Is This Cubs Rotation The Best In Recent Memory?

[CubsWin]

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, we were allowed to go back in time and pick any recent Cubs rotation for the stretch run this year which one would you pick? The pitcher would be the age that he was in the year that you select him and the injury risks would be the same though he would start out healthy. The only thing you can't do is mix and match pitchers from different years.

 

Would you choose this year's Zambrano, Harden, Dempster, Lilly and Marquis, 2004's Prior, Wood, Maddux, Clement and Zambrano or 2003's Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Clement and Estes? You can take into account each year's depth and other options for the rotation, too.

 

For me, I'm having a hard time going with any other staff than this year's. Is this really the best one in recent memory?

Edited August 4, 2008 by CubsWin

[CUBZ99]

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, we were allowed to go back in time and pick any recent Cubs rotation for the stretch run this year which one would you pick? The pitcher would be the age that he was in the year that you select him and the injury risks would be the same though he would start out healthy. The only thing you can't do is mix and match pitchers from different years.

 

Would you choose this year's Zambrano, Harden, Dempster, Lilly and Marquis, 2004's Prior, Wood, Maddux, Clement and Zambrano or 2003's Prior, Wood, Maddux, Clement and Estes? You can take into account each year's depth and other options for the rotation, too.

 

For me, I'm having a hard time going with any other staff than this year's. Is this really the best one is recent memory?

 

I take this year's version. Granted Dempster is pitching better than he has ever pitched in his life, but Z/Harden/Dempster are all pitching like #1's and Lilly has been a solid #3/4 with Marquis pitching respectable.

[rawaction]

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, we were allowed to go back in time and pick any recent Cubs rotation for the stretch run this year which one would you pick? The pitcher would be the age that he was in the year that you select him and the injury risks would be the same though he would start out healthy. The only thing you can't do is mix and match pitchers from different years.

 

Would you choose this year's Zambrano, Harden, Dempster, Lilly and Marquis, 2004's Prior, Wood, Maddux, Clement and Zambrano or 2003's Prior, Wood, Maddux, Clement and Estes? You can take into account each year's depth and other options for the rotation, too.

 

For me, I'm having a hard time going with any other staff than this year's. Is this really the best one is recent memory?

 

2003's rotation was Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Clement, Estes. Maddux was not on the team in 03.

 

The 04 rotation was the best, though, save for the injuries. Zambrano had his best year. Clement had his 2nd best year. Maddux was still an above average pitcher. Wood and Prior were coming off their best years in 03.

[bhogg]

This year's is the best because of the combination of talent and health.

[David]

2003 with Cruz instead of Estes

[erik316wttn]

2004. There wasn't a weak link in that rotation. I'd take that rotation, when healthy, and put it up against any rotation of the past 20 years, save for maybe any Braves rotation during their glory years.

[shnsajax]

The 89 Cubs had a real solid rotation. Maybe not as much talent but 4 pitchers who had real good years.

[Jehrico]

Assuming health all around, I'd take our '04 rotation over this one. But Harden makes it real, real close.

 

Prior-Wood-Z in 04 is comparable to Z-Harden-Demp this year. Clement-Maddux in 04 is considerably better than Lilly-Marquis this year.

[XZero771679666304]

2004. There wasn't a weak link in that rotation. I'd take that rotation, when healthy, and put it up against any rotation of the past 20 years, save for maybe any Braves rotation during their glory years.

 

 

I can't count 2004 because that rotation never really was the rotation. Had they been healthy all season, then yes, they might have been the best rotation I've seen in my lifetime.

 

But it was never anything more than an empty promise.

[Magnetic Curses]

The 89 Cubs had a real solid rotation. Maybe not as much talent but 4 pitchers who had real good years.

 

maddux

bielecki

sutcliffe

kilgus

sanderson

 

solid top 3 but kilgus and sanderson weren't good.

[Magnetic Curses]

i don't even mind marquis at the back of the rotation.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

i don't even mind marquis at the back of the rotation.

I remember too many seasons where Marquis wouldn't be at the back

[Amie]

When I consider not only talent, but also experience and maturity, I'll take this rotation hands down over any other I can remember.

[Careless]

If you replace Estes in 2003 with any other 5th starter from the years covered, is 2003 the frontrunner? We complain about Marquis, but he's not all that bad. If he wasn't getting $7 mil I wouldn't even care

[CubsWin]

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, we were allowed to go back in time and pick any recent Cubs rotation for the stretch run this year which one would you pick? The pitcher would be the age that he was in the year that you select him and the injury risks would be the same though he would start out healthy. The only thing you can't do is mix and match pitchers from different years.

 

Would you choose this year's Zambrano, Harden, Dempster, Lilly and Marquis, 2004's Prior, Wood, Maddux, Clement and Zambrano or 2003's Prior, Wood, Maddux, Clement and Estes? You can take into account each year's depth and other options for the rotation, too.

 

For me, I'm having a hard time going with any other staff than this year's. Is this really the best one is recent memory?

 

2003's rotation was Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Clement, Estes. Maddux was not on the team in 03.

 

The 04 rotation was the best, though, save for the injuries. Zambrano had his best year. Clement had his 2nd best year. Maddux was still an above average pitcher. Wood and Prior were coming off their best years in 03.

Thanks for catching that. Note to self: don't start threads when rushing out the door... :oops:

[CubsWin]

Assuming health all around, I'd take our '04 rotation over this one. But Harden makes it real, real close.

 

Prior-Wood-Z in 04 is comparable to Z-Harden-Demp this year. Clement-Maddux in 04 is considerably better than Lilly-Marquis this year.

I agree, but that's assuming health all around and not considering the depth of the two staffs as a whole. What if we took into consideration what we know about Prior and Wood's health risks just like we have to with Harden now? They are all currently healthy, but...

 

Would that change anything? Would you still go with that '04 rotation for the final two months of this season and into the playoffs (assuming the Cubs make it, of course)?

 

I can't blame you if you do. It's a tough one. But when I factor in the depth that this year's staff has over '04's, it gets a little easier. I know I didn't mention this in my original premise, but I guess we would also have to factor in that Kerry would no longer be the closer. :wink:

[TruffleShuffle]

i still like 2004, even though there were health issues.

 

on another note, kerry wood made 65 starts between 2002 and 2003, plus 4 playoff starts. everybody forgets this because he broke down so frequently after 2003. but in 2003 he was #2 in all of baseball in PAPs. he had a pair of really unconscionable pitch count strings:

 

April 6 to May 15 (starting with his second start of the season - generally not a great idea to abuse the hell out of your pitchers when they're still building arm strength): 111, 122, 104, 115, 116, 141, 121

 

August 27 to September 30: 125, 120, 122, 114, 125, 122, 124, 117

 

i'm not convinced that kerry was not on his way to becoming a more durable pitcher, and dusty broke him in 2003. a lot of people think dusty broke prior, but people kind of assume that wood was going to break just because he did in 1999, but i'm not sure about that.

[BigSlick]

i still like 2004, even though there were health issues.

 

on another note, kerry wood made 65 starts between 2002 and 2003, plus 4 playoff starts. everybody forgets this because he broke down so frequently after 2003. but in 2003 he was #2 in all of baseball in PAPs. he had a pair of really unconscionable pitch count strings:

 

April 6 to May 15 (starting with his second start of the season - generally not a great idea to abuse the hell out of your pitchers when they're still building arm strength): 111, 122, 104, 115, 116, 141, 121

 

August 27 to September 30: 125, 120, 122, 114, 125, 122, 124, 117

 

i'm not convinced that kerry was not on his way to becoming a more durable pitcher, and dusty broke him in 2003. a lot of people think dusty broke prior, but people kind of assume that wood was going to break just because he did in 1999, but i'm not sure about that.

 

Ugh at the bolded. Unbelievable how irresponsible Dusty was. It makes me sick he nearly ruined Kerry's career.

[TheDude]

I don't think you can count the 2004 rotation, if my memory is correct. Wasn't there a running side-bet to see how many games would be played before the 'rotation' actually pitched in order, uninterrupted, once during the season? Wasn't it July before it actually happened? Am I thinking of 2005 instead?

[NCCubFan]

i'm not convinced that kerry was not on his way to becoming a more durable pitcher, and dusty broke him in 2003. a lot of people think dusty broke prior, but people kind of assume that wood was going to break just because he did in 1999, but i'm not sure about that.

Wood was becoming more durable. He didn't miss a single start in either 2002 or 2003. He occasionally left a game because of a blister, but it was always healed by his next scheduled start.

[TruffleShuffle]

i still like 2004, even though there were health issues.

 

on another note, kerry wood made 65 starts between 2002 and 2003, plus 4 playoff starts. everybody forgets this because he broke down so frequently after 2003. but in 2003 he was #2 in all of baseball in PAPs. he had a pair of really unconscionable pitch count strings:

 

April 6 to May 15 (starting with his second start of the season - generally not a great idea to abuse the hell out of your pitchers when they're still building arm strength): 111, 122, 104, 115, 116, 141, 121

 

August 27 to September 30: 125, 120, 122, 114, 125, 122, 124, 117

 

i'm not convinced that kerry was not on his way to becoming a more durable pitcher, and dusty broke him in 2003. a lot of people think dusty broke prior, but people kind of assume that wood was going to break just because he did in 1999, but i'm not sure about that.

 

Ugh at the bolded. Unbelievable how irresponsible Dusty was. It makes me sick he nearly ruined Kerry's career.

 

i think the second one might even be worse, but they're both really bad. people weren't happy about lou letting zambrano go more than 120 pitches on back to back starts, but at least the next start after that he shortened him to something like 83 pitches in 5 innings. kerry wood had 3 strings of 120+ pitches and then followed them up with "light" outings of 114 and 117 pitches.