Baseball History Thread

[Mephistopheles]

Cro Magnon is correct. The way we apply park factors when looking at VALUE or PRODUCTION isn't only looking at their road numbers and saying this is how good they are. We take their home numbers, and take an average players numbers, scale them to that park and look at the difference. There certainly are players who fit certain parks better than others as well as players who fit their parks really bad. So yes, Coors helps Holliday, but he still takes advantage of it a heck of a lot more than anyone else.

[ELCABALLO45]

I would of voted for Prince :)

 

But yeah, Holliday probably should of won the award. I know he plays at Coors but he is still putting up the stats.

 

Citizens Bank Park is basically becoming the new Coors.

[OleMissCub]

I think David Wright would have been a better candidate than Rollins as well last year.

 

 

I'm still trying to figure this one out:

 

1972 NL MVP:

 

Pete Rose: .338/.401/.437, 138 OPS+, 5 HR, 36 Doubles, 8 Triples, 64 RBI, 115 Runs, 10 SB

BEATS

Willie Stargell:.299/.392/.646, 186 OPS+, 44 HR, 43 Doubles, 3 Triples, 119 RBI, 106 Runs

 

Although, maybe one of the worst ever was 1942 AL MVP:

 

Joe Gordon: .322/.409/.491, 155 OPS+, 18 HR, 29 doubles, 4 triples, 103 RBI, 88 Runs, 79 BB

BEATS

Ted Williams: .356/.499/.648, 217 OPS+, 36 HR, 34 doubles, 5 triples, 137 RBI, 141 Runs, 145 BB

[Rob]

I think David Wright would have been a better candidate than Rollins as well last year.

 

 

I'm still trying to figure this one out:

 

1972 NL MVP:

 

Pete Rose: .338/.401/.437, 138 OPS+, 5 HR, 36 Doubles, 8 Triples, 64 RBI, 115 Runs, 10 SB

BEATS

Willie Stargell:.299/.392/.646, 186 OPS+, 44 HR, 43 Doubles, 3 Triples, 119 RBI, 106 Runs

 

Although, maybe one of the worst ever was 1942 AL MVP:

 

Joe Gordon: .322/.409/.491, 155 OPS+, 18 HR, 29 doubles, 4 triples, 103 RBI, 88 Runs, 79 BB

BEATS

Ted Williams: .356/.499/.648, 217 OPS+, 36 HR, 34 doubles, 5 triples, 137 RBI, 141 Runs, 145 BB

 

1962 NL MVP:

 

Maury Wills: .299/.347/.373, 100 OPS+, 6 HR, 13 doubles, 10 triples, 48 RBI, 130 Runs, 51 BB

BEATS

Willie Mays: .304/.384/.615, 165 OPS+, 49 HR, 36 doubles, 5 triples, 141 RBI, 130 Runs, 78 BB

Frank Robinson: .342/.421/.624, 173 OPS+, 39 HR, 51 doubles, 2 triples, 136 RBI, 134 Runs, 76 BB

Hank Aaron: .323/.390/.618, 170 OPS+, 45 HR, 28 doubles, 6 triples, 128 RBI, 127 Runs, 66 BB

 

How does that happen? Let's look at the SB totals.

 

Wills: 104 SB

Mays: 18 SB

Robinson: 18 SB

Aaron: 15 SB

 

Lame.

[Guest]

Coors helps some, but a player should be penalized for taking advantage of his home park far better than the rest of his team does?

 

that's just lazy and wrong

 

and it's better anyways if sportswriters pay little attention to FRAR

 

Yes he should be penalized. Not that much - and my comparison with the other OF's and players in the NL was quick and dirty and certainly not perfect - but it has to be considered. Just like it has to be considered when a guy plays in a pitchers park.

 

Like I said, I'm not saying that Holliday shouldn't have won the award, just that he wasn't a surefire winner who got completely shafted. What makes Holliday so much more valuable than Ryan Howard, Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder and David Wright in 2007?

[OleMissCub]

 

Wills: 104 SB

Mays: 18 SB

Robinson: 18 SB

Aaron: 15 SB

 

Lame.

 

 

but...but...he still 100 bases!!!1!1!!

[OleMissCub]

1957: Good quality pic of some good players with some crazy names: Moose, Minnie, Nellie, & Mickey:

 

 

 

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51985&stc=1&d=1221835841

 

[OleMissCub]

Robert Moses Grove aka Lefty: 1931 American League MVP

 

- exactly 300 career wins

- record 9 ERA titles

- eight 20+ win seasons

 

Philadelphia Athletics: 1925-1933

Boston Red Sox: 1934-1941

 

One thing to remember with Lefty Grove is that he didn't make it to the bigs until he was 25 years old. He was so successful with Baltimore (still a minor league team at that time) that the owner of the Orioles wouldn't sell him until he got the largest possible price. So Grove spent five years in the minors, putting up records of 12-2, 25-10, 18-8, 27-10, and 27-6, the whole time leading the International League in strikeouts every season. So theoretically, if his career had gone on a normal path, he might have had around 400 wins.

 

 

From Bill James' Baseball Abstract, which has Grove as the #2 Pitcher of All Time:

 

Doc Cramer, describing Grove: "Grove was all man Ornery. Wanted to win. Didn't care how he won. He just stood out there and threw the ball."

 

My favorite Lefty Grove story...Grove was a loudmouth and a hot-head. His manager, Connie Mack, was a quiet, soft-spoken man who didn't drink, smoke, swear, or raise his voice. In 1932, after a tough defeat, Grove was in the clubhouse raising Cain, throwing chairs, screaming at people and menacing locker. Finally Connie Mack came out to try and quiet him down. Grove was having none of it. "The hell with you, Mack," he screamed. "To hell with you!"

 

To which Mack responded quiet, as Grove stormed off to the shower, "And to hell with you too, Robert."

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty4-1.gif

 

photos inside spoiler:

 

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty8.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty13.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty5.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty21.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty9.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty1.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty10.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty14.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty4.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty6.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty2-1.jpg

 

with Mr. Mack:

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty22.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty7.jpg

 

Probably the best battery of all-time; Lefty with Mickey Cochrane:

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty18.jpg

 

With Dizzy Dean:

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty17.jpg

 

With his great NL rival Carl Hubbell:

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty3.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty11.jpg

 

Cochrane, Gehrig, Grove, & Simmons:

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty15.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/lefty19.jpg

 

[OleMissCub]

Awesomeness...this might be the coolest shot in this entire thread...what a beautiful picture. Panoramic shot of Wrigley Field, July 27, 1929 (looks like stumpy Hack in center):

 

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38681&d=1207019120

 

[OleMissCub]

These are tremendous as well:

 

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43151&d=1211645310

 

 

From July 2nd, 1908, Westside Park, Chicago.

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38729&d=1207057307

 

 

Cubs in Spring Training, 1923. Note: Rookie Gabby Hartnett 6th from right, top row. Also, Grover Cleveland Alexander on far right, top row.

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38930&d=1207331625

 

 

1903 Chicago Cubs:

 

Top Row: L-R: Carl Lundgren (P), Bob Wicker (P), Frank Chance (1B), Jack McCarthy (LF), Jack Taylor (P), Davey Jones (OF), Johnny Kling ©, Peaches Graham (P), Jake Weimer (P).

 

Bottom Row: L-R: Dick Harley (LF), Johnny Evers (2B), ?, Frank Selee (Mgr.), Otto Williams (SS), Jock Menefee (P), Tommy Raub ©.

 

Seated on ground: L-R: Jimmy Slagle (LF), Doc Casey (3B), Joe Tinker (SS).

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38959&d=1207365412

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45549&d=1214703459

 

 

Gabby has his eyes closed, hah:

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41542&d=1209937994

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41760&d=1210280760

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41761&d=1210280883

 

[OleMissCub]

Billy Leo Williams aka Sweet Swingin' Billy: 1961 NL Rookie of the Year

 

162 game avg: .290/.361/.492, 133 OPS+, 28 HR, 28 Doubles, 6 Triples, 96 RBI, 92 Runs

 

Best Season, 1972: .333/.398/.606, 172 OPS+, 37 HR, 34 Doubles, 6 Triples, 122 RBI, 95 Runs

 

Chicago Cubs: 1959-1974

Oakland Athletics: 1975-1976

 

photos inside spoiler:

 

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy7.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy6.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy5.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy4.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy3.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy1.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy11.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy10.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy22.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy21.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy8.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy2.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy20.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billy23.jpg

 

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/billyhit.gif

[OleMissCub]

10 guys who are eligible that I think should be in the HOF:

 

In no order (except for the first!)

 

Ron Santo

Bert Blyleven

Dick Allen

Tim Raines

Joe Torre

Andre Dawson

Alan Trammell

Ted Simmons

Stan Hack

Luis Tiant

[OleMissCub]

Picture of Guy Bush, pitcher from the Cubs from 1923-1934 winning 152 games with them in that time. I posted the pic because I'd never seen such a good shot of that logo on his shoulder. That's pretty cool.

 

 

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53082&stc=1&d=1223508606

[SouthSideRyan]

I think David Wright would have been a better candidate than Rollins as well last year.

 

 

I'm still trying to figure this one out:

 

1972 NL MVP:

 

Pete Rose: .338/.401/.437, 138 OPS+, 5 HR, 36 Doubles, 8 Triples, 64 RBI, 115 Runs, 10 SB

BEATS

Willie Stargell:.299/.392/.646, 186 OPS+, 44 HR, 43 Doubles, 3 Triples, 119 RBI, 106 Runs

 

Although, maybe one of the worst ever was 1942 AL MVP:

 

Joe Gordon: .322/.409/.491, 155 OPS+, 18 HR, 29 doubles, 4 triples, 103 RBI, 88 Runs, 79 BB

BEATS

Ted Williams: .356/.499/.648, 217 OPS+, 36 HR, 34 doubles, 5 triples, 137 RBI, 141 Runs, 145 BB

 

Was Zoilo Versalles a ridiculous fielder or something?(1965) And how much did the writers hate Mickey Mantle('59)

 

And anyone who cna discuss past MVP votes, damn sure better be making their votes in my awards thread.

[OleMissCub]

Was Zoilo Versalles a ridiculous fielder or something?(1965) And how much did the writers hate Mickey Mantle('59)

 

Zoilo isn't too hard to figure out. He had a pretty good year in a season of very low offense and his team won the AL pennant that year. The interesting thing about his near unanimous selection is that the man below him was a teammate who arguably had a better season.

 

Zoilo Versalles (MIN), 1965: .273/.319/.462, 115 OPS+, 19 HR, 45 doubles, 12 triples, 77 RBI, 126 Runs, 27 SB

Tony Oliva (MIN), 1965: .321/.378/.491, 141 OPS+, 16 HR, 40 doubles, 5 triples, 98 RBI, 107 Runs, 19 SB

 

As far as his fielding is concerned, I don't know much about that. Although he did make 39 errors that year at shortstop... :?

[OleMissCub]

I put this video together using the audio of the 1939 induction speeches for the Hall of Fame.

 

In it, you can hear the voices of Walter Johnson, Tris Speaker, Napoleon Lajoie, George Sisler, Cy Young, Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, Honus Wagner, & Babe Ruth making brief statements. Pretty damn cool to hear their voices I think.

 

http://media.putfile.com/1939-Baseball-Hall-of-Fame-induction-speeches

 

Standing, l to r: Wagner, Alexander, Speaker, Lajoie, Sisler, & Johnson

Seated, l to r: Collins, Ruth, Mack, & Young (Cobb missed the opening ceremony because he didn't want to be near Judge Landis, whom he deeply hated)

 

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25220&d=1181776442

[OleMissCub]

Those were the days....Ryno in his prime for 7 million a year....

 

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1992/0316_large.jpg

[OleMissCub]

Back in the old days, photo postcards of baseball players and teams were a big deal. These are mostly postcards that came out for the 1907 World Series between the Cubs and Tigers, some from later times:

 

 

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/Burke_Tigers_07.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/1907_Cubs_Chanpions_web.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/Grignon_Hofman_web.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/HM_Taylor_Chance2.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/PC796_Chance.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/PC796_Evers_Schaefer_web.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/Shield_Pfeister.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/Tinker_Case.jpg

 

[laurens]

Back in the old days, photo postcards of baseball players and teams were a big deal. These are mostly postcards that came out for the 1907 World Series between the Cubs and Tigers, some from later times:

 

 

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/Burke_Tigers_07.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/1907_Cubs_Chanpions_web.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/Grignon_Hofman_web.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/HM_Taylor_Chance2.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/PC796_Chance.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/PC796_Evers_Schaefer_web.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/Shield_Pfeister.jpg

 

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/Tinker_Case.jpg

 

 

Hahaha, that last one is amazing :lol:

[OleMissCub]

Hahaha, that last one is amazing :lol:

 

Interesting that the wheel is on the passenger side.

[laurens]

Hahaha, that last one is amazing :lol:

 

Interesting that the wheel is on the passenger side.

 

That's because in some parts of the US they kept driving on the left 'till the early 1900s

[Clem Fandango]

Was thew 1941 MVP award voting a case of Dimaggio being on the better team than Williams?

 

It must suck something fierce when you put up an OPS+ of 235 and hit over .400 and lose to someone else. Not saying Dimagigo's season wasn't good, but Williams dwarfed him in comparison and still came in second. And it's not like Boston sucked, they came in 2nd place that year.

[erik316wttn]

Was thew 1941 MVP award voting a case of Dimaggio being on the better team than Williams?

 

It must suck something fierce when you put up an OPS+ of 235 and hit over .400 and lose to someone else. Not saying Dimagigo's season wasn't good, but Williams dwarfed him in comparison and still came in second. And it's not like Boston sucked, they came in 2nd place that year.

 

It was more a case of the writers hated Ted Williams.

[OleMissCub]

Was thew 1941 MVP award voting a case of Dimaggio being on the better team than Williams?

 

It must suck something fierce when you put up an OPS+ of 235 and hit over .400 and lose to someone else. Not saying Dimagigo's season wasn't good, but Williams dwarfed him in comparison and still came in second. And it's not like Boston sucked, they came in 2nd place that year.

 

It was more a case of the writers hated Ted Williams.

 

 

Indeed. Fans today don't really understand that Williams was basically the Barry Bonds of his day. Nearly universally hated.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Indeed. Fans today don't really understand that Williams was basically the Barry Bonds of his day. Nearly universally hated.

 

I think A-Rod's a better comparison.