QB, and hopefully those mistakes become fewer. I'd like to see at least one more year of him before we start coming to any conclusions.

[dew1679666265]

Orton is serviceable, you're right. Upgrades to the o-line and receiver should be enough to hide his flaws.

 

I love that we always talk in terms of hiding our QB's flaws, rather than just getting an actual good QB.

 

True, though not that many teams have good QBs. Most have to build a team to minimize the QBs flaws. Like the Titans, though, the Bears' QB just has more flaw than many of the others.

 

And there's not much QB depth in this draft. Stafford and Bradford will go early, but otherwise you might have Tebow and Mark Sanchez and then seniors include Rhett Bomar (very interesting), Josh Freeman, Graham Harrell and Nathan Brown. No sure fire good/great QBs after the top two.

[Soul]

Orton is serviceable, you're right. Upgrades to the o-line and receiver should be enough to hide his flaws.

 

I love that we always talk in terms of hiding our QB's flaws, rather than just getting an actual good QB.

 

True, though not that many teams have good QBs. Most have to build a team to minimize the QBs flaws. Like the Titans, though, the Bears' QB just has more flaw than many of the others.

 

And there's not much QB depth in this draft. Stafford and Bradford will go early, but otherwise you might have Tebow and Mark Sanchez and then seniors include Rhett Bomar (very interesting), Josh Freeman, Graham Harrell and Nathan Brown. No sure fire good/great QBs after the top two.

 

Yeah, but this has been going on forever. There's always an excuse why we can't have a good QB. It's never anyone's fault. Yada yada. Bullpucky. Heads should roll over this, and they never do. Teams that sustain success in this league nearly always have a franchise-calibre QB guiding the ship for the long term. Yes, it's hard to find the guy -- but it needs to be a higher priority for our franchise. Until it is, you'll probably see periods of about a decade in between a year or two of success. Then back down into the doldrums again for another several years.

 

You won't see Indy/NE type success until you've got your Manning/Brady, in all likelihood.

[dew1679666265]

Orton is serviceable, you're right. Upgrades to the o-line and receiver should be enough to hide his flaws.

 

I love that we always talk in terms of hiding our QB's flaws, rather than just getting an actual good QB.

 

True, though not that many teams have good QBs. Most have to build a team to minimize the QBs flaws. Like the Titans, though, the Bears' QB just has more flaw than many of the others.

 

And there's not much QB depth in this draft. Stafford and Bradford will go early, but otherwise you might have Tebow and Mark Sanchez and then seniors include Rhett Bomar (very interesting), Josh Freeman, Graham Harrell and Nathan Brown. No sure fire good/great QBs after the top two.

 

Yeah, but this has been going on forever. There's always an excuse why we can't have a good QB. It's never anyone's fault. Yada yada. Bullpucky. Heads should roll over this, and they never do. Teams that sustain success in this league nearly always have a franchise-calibre QB guiding the ship for the long term. Yes, it's hard to find the guy -- but it needs to be a higher priority for our franchise. Until it is, you'll probably see periods of about a decade in between a year or two of success. Then back down into the doldrums again for another several years.

 

You won't see Indy/NE type success until you've got your Manning/Brady, in all likelihood.

 

I agree. To sustain success, there has to be a franchise QB. You can let one like Orton plug a hole for a couple of years, but eventually he'll have to be replaced.

[jersey cubs fan]

On Orton...

 

The announcers in the last several games were really harping on him for staring down his chosen receiver, leading to some db's getting great breaks on the passes. There seemed to be some merit to that. If that is something that defenses picked up on mid-way through the season, that could explain the change in performance level as easily as the injury.

 

I think it's clearly an issue, but part of the reason is he has no time to look through his reads.

[jersey cubs fan]

Yeah, but this has been going on forever. There's always an excuse why we can't have a good QB. It's never anyone's fault. Yada yada. Bullpucky. Heads should roll over this, and they never do. Teams that sustain success in this league nearly always have a franchise-calibre QB guiding the ship for the long term. Yes, it's hard to find the guy -- but it needs to be a higher priority for our franchise. Until it is, you'll probably see periods of about a decade in between a year or two of success. Then back down into the doldrums again for another several years.

 

You won't see Indy/NE type success until you've got your Manning/Brady, in all likelihood.

 

Part of the problem is management has always fed the fan's desire to be a defense first type team. Pass happy = pansy football to some. But this isn't going to change until they bring in a guy who can develop a QB. Their most "brilliant" offensive mind since I was born was Ditka. Ron Turner has had 3 big time jobs, twice as Bears OC and once as Illinois HC. He's never once developed a legit QB. They need to bring in a guy who has done it before, or find a guy who can legitimately do it now. And they need more coaches with NFL experience. Lovie's first group of coaches was almost exclusively from the college ranks, with Rivera one of the few exceptions.

[SpongeWorthy]

I think Orton's accuracy issues and bad decision making were more to blame than the pass protection. The protection wasn't great but it was there when it needed to be most of the time and he screwed it up a lot with errant throws.

 

When he was cruising in the middle of the year he was just flat out throwing a better, more accurate ball (take as an example of what should've been the winning TD pass against Atlanta--that ball was thrown in about a one foot window). I don't know whether it was the ankle or what but he never regained that once he came back from injury.

 

Obviously it doesn't help that the only receiver who could get consistent separation was Hester and he and others dropped the ball far too much.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think Orton's accuracy issues and bad decision making were more to blame than the pass protection. The protection wasn't great but it was there when it needed to be most of the time and he screwed it up a lot with errant throws.

 

It was there for the first 1.5 - 2.0 seconds of nearly every pass play, but that's about it. Orton made bad decisions and throws, I'm not claiming otherwise. He was never as bad as Grossman was at his worst, but he threw some doozies nonetheless. Those problems were exacerbated by the line, and they could see significant improvment in the passing game with better protection.

[jmajew]

A couple of points.

 

1) Orton injured his right ankle. Which was the ankle that he planted on when throwing the ball. This may have been a cause for the deep balls ending up a little short. Just a thought a on my part.

 

2) Jake Delhomme is by no means a star QB in this league but if you look at his team last year (when he was hurt) compared to this year you can see how much he meant to the team. I liken Orton to Delhomme.

 

3) Also look at how consistent the Panthers have been since they hired John Fox. That is a very good model for success in this league. The bears have shared the same consistency since Lovie has been the coach. You have a couple of good years then a couple of down years but they never drop out of respectibility. Bill Cohwer and Jeff Fisher are also two very similar coaches. All of whom also lost a super bowl pretty early on in their coaching careers. Cowher was eventually rewarded with his firt ring and I believe Fox and Fisher have a good shot at it this year.

 

4) The bears blitzed more than any team in the league this year and we still could not get pressure. This left even more holes for the receivers to find. We have a D-line that is unable to create pressure so Babich tried to offset that by blitzing. Unfortunately for Babich the blitzing didn't work after the Carolina game when teams figured it out and he is not a good enough coach to adjust his scheme.

 

5) With all that said the bears need 4 things done this offseason. Go out and get a legit # 1 reciever. I know the likes of Houzhmanzadeh, Burress, Boldin, and Harrison will be available. Then you fire Babich and you go out and get a run stuffing DT and then draft a safety in the 1st or 2nd rd. The DT will hopefully garner some double teams which will allow tommie to go more one on one.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

Why do I get the feeling Angelo is going to do something completly stupid like draft a WILL linebacker from a Division III school in the first round?

[Soul]

 

2) Jake Delhomme is by no means a star QB in this league but if you look at his team last year (when he was hurt) compared to this year you can see how much he meant to the team. I liken Orton to Delhomme.

 

3) Also look at how consistent the Panthers have been since they hired John Fox. That is a very good model for success in this league. The bears have shared the same consistency since Lovie has been the coach. You have a couple of good years then a couple of down years but they never drop out of respectibility. Bill Cohwer and Jeff Fisher are also two very similar coaches. All of whom also lost a super bowl pretty early on in their coaching careers. Cowher was eventually rewarded with his firt ring and I believe Fox and Fisher have a good shot at it this year.

 

Some pretty good stuff, but I don't believe Orton's the same as Delhomme. I think Jake's significantly better, even when he doesn't have Smith. Maybe not night-and-day better, but significantly.

 

Cowher also got his first ring once the Steelers located their franchise QB. Let's not forget that. Fisher's a good coach -- I don't think Lovie can hold a candle to him really (even though I'm not a Lovie basher like some). A big obstacle for him is having to go through the much tougher waters of the AFC to reach the promised land, unlike Fox.

[Handlebar McSkullet]

Holy Cats 7 pages already!!! Good work. I am only up to page 3 of the posts, but here are my responses to some of what has been said so far.

 

1. I think these fire Lovie statements are garbage, but ill get to that in a second. IMO always blaming the coaching staff for the failures of your team is lazy thinking. Now saying that its time to recognize those coaches which have done a solid job in developing what we have, and those who are not cutting it. I think Babich has to be a scapegoat. It’s not just where the team was 2 years ago, I think it’s the clear improvement that Rivera has shown since taking over the Chargers that points to a lack of ability by Babich. Simple logic shows that it’s not working. I also think Brick Haley(DL) and Steve Wilks (DB) should be held accountable as well. At some point, someone needs to be held accountable for the lack of development of Tommie Harris, Mark Anderson, and Dan Bazuin along with the failure of Darwin Walker. Also, the mental lapses of the defensive backs (not just yesterdays game), but the last two seasons are not acceptable. It seems that basic technique is lacking.

 

2. Now to Lovie. Comparing him to Mangini, Wanny, and Juron is baseless. You talk about how Mike Tomlin was able to get Pittsburgh to playoffs the last two years, but you forget one simple truth: Pittsburgh is a better team. So are the Jets. You cannot deny that this team should have been much worse than they were. They are 5 games better than what I predicted them at. They won 11 games with a rookie qb in 05, They went to the superbowl with a mediocre passing attack, and a defense that was a shell of itself the last half of the season. They won 7 games with 3 different starters at qb, one of the worst rushing offenses in the league, and a completely banged up and overrated defense. On top of all that, its not going to happen. Lovie was signed for 5 years starting in 2007, so he has 3 years left on his deal. So does Angelo and Phillips. Its not going to happen, I don’t believe it should.

 

3. Notwithstanding the previous statement, Mike Tomlin is an outstanding coach, and I have a semi man-crush on him. I will admit that one thing that sets Tomlin apart from Smith is that Tomlin coached the cover-2 and was a disciple of Lovie, Edwards, Dungy, and Kiffin, but when he got the job he didn’t try to change the defense or fire the best d-coordinator in football, Dick LeBeau. He just accepted the 3-4 and man coverage. I think Lovie need to evaluate his personnel and pick a new DC that will win games for them, not just if he fits the Cover 2. If he doesn’t, that will be his downfall.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

At some point, someone needs to be held accountable for the lack of development of Tommie Harris, Mark Anderson, and Dan Bazuin along with the failure of Darwin Walker. quote]

 

Dan Bazuin? I'm guessing Jerry Angelo on that one. That pick still pisses me off to this day. I want to throw a book at the wall just thinking about it.

 

At least the Thomas Jones trade gave the Bears a high 2nd round pick that they could have used on someone like Tony Ugoh. Instead they trade down to draft a player that would have been around in round 4, and at a position that was the deepest on the team. THen with the extra pick, they piss that away on Michael Owko. What a joke that draft was. I don't even think they were trying.