NL MVP Discussion

[CubFanBudMan68]

I think at this point, Lance Berkman is far and away the NL MVP. Even if the Astros fade from contention he has to get serious consideration. And if you dont like Berkman because of how the Astros are performing, Pujols has to be first in line among players from contending teams. Hanler Ramirez may fall into the same category that Berkman will depending on how the Marlins finish the season.

 

My top 10 are:

Berkman

Pujols

Hanley Ramirez

Ryan Ludwick

Pat Burrell

Ryan Braun

Chase Utley

Ryan Theriot

Jose Reyes

Mark DeRosa

[Ding Dong Johnson]

you had me until you said Theriot then I lost faith in humanity

[ConstableRabbit]

I think at this point, Lance Berkman is far and away the NL MVP. Even if the Astros fade from contention he has to get serious consideration. And if you dont like Berkman because of how the Astros are performing, Pujols has to be first in line among players from contending teams. Hanler Ramirez may fall into the same category that Berkman will depending on how the Marlins finish the season.

 

My top 10 are:

Berkman

Pujols

Hanley Ramirez

Ryan Ludwick

Pat Burrell

Ryan Braun

Chase Utley

Ryan Theriot

Jose Reyes

Mark DeRosa

How do you figure?

 

Pujols has him beat in everything that matters and some of what doesn't.

 

HR, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, EQA, WARP-1, WARP-2, WARP-3, better team.

 

Berkman has the advantage in games played, hits, runs, 2B, rbi, and SB, but I don't know how you can give it to him over Phat Albert.

[CubFanBudMan68]

you had me until you said Theriot then I lost faith in humanity

 

You dont think that Theriot has played a part in the Cubs success this year? Im not saying hes worthy of the award, but he is having a very good year. He has been the most consistent offensive performer on the best team in the NL this year.

 

As for Berkman vs Pujols, Pujols might have better counting stats at this point, but Berkman is outperforming him. Creating more runs, winning more games, better in the clutch.

[ConstableRabbit]

you had me until you said Theriot then I lost faith in humanity

 

You dont think that Theriot has played a part in the Cubs success this year? Im not saying hes worthy of the award, but he is having a very good year. He has been the most consistent offensive performer on the best team in the NL this year.

 

As for Berkman vs Pujols, Pujols might have better counting stats at this point, but Berkman is outperforming him. Creating more runs, winning more games, better in the clutch.

I don't like doing this, but to reiterate my previous post:

 

Pujols has him beat in everything that matters and some of what doesn't:

HR, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, EQA, WARP-1, WARP-2, WARP-3, better team.

 

Berkman has the advantage in games played, hits, runs, 2B, rbi, and SB.

[kjfoster 1553]

you had me until you said Theriot then I lost faith in humanity

 

You dont think that Theriot has played a part in the Cubs success this year? Im not saying hes worthy of the award, but he is having a very good year. He has been the most consistent offensive performer on the best team in the NL this year.

 

As for Berkman vs Pujols, Pujols might have better counting stats at this point, but Berkman is outperforming him. Creating more runs, winning more games, better in the clutch.

 

I've already tried this, and it doesn't hold water. See EqA for Cubs players in 2008.

 

EqA (considers batting as well as baserunning):

Edmonds: 316

Soriano: 297

Ramirez: 294

Soto: 288

DeRosa: 285

Lee: 279

Theriot: 271

Fukudome: 267

[bukie]

you had me until you said Theriot then I lost faith in humanity

 

You dont think that Theriot has played a part in the Cubs success this year? Im not saying hes worthy of the award, but he is having a very good year. He has been the most consistent offensive performer on the best team in the NL this year.

 

As for Berkman vs Pujols, Pujols might have better counting stats at this point, but Berkman is outperforming him. Creating more runs, winning more games, better in the clutch.

I don't like doing this, but to reiterate my previous post:

 

Pujols has him beat in everything that matters and some of what doesn't:

HR, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, EQA, WARP-1, WARP-2, WARP-3, better team.

 

Berkman has the advantage in games played, hits, runs, 2B, rbi, and SB.

 

Berkman also has the advantage in RC and WS, which are of course cumulative stats. Both Pujols and Berkman are close enough in all the statistics that either would have a decent argument in a statistical comparison.

 

Of course, the MVP voters are really only concerned with AVG/HR/RBI and team wins.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

You dont think that Theriot has played a part in the Cubs success this year? Im not saying hes worthy of the award, but he is having a very good year. He has been the most consistent offensive performer on the best team in the NL this year.

Henry Blanco has played a part in the Cubs success this year. I wouldn't put Theriot in the top 10 of the team MVP. I will not doubt he's been having a fine year by his standards, but he's one of the least productive offensive regulars on the team despite the sexy batting average

[bukie]

You dont think that Theriot has played a part in the Cubs success this year? Im not saying hes worthy of the award, but he is having a very good year. He has been the most consistent offensive performer on the best team in the NL this year.

Henry Blanco has played a part in the Cubs success this year. I wouldn't put Theriot in the top 10 of the team MVP. I will not doubt he's been having a fine year by his standards, but he's one of the least productive offensive regulars on the team despite the sexy batting average

Which isn't to say Theriot is hurting the team, either. He's just not helping as much as most of the rest of the lineup and rotation, which is a good problem for the Cubs to have.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

You dont think that Theriot has played a part in the Cubs success this year? Im not saying hes worthy of the award, but he is having a very good year. He has been the most consistent offensive performer on the best team in the NL this year.

Henry Blanco has played a part in the Cubs success this year. I wouldn't put Theriot in the top 10 of the team MVP. I will not doubt he's been having a fine year by his standards, but he's one of the least productive offensive regulars on the team despite the sexy batting average

Which isn't to say Theriot is hurting the team, either. He's just not helping as much as most of the rest of the lineup and rotation, which is a good problem for the Cubs to have.

correct

[SouthSideRyan]

You dont think that Theriot has played a part in the Cubs success this year? Im not saying hes worthy of the award, but he is having a very good year. He has been the most consistent offensive performer on the best team in the NL this year.

Henry Blanco has played a part in the Cubs success this year. I wouldn't put Theriot in the top 10 of the team MVP. I will not doubt he's been having a fine year by his standards, but he's one of the least productive offensive regulars on the team despite the sexy batting average

 

Eh, Theriot's gotta be top 10 on the team.

 

Soto

Zambrano

Dempster

Ramirez

Soriano

DeRosa

Edmonds

Theriot

Marmol

Wood

[TruffleShuffle]

theriot, of all people, is 3rd on the cubs in VORP.

[David]

Trying to come up with a list of Cubs MVP's usually results in a list of like 3/4 of the team. Pointless.

[Clem Fandango]

Lance Berkman shouldn't even be in the Top 5. A big first half has made him a favorite, but he has sucked some serious scrotum the 2nd half.

 

in 334 pre-ASB at bats:

.347/.443/.653/1.096 22HR 73RBI 15SB

 

in 109 post-ASB at bats so far:

.266/.375/.413/.788 3HR 16RBI 0SB

 

Unless he goes on a tear like he did the first half, he shouldn't even be in the talks for the Top 5 MVP. He has played like crap the 2nd half

[kjfoster 1553]

Lance Berkman shouldn't even be in the Top 5. A big first half has made him a favorite, but he has sucked some serious scrotum the 2nd half.

 

in 334 pre-ASB at bats:

.347/.443/.653/1.096 22HR 73RBI 15SB

 

in 109 post-ASB at bats so far:

.266/.375/.413/.788 3HR 16RBI 0SB

 

Unless he goes on a tear like he did the first half, he shouldn't even be in the talks for the Top 5 MVP. He has played like crap the 2nd half

 

MVP isn't who did the best in the 2nd half. Although he has sucked hard, the entire season is what is going to be looked at. No one that votes will even know he has had a terrible 2nd half.

[Clem Fandango]

Lance Berkman shouldn't even be in the Top 5. A big first half has made him a favorite, but he has sucked some serious scrotum the 2nd half.

 

in 334 pre-ASB at bats:

.347/.443/.653/1.096 22HR 73RBI 15SB

 

in 109 post-ASB at bats so far:

.266/.375/.413/.788 3HR 16RBI 0SB

 

Unless he goes on a tear like he did the first half, he shouldn't even be in the talks for the Top 5 MVP. He has played like crap the 2nd half

 

MVP isn't who did the best in the 2nd half. Although he has sucked hard, the entire season is what is going to be looked at. No one that votes will even know he has had a terrible 2nd half.

 

Well then couple it with the fact that his team will likely be nowhere near contention.

 

With recent trends, the MVP usually comes form a team that is either in the playoffs, or came close to being in the playoffs. The Astros won't even be close. And with players like Pujols, Utley, and Braun having such good years I don't think Berkman would get much consideration because of his team's inadequacies. Even though some of the other candidates haven't been that much better the 2nd half either

[Joe_Cub]

 

Eh, Theriot's gotta be top 10 on the team.

 

Soto

Zambrano

Dempster

Ramirez

Soriano

DeRosa

Edmonds

Theriot

Marmol

Wood

 

why zambrano over dempster? are you factoring in z's offense?

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Eh, Theriot's gotta be top 10 on the team.

 

Soto

Zambrano

Dempster

Ramirez

Soriano

DeRosa

Edmonds

Theriot

Marmol

Wood

 

why zambrano over dempster? are you factoring in z's offense?

 

Yep.

[Careless]

Not that Aramis should or would win, but saying he's only played 116 games is a little ridiculous. If he played the rest of this year's games, he'd have played 154. Even if he misses a few more here and there, it's not like you have to play all 162 to be considered.

Yes, that is easily the dumbest thing I've ever seen Neyer write. I had to read it twice and then check to make sure he wasn't projecting full season stats to believe he actually wrote it. that's awful from a generally smart guy

[laurens]

theriot, of all people, is 3rd on the cubs in VORP.

 

Sorry to derail the thread, and this may seem like a stupid question, but what's VORP?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

theriot, of all people, is 3rd on the cubs in VORP.

 

Sorry to derail the thread, and this may seem like a stupid question, but what's VORP?

Value Over Replacement Player. The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances. VORP scores do not consider the quality of a player's defense.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?search=vorp