Which miracle Cardinal is more ridiculous?

[Andy]

For purposes of this poll, I'll limit it to the two Cardinal hitters that currently have 5 more homers than any Cub, even though Kyle Lohse, Braden Looper (batting version), most of their bullpen, Skippy Schumaker, and really any player on their team besides Glaus and Pujols (always good) or Izturis (still pretty bad) are all pretty good candidates.

 

So your choices are:

 

Rick Ankiel - former pitcher who flamed out, used HGH, came back and suddenly is now one of the best hitting CFs in baseball, although horrible in the field

 

Ryan Ludwick - 30-year-old minor leaguer who has been injured his entire life and suddenly isn't anymore now that he's in Cardinal white and red. BTW, for those who thought he was slowing down, his July OPS is over 1.100.

[JimSorgi]

quit complaining, we're in first place

[CubbieBum]

quit complaining, we're in first place

 

this is his forte

[Sammy Sofa]

Which succeeding Cubs player is more absurd, Theriot or Soto or Dempster?

[Derwood]

Can we start a "bitching about the Cardinals" sub-forum?

[NCCubFan]

Can we start a "bitching about the Cardinals" sub-forum?

We actually used to have one. It was called Rivalries. :D

[Derwood]

Can we start a "bitching about the Cardinals" sub-forum?

We actually used to have one. It was called Rivalries. :D

 

and it sucked. coincidence?

[E.J.]

Which succeeding Cubs player is more absurd, Theriot or Soto or Dempster?

 

I'd say Dempster. I'm guessing fans of other teams are pretty miffed at the fact that Demp has been pitching so well. Theriot is right up there though. It's like we have a better version of David Eckstein all the sudden. Who would have expected Theriot to be doing this well? I know I didn't.

[Sammy Sofa]

Which succeeding Cubs player is more absurd, Theriot or Soto or Dempster?

 

I'd say Dempster. I'm guessing fans of other teams are pretty miffed at the fact that Demp has been pitching so well. Theriot is right up there though. It's like we have a better version of David Eckstein all the sudden. Who would have expected Theriot to be doing this well? I know I didn't.

 

I forgot to include Edmonds, too.

 

DAMN THE CARDINALS, WHAT WITH THEM BEING THE ONLY TEAM WITH MAGICAL PLAYERS AND ALL AND SO FORTH.

[Andy]

Which succeeding Cubs player is more absurd, Theriot or Soto or Dempster?

 

I'd say Dempster. I'm guessing fans of other teams are pretty miffed at the fact that Demp has been pitching so well. Theriot is right up there though. It's like we have a better version of David Eckstein all the sudden. Who would have expected Theriot to be doing this well? I know I didn't.

I don't think Theriot's performance relative to expectations is even in the same league as Dempster's. If someone wanted to rank the ridiculousness of Cubs performances this year, it'd probably go Dempster, Edmonds, and a toss-up between Soto and Theriot.

[CubbieBum]

I don't see how Soto and Theriot are anywhere close or why Soto is even in this discussion. He was MVP of AAA last year, and dominanted once called up last year. His expectations were ridiculous coming into the year and while he's been great I would say about half of the people on this board expected .320+ avg 30+ hr's. He's only batting .288 and is one pace for slightly below 30 hr's (not to mention barely 100 rbis and not even 70 runs). Most of those are a result of where he bats in the order but the fact still remains compared to the ungodly expectations he had coming in (most of them way over blown) he has performed right to them or below. He is actually right at what I expected. I thought he would hit about .290-.300 with high 20's hr's. I did expect his OBP to be about 15 points higher though.

 

As for Theriot ... I've probably supported him more than anyone else on here (especially before the season) but I didn't expect him to be hitting .320. I expected him to hit about .290 and be our best option for a SS. I also expected his OBP to be around .365-.370 and not .395.

[sneakypower]

Rick Ankiel - former pitcher who flamed out, used HGH, came back and suddenly is now one of the best hitting CFs in baseball, although horrible in the field

uh oh youre going to be really pissed off when you start noticing hes really good out there in CF

[Derwood]

Rick Ankiel - former pitcher who flamed out, used HGH, came back and suddenly is now one of the best hitting CFs in baseball, although horrible in the field

uh oh youre going to be really pissed off when you start noticing hes really good out there in CF

 

The irony is that he couldn't hit the side of barn when he was pitching but now he throws 350 foot strikes to home plate from CF

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Rick Ankiel - former pitcher who flamed out, used HGH, came back and suddenly is now one of the best hitting CFs in baseball, although horrible in the field

uh oh youre going to be really pissed off when you start noticing hes really good out there in CF

"really" good is probably overstating it. he often takes terrible routes to balls and has to use his athleticism to make up for it. I have no doubts he'll improve as he spends more time out there, but as of right now his arm is the only thing really good about his defense

[RedFlash]

quit complaining, we're in first place

 

this is his forte

 

What's a rookie RB have to do with a conversation about which Cardinals is luckier?

 

 

 

:lol:

[Guest]

I don't see how Soto and Theriot are anywhere close or why Soto is even in this discussion. He was MVP of AAA last year, and dominanted once called up last year. His expectations were ridiculous coming into the year and while he's been great I would say about half of the people on this board expected .320+ avg 30+ hr's. He's only batting .288 and is one pace for slightly below 30 hr's (not to mention barely 100 rbis and not even 70 runs). Most of those are a result of where he bats in the order but the fact still remains compared to the ungodly expectations he had coming in (most of them way over blown) he has performed right to them or below. He is actually right at what I expected. I thought he would hit about .290-.300 with high 20's hr's. I did expect his OBP to be about 15 points higher though.

 

As for Theriot ... I've probably supported him more than anyone else on here (especially before the season) but I didn't expect him to be hitting .320. I expected him to hit about .290 and be our best option for a SS. I also expected his OBP to be around .365-.370 and not .395.

 

Year  Age Tm  Lg  Lvl Aff   G    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS   SB   CS  SB%  SH  SF IBB HBP GDP
+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2001   18 CUB AZL Rk  CHC   41   150   18   39  16   0   1   20   15   33  .260  .327  .387  .714    1   0 100%                     
2002   19 TOT               45   161   25   44  10   2   3   24   13   36  .273  .328  .416  .744    0   2   0%                     
         CUB AZL Rk  CHC   44   156   24   42  10   2   3   24   13   35  .269  .325  .417  .742    0   2   0%                     
         BOI NWL A-  CHC    1     5    1    2   0   0   0    0    0    1  .400  .400  .400  .800    0   0                          
2003   20 DAY FSL A+  CHC   89   297   26   72  12   2   2   38   31   58  .242  .314  .316  .630    0   0                          
2004   21 WTN SOU AA  CHC  104   332   47   90  16   0   9   48   40   71  .271  .349  .401  .750    1   2  33%                     
2005   22 IWA PCL AAA CHC   91   292   30   74  14   0   4   39   48   77  .253  .357  .342  .699    0   1   0%   3   2   0   0  15 
2006   23 IWA PCL AAA CHC  108   342   34   93  21   0   6   38   41   74  .272  .353  .386  .739    0   1   0%   3   2   2   3  10 
2007   24 IWA PCL AAA CHC  110   385   75  136  31   3  26  109   53   94  .353  .424  .652 1.076    0   0        1   9   0   1  12 

 

This should provide you with your answer.

[sneakypower]

Rick Ankiel - former pitcher who flamed out, used HGH, came back and suddenly is now one of the best hitting CFs in baseball, although horrible in the field

uh oh youre going to be really pissed off when you start noticing hes really good out there in CF

"really" good is probably overstating it. he often takes terrible routes to balls and has to use his athleticism to make up for it. I have no doubts he'll improve as he spends more time out there, but as of right now his arm is the only thing really good about his defense

that's a pretty fair assessment

 

personally, i don't have problems with CFs relying on athleticism to make up for bad reads because they're ultimately still going to make most of the plays and given some increased familiarity with the position they'll only improve. unless it's Alex Sanchez of course. his mis-read last night was pretty ugly, but I'd still put him in my outfield right now in large part because of his otherworldly arm. i'd almost wager he could develop into a GG candidate, but with his age he's behind the curve for defense and it's likely when he gets a better grip on the position he'll start losing athleticism somewhat.

[CubbieBum]

I don't see how Soto and Theriot are anywhere close or why Soto is even in this discussion. He was MVP of AAA last year, and dominanted once called up last year. His expectations were ridiculous coming into the year and while he's been great I would say about half of the people on this board expected .320+ avg 30+ hr's. He's only batting .288 and is one pace for slightly below 30 hr's (not to mention barely 100 rbis and not even 70 runs). Most of those are a result of where he bats in the order but the fact still remains compared to the ungodly expectations he had coming in (most of them way over blown) he has performed right to them or below. He is actually right at what I expected. I thought he would hit about .290-.300 with high 20's hr's. I did expect his OBP to be about 15 points higher though.

 

As for Theriot ... I've probably supported him more than anyone else on here (especially before the season) but I didn't expect him to be hitting .320. I expected him to hit about .290 and be our best option for a SS. I also expected his OBP to be around .365-.370 and not .395.

 

Year  Age Tm  Lg  Lvl Aff   G    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS   SB   CS  SB%  SH  SF IBB HBP GDP
+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2001   18 CUB AZL Rk  CHC   41   150   18   39  16   0   1   20   15   33  .260  .327  .387  .714    1   0 100%                     
2002   19 TOT               45   161   25   44  10   2   3   24   13   36  .273  .328  .416  .744    0   2   0%                     
         CUB AZL Rk  CHC   44   156   24   42  10   2   3   24   13   35  .269  .325  .417  .742    0   2   0%                     
         BOI NWL A-  CHC    1     5    1    2   0   0   0    0    0    1  .400  .400  .400  .800    0   0                          
2003   20 DAY FSL A+  CHC   89   297   26   72  12   2   2   38   31   58  .242  .314  .316  .630    0   0                          
2004   21 WTN SOU AA  CHC  104   332   47   90  16   0   9   48   40   71  .271  .349  .401  .750    1   2  33%                     
2005   22 IWA PCL AAA CHC   91   292   30   74  14   0   4   39   48   77  .253  .357  .342  .699    0   1   0%   3   2   0   0  15 
2006   23 IWA PCL AAA CHC  108   342   34   93  21   0   6   38   41   74  .272  .353  .386  .739    0   1   0%   3   2   2   3  10 
2007   24 IWA PCL AAA CHC  110   385   75  136  31   3  26  109   53   94  .353  .424  .652 1.076    0   0        1   9   0   1  12 

 

This should provide you with your answer.

 

I wasn't really in need of an answer and I fail to see why all that matters. From the expectations people had of Soto coming into this season I would say he has been slightly worse than them (still great but like i said people expected at the least a high avg.), which is why he shouldn't be included in this conversation.

[Guest]

I don't see how Soto and Theriot are anywhere close or why Soto is even in this discussion. He was MVP of AAA last year, and dominanted once called up last year. His expectations were ridiculous coming into the year and while he's been great I would say about half of the people on this board expected .320+ avg 30+ hr's. He's only batting .288 and is one pace for slightly below 30 hr's (not to mention barely 100 rbis and not even 70 runs). Most of those are a result of where he bats in the order but the fact still remains compared to the ungodly expectations he had coming in (most of them way over blown) he has performed right to them or below. He is actually right at what I expected. I thought he would hit about .290-.300 with high 20's hr's. I did expect his OBP to be about 15 points higher though.

 

As for Theriot ... I've probably supported him more than anyone else on here (especially before the season) but I didn't expect him to be hitting .320. I expected him to hit about .290 and be our best option for a SS. I also expected his OBP to be around .365-.370 and not .395.

 

Year  Age Tm  Lg  Lvl Aff   G    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS   SB   CS  SB%  SH  SF IBB HBP GDP
+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2001   18 CUB AZL Rk  CHC   41   150   18   39  16   0   1   20   15   33  .260  .327  .387  .714    1   0 100%                     
2002   19 TOT               45   161   25   44  10   2   3   24   13   36  .273  .328  .416  .744    0   2   0%                     
         CUB AZL Rk  CHC   44   156   24   42  10   2   3   24   13   35  .269  .325  .417  .742    0   2   0%                     
         BOI NWL A-  CHC    1     5    1    2   0   0   0    0    0    1  .400  .400  .400  .800    0   0                          
2003   20 DAY FSL A+  CHC   89   297   26   72  12   2   2   38   31   58  .242  .314  .316  .630    0   0                          
2004   21 WTN SOU AA  CHC  104   332   47   90  16   0   9   48   40   71  .271  .349  .401  .750    1   2  33%                     
2005   22 IWA PCL AAA CHC   91   292   30   74  14   0   4   39   48   77  .253  .357  .342  .699    0   1   0%   3   2   0   0  15 
2006   23 IWA PCL AAA CHC  108   342   34   93  21   0   6   38   41   74  .272  .353  .386  .739    0   1   0%   3   2   2   3  10 
2007   24 IWA PCL AAA CHC  110   385   75  136  31   3  26  109   53   94  .353  .424  .652 1.076    0   0        1   9   0   1  12 

 

This should provide you with your answer.

 

I wasn't really in need of an answer and I fail to see why all that matters. From the expectations people had of Soto coming into this season I would say he has been slightly worse than them (still great but like i said people expected at the least a high avg.), which is why he shouldn't be included in this conversation.

 

You're missing the point. Look at Soto's minor league stats before 2007. Where do those stats do you see a guy, who when he gets to the majors, will have 20-25 HR power and a .874 OPS? It's not necessarily what Soto's done this year, but what he had done in his 6 minor league seasons before 2007. I don't know where he was ranked exactly but I'm sure somebody has some old prospect handbook, but I'm guessing that Soto wasn't ranked too highly before the 2007 season by anybody who evaluates prospects.

[CubbieBum]

I don't see how Soto and Theriot are anywhere close or why Soto is even in this discussion. He was MVP of AAA last year, and dominanted once called up last year. His expectations were ridiculous coming into the year and while he's been great I would say about half of the people on this board expected .320+ avg 30+ hr's. He's only batting .288 and is one pace for slightly below 30 hr's (not to mention barely 100 rbis and not even 70 runs). Most of those are a result of where he bats in the order but the fact still remains compared to the ungodly expectations he had coming in (most of them way over blown) he has performed right to them or below. He is actually right at what I expected. I thought he would hit about .290-.300 with high 20's hr's. I did expect his OBP to be about 15 points higher though.

 

As for Theriot ... I've probably supported him more than anyone else on here (especially before the season) but I didn't expect him to be hitting .320. I expected him to hit about .290 and be our best option for a SS. I also expected his OBP to be around .365-.370 and not .395.

 

Year  Age Tm  Lg  Lvl Aff   G    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS   SB   CS  SB%  SH  SF IBB HBP GDP
+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2001   18 CUB AZL Rk  CHC   41   150   18   39  16   0   1   20   15   33  .260  .327  .387  .714    1   0 100%                     
2002   19 TOT               45   161   25   44  10   2   3   24   13   36  .273  .328  .416  .744    0   2   0%                     
         CUB AZL Rk  CHC   44   156   24   42  10   2   3   24   13   35  .269  .325  .417  .742    0   2   0%                     
         BOI NWL A-  CHC    1     5    1    2   0   0   0    0    0    1  .400  .400  .400  .800    0   0                          
2003   20 DAY FSL A+  CHC   89   297   26   72  12   2   2   38   31   58  .242  .314  .316  .630    0   0                          
2004   21 WTN SOU AA  CHC  104   332   47   90  16   0   9   48   40   71  .271  .349  .401  .750    1   2  33%                     
2005   22 IWA PCL AAA CHC   91   292   30   74  14   0   4   39   48   77  .253  .357  .342  .699    0   1   0%   3   2   0   0  15 
2006   23 IWA PCL AAA CHC  108   342   34   93  21   0   6   38   41   74  .272  .353  .386  .739    0   1   0%   3   2   2   3  10 
2007   24 IWA PCL AAA CHC  110   385   75  136  31   3  26  109   53   94  .353  .424  .652 1.076    0   0        1   9   0   1  12 

 

This should provide you with your answer.

 

I wasn't really in need of an answer and I fail to see why all that matters. From the expectations people had of Soto coming into this season I would say he has been slightly worse than them (still great but like i said people expected at the least a high avg.), which is why he shouldn't be included in this conversation.

 

You're missing the point. Look at Soto's minor league stats before 2007. Where do those stats do you see a guy, who when he gets to the majors, will have 20-25 HR power and a .874 OPS? It's not necessarily what Soto's done this year, but what he had done in his 6 minor league seasons before 2007. I don't know where he was ranked exactly but I'm sure somebody has some old prospect handbook, but I'm guessing that Soto wasn't ranked too highly before the 2007 season by anybody who evaluates prospects.

 

I know that's your point but someone who was an MVP of AAA league prior to his first callup should never ever be lumped into the same catagory as the guys who have come out of no where to be very good dependable players at the major league level playing the same or better than they did in AAA. Soto doesn't belong in this conversation.

[Guest]

You get my point and yet it's not sinking in. Wonderful.

[CubbieBum]

You get my point and yet it's not sinking in. Wonderful.

 

That goes both ways. I really don't see how it is hard to understand that someone who produced in the minors, and produced in a late season call up and is now doing well is different than a guy who came out of nowhere to all of a sudden be very good or came back from the dead or has had his most injury free season ever in his life.

 

Yes its true two years ago many people didn't expect a whole lot of Soto but that is way different from the others we have talked about in this thread. They are related but different. Think Eli/Peyton and then Cooper.

[Guest]

I was about to type up a response but then I realized there was no point.

[CubColtPacer]

If we're going to throw out Soto, we have to throw out Ankiel as well. Personally, I don't think either of them should be thrown out. They both developed quite a bit in a short amount of time, and became much better players than they were expected to be. To be honest IMO, Soto was much more of a surprise than Ankiel overall. Ankiel always had his prodigious power to fall back on, and was just a manner of continuing to slide up that OBP for him to become an impact player. His numbers have continued to slowly slide up as he continues to develop. The surprise came that he was somehow able to move his OBP up as he transitioned to the MLB level.

Soto's pluses were defense and walks. His average and power were both low until he suddenly burst out. He really hadn't shown that much development that would even lead you to believe that a sudden breakout was possible. It was a wonderful unexpected surprise.

 

Now, for the Cardinals team, I would say there are more surprises overall. Part of that is simply due to how they operate though. They love to do these little risk pick ups, give them PT, and see what happens. The Cubs have started to do that more, and when you do that enough you're going to have some diamonds come out (for the Cubs, that's the Johnson/Edmonds platoon). The Cardinals have had some hits and misses, but when they hit they stick around for quite a while, so it seems like they hit more than they do.

 

For example, turning it around, do you think the average Cardinals fan is going to think..look at Pagan and Monroe. The Cubs struggle with getting guys off the trash heap. Probably not IMO. They're not going to remember those guys at all, because they don't follow this team everyday. They'll remember guys like Edmonds/Johnson though who help win a game over their team, which gives them the illusion that the Cubs organization is better at getting lucky with talent than what is actually there. The same is true the other way.

[CubbieBum]

If we're going to throw out Soto, we have to throw out Ankiel as well. Personally, I don't think either of them should be thrown out. They both developed quite a bit in a short amount of time, and became much better players than they were expected to be. To be honest IMO, Soto was much more of a surprise than Ankiel overall. Ankiel always had his prodigious power to fall back on, and was just a manner of continuing to slide up that OBP for him to become an impact player. His numbers have continued to slowly slide up as he continues to develop. The surprise came that he was somehow able to move his OBP up as he transitioned to the MLB level.

Soto's pluses were defense and walks. His average and power were both low until he suddenly burst out. He really hadn't shown that much development that would even lead you to believe that a sudden breakout was possible. It was a wonderful unexpected surprise.

 

Now, for the Cardinals team, I would say there are more surprises overall. Part of that is simply due to how they operate though. They love to do these little risk pick ups, give them PT, and see what happens. The Cubs have started to do that more, and when you do that enough you're going to have some diamonds come out (for the Cubs, that's the Johnson/Edmonds platoon). The Cardinals have had some hits and misses, but when they hit they stick around for quite a while, so it seems like they hit more than they do.

 

For example, turning it around, do you think the average Cardinals fan is going to think..look at Pagan and Monroe. The Cubs struggle with getting guys off the trash heap. Probably not IMO. They're not going to remember those guys at all, because they don't follow this team everyday. They'll remember guys like Edmonds/Johnson though who help win a game over their team, which gives them the illusion that the Cubs organization is better at getting lucky with talent than what is actually there. The same is true the other way.

 

Ankiel is included because he was a dominant pitcher for one season (was it even that) and then bombed as bad as anyone has seen only to resurface a few years later has a guy who might hit 40 home runs. Top my knowledge no one has ever done what he has done and the ridiculousness of it is very very high.