EPatt for CF

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Now we're getting into semantics. Murton provides below average offense and below average defense at one position, the easiest to fill on the diamond. Whether or not that makes him "AAAA" or not depends on your definition, but he's fungible, and probably doesn't have a large role on a good team.

 

All evidence to the contrary.

 

For a left fielder? Absolutely.

 

He was 24.

 

And at 25 he put up a sub-.800 OPS, with a better than typical ratio of at bats against LHP that should've boosted his numbers. Now he's 26 and he's not hitting even at Iowa. He's backslid, and he doesn't have age and salary(as much as before) to help his value going forward.

[Tyrant]

Now we're getting into semantics. Murton provides below average offense and below average defense at one position, the easiest to fill on the diamond. Whether or not that makes him "AAAA" or not depends on your definition, but he's fungible, and probably doesn't have a large role on a good team.

 

All evidence to the contrary.

 

For a left fielder? Absolutely.

 

He was 24.

 

And at 25 he put up a sub-.800 OPS, with a better than typical ratio of at bats against LHP that should've boosted his numbers. Now he's 26 and he's not hitting even at Iowa. He's backslid, and he doesn't have age and salary(as much as before) to help his value going forward.

 

Bingo.

[Tracer Bullet]

Now we're getting into semantics. Murton provides below average offense and below average defense at one position, the easiest to fill on the diamond. Whether or not that makes him "AAAA" or not depends on your definition, but he's fungible, and probably doesn't have a large role on a good team.

 

All evidence to the contrary.

 

For a left fielder? Absolutely.

 

He was 24.

 

And at 25 he put up a sub-.800 OPS, with a better than typical ratio of at bats against LHP that should've boosted his numbers. Now he's 26 and he's not hitting even at Iowa. He's backslid, and he doesn't have age and salary(as much as before) to help his value going forward.

 

 

First - I'm not sure what your point is about LHP - he killed LHP last year, to the tune of an .892 OPS.

 

Second - as a LF in '07, his OPS was .876. Also, in the 2nd half, when his playing time was less sporadic, he was killing the ball (OPS of .920 and .979 in Aug/Sept).

 

I'm not sure what his performance at AAA this year means. It's a pretty drastic drop from his performance at AAA and ML in the last 3 seasons, so I'm inclined to place at least some of the blame on the deflating nature of being demoted yet again when you've done a lot to prove you belong in the majors. Murton clearly knows how well he's done the last couple years - he mentioned his 2nd half stats in that article profiling Murton, Pie, Hill, and Marshall. Being demoted probably shook his confidence - being passed over for promotion twice when Soriano hit the DL probably only made it worse.

 

As to your last point - I agree. He should have been traded or handed a starting gig in either '07 or '08. Since JH replaced him with FAs early in both off-seasons, trading him would have made sense. By holding on to him, there's almost no chance his value goes up and if he wasted away on the bench or struggled in AAA, which he did, you've killed his value.

[rawaction]

I'd love it if Patterson could handle CF everyday. However, I don't like him as an everyday player in the same lineup as Theriot. They will likely be similar players in the long run. Neither has great power and their value comes from the ability to get on base. Assuming Soriano absolutely has to hit leadoff, I'd keep Fukudome 2nd. Lee, Ramirez and Soto follow. But then you have Derosa, Patterson and Theriot at the bottom. Even with Derosa and Soto's great numbers this year, that doesn't make for a very productive bottom 1/2 of the lineup. Pie at least has the potential to provide some power and is guaranteed great defense in CF.

 

If you get a more run producing SS and/or move Soriano to the middle of the order, then Patterson has a shot to fit in nicely. With the team as constructed, I don't see him as a good fit. He would be a great asset to the bench though. Can play 2B and all 3 OF spots. And not be a guy that's gonna hurt you if he has to start for an extended period of time.

[carolinacubbie]

I think e-patt could be a decent, cheap, centerfield option but as many have noted he probably wont be around come trade time. wasnt he the shortstop a Georgia Tech? Too bad he couldnt stick there.

 

As far as the Matt Murton love, yeah hes been ok for us but his poor defense and alarming decrease in power make him nothing more than a bench guy. I gotta believe with his build that his swing can be tweaked/changed to generate more power. He puts the ball on the ground more than most which means hes turning over on the ball way too often. Until he figures it out hes no more than a AAAA guy.

 

 

I can't stand the AAAA thingy. Couldn't we just say MLB bench player instead of dumb AAAA.

[imb]

we should form epatt and murton into one player. He'd be a black guy with red hair and we could call him Eric Murtonson and he would be fiery if you know what i mean (im talking about downstairs)

[Geech]

(im talking about downstairs)

 

...

 

I still don't know what you mean.

[Amazing_Grace]

i like how patterson went from worthless to a potential starter in one weekend series.

 

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

Of course, with an unlimited budget and complete managerial control, I'd move Fukudome to CF over the offseason (or right now) and trade for/sign someone like Adam Dunn or Milton Bradley. I was suggesting that EPatt might be a decent and cheap option if needed, not that he's going to explode into a superstar player.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

I'm not sure I'd make that trade off, and Pie being an outstanding defender while Patterson is below average makes it easier. I'd probably take Pie with a .300/.400 OBP/SLG over Patterson hitting .350/.400.

[Amazing_Grace]

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

I'm not sure I'd make that trade off, and Pie being an outstanding defender while Patterson is below average makes it easier. I'd probably take Pie with a .300/.400 OBP/SLG over Patterson hitting .350/.400.

 

It's kind of a judgement call. I assume you meant to write .350/.400 Patterson and .300/.500 Pie. I'm never sure how to value defense. It's sort of an intangible, and we really don't know how bad/good Patterson would be as a CF. We just know he's not great at 2b. Of Patterson and Pie, I wonder who has more value in the eyes of other teams? I'd probably trade whichever one would get me the frontline starter we need in any case.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

I'm not sure I'd make that trade off, and Pie being an outstanding defender while Patterson is below average makes it easier. I'd probably take Pie with a .300/.400 OBP/SLG over Patterson hitting .350/.400.

 

It's kind of a judgement call. I assume you meant to write .350/.400 Patterson and .300/.500 Pie. I'm never sure how to value defense. It's sort of an intangible, and we really don't know how bad/good Patterson would be as a CF. We just know he's not great at 2b. Of Patterson and Pie, I wonder who has more value in the eyes of other teams? I'd probably trade whichever one would get me the frontline starter we need in any case.

 

No, I meant a .400 SLG for Pie. He's really as good as it gets defensively, enough to make up for that OBP discrepancy. That said, if trading Patterson gets Randy Wolf, and Pie gets Burnett/Harden/Sabathia, it's a much different decision.

[9YRPLAN]

does epatt really need to be "converted"? he's played a lot of CF in the minors.

 

he has a lot more power and power potential than theriot, so i dont think thats a fair comparison.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

lol /thread.

[CubinNY]

I still like EPat for 2nd base.

 

DeRosa ain't cutting the mustard.

       
  Last 7 days      .111  .238  .111  .349  
  Last 14 days    .195  .283  .195  .478 
  Last 28 days    .221  .299  .390  .688 

[Transmogrified Tiger]

does epatt really need to be "converted"? he's played a lot of CF in the minors.

 

he has a lot more power and power potential than theriot, so i dont think thats a fair comparison.

 

Patterson has 25 career games in CF. None before last year, and only 2 thus far in 2008.

[Amazing_Grace]

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

I'm not sure I'd make that trade off, and Pie being an outstanding defender while Patterson is below average makes it easier. I'd probably take Pie with a .300/.400 OBP/SLG over Patterson hitting .350/.400.

 

It's kind of a judgement call. I assume you meant to write .350/.400 Patterson and .300/.500 Pie. I'm never sure how to value defense. It's sort of an intangible, and we really don't know how bad/good Patterson would be as a CF. We just know he's not great at 2b. Of Patterson and Pie, I wonder who has more value in the eyes of other teams? I'd probably trade whichever one would get me the frontline starter we need in any case.

 

No, I meant a .400 SLG for Pie. He's really as good as it gets defensively, enough to make up for that OBP discrepancy. That said, if trading Patterson gets Randy Wolf, and Pie gets Burnett/Harden/Sabathia, it's a much different decision.

 

What stats are good measures of defense and how do you compare them with offensive stats, or is it simply a matter of judgement? I ask because I'm curious. You guys know a lot more about stats than I do so maybe I'm missing something.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

I'm not sure I'd make that trade off, and Pie being an outstanding defender while Patterson is below average makes it easier. I'd probably take Pie with a .300/.400 OBP/SLG over Patterson hitting .350/.400.

 

It's kind of a judgement call. I assume you meant to write .350/.400 Patterson and .300/.500 Pie. I'm never sure how to value defense. It's sort of an intangible, and we really don't know how bad/good Patterson would be as a CF. We just know he's not great at 2b. Of Patterson and Pie, I wonder who has more value in the eyes of other teams? I'd probably trade whichever one would get me the frontline starter we need in any case.

 

There's a lot of different metrics out there. UZR, RZR(which you can find at hardball times), PMR, and more that are PBP based. Pie routinely comes out as saving a ton of runs defensively, especially for his brief time in the majors.

 

No, I meant a .400 SLG for Pie. He's really as good as it gets defensively, enough to make up for that OBP discrepancy. That said, if trading Patterson gets Randy Wolf, and Pie gets Burnett/Harden/Sabathia, it's a much different decision.

 

What stats are good measures of defense and how do you compare them with offensive stats, or is it simply a matter of judgement? I ask because I'm curious. You guys know a lot more about stats than I do so maybe I'm missing something.

[CubbieBum]

(im talking about downstairs)

 

...

 

I still don't know what you mean.

 

red hair up top means there's a fire down below

[Tracer Bullet]

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

I'm not sure I'd make that trade off, and Pie being an outstanding defender while Patterson is below average makes it easier. I'd probably take Pie with a .300/.400 OBP/SLG over Patterson hitting .350/.400.

 

b/c Pie projects to be better or you mean over the long term you'd take Pie at those #s over Patterson at those #s? I'm having a hard time seeing Pie's defense make up for an extra 50 points of OBP (with equal SLG) esp in Wrigley.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

I'm not sure I'd make that trade off, and Pie being an outstanding defender while Patterson is below average makes it easier. I'd probably take Pie with a .300/.400 OBP/SLG over Patterson hitting .350/.400.

 

b/c Pie projects to be better or you mean over the long term you'd take Pie at those #s over Patterson at those #s? I'm having a hard time seeing Pie's defense make up for an extra 50 points of OBP (with equal SLG) esp in Wrigley.

 

A little of both. I don't think Pie's defensive advantage over Patterson can be overstated, it's probably 20 runs over the course of the season(yes I realize the irony of that compound sentence). But yes, the fact that Pie is younger and hit better at high levels than Patterson also gives hope that he'll be at least equal offensively at the MLB level.

[Tracer Bullet]

I've always viewed EPatt as a potential starter at the MLB level. He's not going to be a superstar. But a .750 to .780 OPS with an OBP around .350 is a good level for a starter at a defensive position for most baseball teams. I see EPatt as possibly a DeJesus/Lofton type player. I think people forget that the most important skill a baseball player can have is the ability to not make outs. I'd rather have EPatt with a .340 OBP and .400 SLG than Pie with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG. That's just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with it.

 

I'm not sure I'd make that trade off, and Pie being an outstanding defender while Patterson is below average makes it easier. I'd probably take Pie with a .300/.400 OBP/SLG over Patterson hitting .350/.400.

 

b/c Pie projects to be better or you mean over the long term you'd take Pie at those #s over Patterson at those #s? I'm having a hard time seeing Pie's defense make up for an extra 50 points of OBP (with equal SLG) esp in Wrigley.

 

A little of both. I don't think Pie's defensive advantage over Patterson can be overstated, it's probably 20 runs over the course of the season(yes I realize the irony of that compound sentence). But yes, the fact that Pie is younger and hit better at high levels than Patterson also gives hope that he'll be at least equal offensively at the MLB level.

 

Ok. I understand the 2nd part, as I think Pie's offensive production will eventually eclipse EPatt's. But I don't think his defense makes up for 50 points in OBP, all other things being equal. EPatt's pretty bad out there now, but I think he can improve - not to the point of equaling Pie, but to close the gap a fair amount.