A few things noticed about Alfonso Soriano....

[Sammy Sofa]

 

I would never prefer helping a player over helping a team. If the Cubs win with Reed, they should go with Reed. At least until a change is needed.

 

This is a meaningless statement. It's like saying, "if the Cubs are winning with yellow shoelaces, they should keep wearing yellow shoelaces." Just because they've won some games WITH Johnson in the lineup in no way means they've won BECAUSE of him, and they haven't, and that argument shouldn't be used to yet again bench Pie when he should be playing as much as possible.

 

What the hell are you talking about? If a guy is producing (Johnson), why should a guy who is not producing (Pie) play? I play the hot hand. Pie will get his AB's and on the job training.

 

Becase Johnson is a journeyman player who isn't ideally the CFer of this team for the forseeable future. Johnson contributes nothing in that #2 hole that at least a couple other people in the lineup can't do, and he should get no extra playing time unless Pie is hurt, which is supposedly the case over the last few days (and that one starting lefty was faced). It's ridiculous that the young player who needs playing time as much as possible to see if he can develop should be sat for a decent bench player. Reed Johnson isn't going to be enough of a difference maker that he should take away any extra playing time from Pie. For now, fine, Pie took the ball off of his hand...but I won't be surprised at all if more excuses crop up down the line to give Pie's time to Johnson.

 

You can't wait for some possibly mythical time when the Cubs are "comfortable" to let Pie play...otherwise you're just prolonging whether or not he can make the necessary adjustments and stunting his development even further. For better or for worse, this is the team that's out there that Pie needs to be let start with as much as possible. He has zero left to prove in the minors or on the bench, and he needs to be given the time ASAP to see if he can make the leap to being a fulltime MLB player. There's zero argument that justifies giving prolonged starts to an ultimately average ballplayer like Johnson unless someone is hurt. None.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

I would never prefer helping a player over helping a team. If the Cubs win with Reed, they should go with Reed. At least until a change is needed.

 

This is a meaningless statement. It's like saying, "if the Cubs are winning with yellow shoelaces, they should keep wearing yellow shoelaces." Just because they've won some games WITH Johnson in the lineup in no way means they've won BECAUSE of him, and they haven't, and that argument shouldn't be used to yet again bench Pie when he should be playing as much as possible.

 

What the hell are you talking about? If a guy is producing (Johnson), why should a guy who is not producing (Pie) play? I play the hot hand. Pie will get his AB's and on the job training.

 

Let's put Johnson's production into perspective though. He had a nice game against a lefty, and should play against most of them if that continues. But his previuos game was an ugly 0-fer against a righty, and there's no good reason why he should play against them. I find it hard to call him the hot hand. He's 31 years old and has a very limited track record. He's no more of a hot hand than Mike Fontenot.

[mul21]

On top of what Mojo said, Pie has shown that he needs a month or longer at each level he's gone to to figure it out and start hitting well. If you don't play him regularly now, it ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy that he won't succeed because he hasn't been given the opportunity he needs to do so.

 

You end up potentially mortgaging the future for some small short term gains.

[Sammy Sofa]

On top of what Mojo said, Pie has shown that he needs a month or longer at each level he's gone to to figure it out and start hitting well. If you don't play him regularly now, it ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy that he won't succeed because he hasn't been given the opportunity he needs to do so.

 

You end up potentially mortgaging the future for some small short term gains.

 

Exactly. It's just people making excuses to further put off the time that Pie will need to struggle and learn and see if he can stick around. He's gonna need that time at some point...we can't just wait for a time when the Cubs are going to be in a "better" position to do so, because knowing the Cubs, that time will never be around.

[Abe Frohman]

You guys don't believe in the "fire under the ass" technique?

 

Let me be clear, because I don't think I have been: in no way should Reed Johnson (or anyone for that matter) take Pie's playing time, because he Pie is our CFer - but play Johnson while he's contributing (which he has) and let Pie know that there are other options.

 

Pie is going to be good, and he will get his AB's. He needs to.

[jersey cubs fan]

You guys don't believe in the "fire under the ass" technique?

 

In baseball? No way. It's one thing if a guy is loafing around. By fire under the butt isn't going to help a young hitter learn his job.

 

And the fact is, as much as we'd like people to just come up and contribute, practically every young player has to be allowed to struggle in the majors before you can expect significant production.

 

 

This is also why you don't go into a season where you want to break in 2 rookies with a player as horrible as Theriot at SS.

[Abe Frohman]

You guys don't believe in the "fire under the ass" technique?

 

In baseball?

 

Badminton.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

You guys don't believe in the "fire under the ass" technique?

absolutely not here -- Pie already has enough motivation to succeed, he should be given the chance

[Abe Frohman]

You guys don't believe in the "fire under the ass" technique?

absolutely not here -- Pie already has enough motivation to succeed, he should be given the chance

 

I don't think starting Johnson for a spell is going to take the chance to start away from Pie. He may need a little breather from time to time. Especially if he is being overmatched. A little break may do a player like him good.

[Sammy Sofa]

You guys don't believe in the "fire under the ass" technique?

absolutely not here -- Pie already has enough motivation to succeed, he should be given the chance

 

I don't think starting Johnson for a spell is going to take the chance to start away from Pie. He may need a little breather from time to time. Especially if he is being overmatched. A little break may do a player like him good.

 

But you already created a self-defeating scenario that strips Pie of playing time. You say you want him to get his time, but then you say Johnson should play if he's outproducing him. Well, Pie's clearly going to be ice cold for some long stretches while he learns the ropes...it's not going to be difficult for Johnson to outproduce Pie when he comes in against lefties. So that just sits Pie, which prolongs him taking his lumps even further, which means he's even more likely to suck when he does get a chance to play, which just gets Johnson more starts.

 

Play Pie against every RHer unless he's hurt, period.

[jersey cubs fan]

You guys don't believe in the "fire under the ass" technique?

absolutely not here -- Pie already has enough motivation to succeed, he should be given the chance

 

I don't think starting Johnson for a spell is going to take the chance to start away from Pie. He may need a little breather from time to time. Especially if he is being overmatched. A little break may do a player like him good.

 

Little breather and a little break doesn't match up well with playing 4 games then sitting 3, soon to be 4. I completely agree with the idea of "little breaks", but game 4 was Pie's first 0-fer game (compared to Johnson going 0-fer in his second start) and then he sits. Right now, it might not be a problem, if that's an aberration. But if it's a sign of things to come, this isn't going to end well.

[Abe Frohman]

I'm pretty confident that Pie is going to get at least 400 AB's this year. I'm also pretty sure he'll be the Cubs CF for quite a while. We have a decent bench, I just think it should be used.

 

You guys know I'm a fan of Theriot, and I am all for Ronny getting a few starts. Especially right now. I just want the Cubs to have their best 9 on the field and win.

[Mizzou]

Not that I'm advocating benching him, but how long of a leash do you give Pie? If he's putting up last year's numbers at the end of May, do you still start him every day against righties?

[Fred Hornkohl]

i say reed is the starter for now.

No; Pie needs regular playing time. He's not going to improve by sitting on the bench or going back to AAA.

 

I would never prefer helping a player over helping a team. If the Cubs win with Reed, they should go with Reed. At least until a change is needed.

 

This is a meaningless statement. It's like saying, "if the Cubs are winning with yellow shoelaces, they should keep wearing yellow shoelaces." Just because they've won some games WITH Johnson in the lineup in no way means they've won BECAUSE of him, and they haven't, and that argument shouldn't be used to yet again bench Pie when he should be playing as much as possible.

 

I think you are overstating your case here. In spite of the small sample size, it can be argued that Johnson has contributed significantly to the CUBS' offense, while Pie's contribution has been marginal, at best.

 

03/31 - 04/07    AB  R  H 2b 3b  HR RBI BB SO    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS BABIP  P/PA  BDI LOB RBI%
Johnson          13  2  4  1  0   0   2  2  1  .308  .400  .385  .785  .333  4.07    2   3 .400
Pie              16  0  3  0  0   0   0  0  4  .188  .235  .188  .423  .250  3.82    0  11 .000

 

With Pie starting in center field the CUBS are 1-3, scoring 3.50 runs per game. With Johnson, they are 3-0 and scoring 7.33 R/G. Nobody is going to claim that Johnson is worth the extra 3.83 runs per game over Pie, but the fact remains that Johnson has scored 2 runs and driven in 2 more (out of 5 RBI opportunities), while Pie hasn't scored a run and is 0-11 in rbi opportunities.

 

If it were up to me..... I just might use the yellow laces for another game or two.

[Sammy Sofa]

i say reed is the starter for now.

No; Pie needs regular playing time. He's not going to improve by sitting on the bench or going back to AAA.

 

I would never prefer helping a player over helping a team. If the Cubs win with Reed, they should go with Reed. At least until a change is needed.

 

This is a meaningless statement. It's like saying, "if the Cubs are winning with yellow shoelaces, they should keep wearing yellow shoelaces." Just because they've won some games WITH Johnson in the lineup in no way means they've won BECAUSE of him, and they haven't, and that argument shouldn't be used to yet again bench Pie when he should be playing as much as possible.[/quote

 

I think you are overstating your case here. In spite of the small sample size, it can be argued that Johnson has contributed significantly to the CUBS' offense, while Pie's contribution has been marginal, at best.

 

03/31 - 04/07    AB  R  H 2b 3b  HR RBI BB SO    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS BABIP  P/PA  BDI LOB RBI%
Johnson          13  2  4  1  0   0   2  2  1  .308  .400  .385  .785  .333  4.07    2   3 .400
Pie              16  0  3  0  0   0   0  0  4  .188  .235  .188  .423  .250  3.82    0  11 .000

 

With Pie starting in center field the CUBS are 1-3, scoring 3.50 runs per game. With Johnson, they are 3-0 and scoring 7.33 R/G. Nobody is going to claim that Johnson is worth the extra 3.83 runs per game over Pie, but the fact remains that Johnson has scored 2 runs and driven in 2 more (out of 5 RBI opportunities), while Pie hasn't scored a run and is 0-11 in rbi opportunities.

 

If it were up to me..... I just might use the yellow laces for another game or two.

 

Nobody is arguing that Johnson can't contribute, but the arguments to give him more starts end up too close to saying they're winning because of his contributions, as if having Pie in there would have guarenteed them losing.

 

It all ends up being the big picture...do they give Johnson and his known ceiling more starts or do they deal with the growing pains of someone who could possibly be the productive (or better) CF starter for this team ideally for the next decade+? Sitting Pie more is just going to prolong that process or ultimately kill his chances of ever succeeding. It's easy to make excuses to not do it, but at some point he needs to just play as much as possible or they might as well just trade him while he still has value.

[Sammy Sofa]

Not that I'm advocating benching him, but how long of a leash do you give Pie? If he's putting up last year's numbers at the end of May, do you still start him every day against righties?

 

At the very least they need to let him get as many starts against righties through the ASB. Given the track records of Latin players around his age, at least a full year is ideal. If the Cubs wise up and upgrade SS, they can easily handle Pie's growth.

[Fred Hornkohl]

 

Nobody is arguing that Johnson can't contribute, but the arguments to give him more starts end up too close to saying they're winning because of his contributions, as if having Pie in there would have guarenteed them losing.

 

It all ends up being the big picture...do they give Johnson and his known ceiling more starts or do they deal with the growing pains of someone who could possibly be the productive (or better) CF starter for this team ideally for the next decade+? Sitting Pie more is just going to prolong that process or ultimately kill his chances of ever succeeding. It's easy to make excuses to not do it, but at some point he needs to just play as much as possible or they might as well just trade him while he still has value.

 

Pie's got a dinged up hand, Johnson is seeing the ball well and producing, and there's another left hander going for the Pirates tomorrow. We're talking about a game or two here. This isn't about the "big picture", it's a temporary thing. Come back in off the ledge.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

Nobody is arguing that Johnson can't contribute, but the arguments to give him more starts end up too close to saying they're winning because of his contributions, as if having Pie in there would have guarenteed them losing.

 

It all ends up being the big picture...do they give Johnson and his known ceiling more starts or do they deal with the growing pains of someone who could possibly be the productive (or better) CF starter for this team ideally for the next decade+? Sitting Pie more is just going to prolong that process or ultimately kill his chances of ever succeeding. It's easy to make excuses to not do it, but at some point he needs to just play as much as possible or they might as well just trade him while he still has value.

 

Pie's got a dinged up hand, Johnson is seeing the ball well and producing, and there's another left hander going for the Pirates tomorrow. We're talking about a game or two here. This isn't about the "big picture", it's a temporary thing. Come back in off the ledge.

 

Not really. We're talking 4 straight games after tomorrow, including against righties. 4 of 8 games does not equate to a game or two here and there, a breather, or little breaks. 4 of 8 is not a good sign, if it's a sign of anything.

[Sammy Sofa]

 

Nobody is arguing that Johnson can't contribute, but the arguments to give him more starts end up too close to saying they're winning because of his contributions, as if having Pie in there would have guarenteed them losing.

 

It all ends up being the big picture...do they give Johnson and his known ceiling more starts or do they deal with the growing pains of someone who could possibly be the productive (or better) CF starter for this team ideally for the next decade+? Sitting Pie more is just going to prolong that process or ultimately kill his chances of ever succeeding. It's easy to make excuses to not do it, but at some point he needs to just play as much as possible or they might as well just trade him while he still has value.

 

Pie's got a dinged up hand, Johnson is seeing the ball well and producing, and there's another left hander going for the Pirates tomorrow. We're talking about a game or two here. This isn't about the "big picture", it's a temporary thing. Come back in off the ledge.

 

Not really. We're talking 4 straight games after tomorrow, including against righties. 4 of 8 games does not equate to a game or two here and there, a breather, or little breaks. 4 of 8 is not a good sign, if it's a sign of anything.

 

Exactly.

[Abe Frohman]

Not really. We're talking 4 straight games after tomorrow, including against righties. 4 of 8 games does not equate to a game or two here and there, a breather, or little breaks. 4 of 8 is not a good sign, if it's a sign of anything.

 

So are you thinking that Lou has found favor with Reed Johnson over Pie? With Soriano and Ramirez relatively cold as ice, I can see him looking for a little more production. I seriously doubt you have anything to worry about concerning Pie's grasp on CF.

[Sammy Sofa]

Not really. We're talking 4 straight games after tomorrow, including against righties. 4 of 8 games does not equate to a game or two here and there, a breather, or little breaks. 4 of 8 is not a good sign, if it's a sign of anything.

 

So are you thinking that Lou has found favor with Reed Johnson over Pie? With Soriano and Ramirez relatively cold as ice, I can see him looking for a little more production. I seriously doubt you have anything to worry about concerning Pie's grasp on CF.

 

Johnson does little to replace the type of production Soriano and Ramirez are counted on for. Move DeRosa to #2 and you likely get the same results and Pie still gets his AB's. Anything else is just an excuse to get a bench player more starts.

[jersey cubs fan]

Not really. We're talking 4 straight games after tomorrow, including against righties. 4 of 8 games does not equate to a game or two here and there, a breather, or little breaks. 4 of 8 is not a good sign, if it's a sign of anything.

 

So are you thinking that Lou has found favor with Reed Johnson over Pie? With Soriano and Ramirez relatively cold as ice, I can see him looking for a little more production. I seriously doubt you have anything to worry about concerning Pie's grasp on CF.

 

I think Lou may have decided he's unhappy with a $100+ million go for broke roster breaking in 2 rookies in the lineup. And since he's unlikely to be here a couple years from now, he's got very little interest in helping Pie develop for the future if he feels he can get any sort of marginal current upgrade by Johnson. I'm thinking Lou may have decided that Pie getting most of the PA and Johnson spelling him from time to time is going to be more like Johnson getting at least half the PA and Pie having to hit now or never to increase his playing time. He's shown a quick hook with guys before, and unflinching loyalty to little scrappy dudes as well.

 

Yes, I think Lou has found favor with Reed over Pie. I'm not sure he has, and I'm sure he's could just as easily change his mind even if he has. But, the trend as it stands today, is not good.

[Abe Frohman]

Yes, I think Lou has found favor with Reed over Pie. I'm not sure he has, and I'm sure he's could just as easily change his mind even if he has. But, the trend as it stands today, is not good.

 

Well, I hope you are wrong. I remember wondering why it took so long for Lou to bench Theriot last fall. I am not really feeling that Pie lost his job, though. I think the game plan has been to let him hit against RHP, and Reed against LHP. I can live with a temporary platoon until Pie starts hitting his stride, but I am not a fan of the yearlong platoon with him.

 

I just hope he starts hitting soon. It's just a matter of time.

[bukie]

(I thought this was a Soriano thread...)

 

Rotoworld mentioned Sunday that the Cubs were resting Pie because of his hand on Saturday and Sunday. Yesterday and tomorrow there are lefties pitching, so Johnson gets more time. I could be wrong, but I think the 4 game layoff is largely coincidental due to the HBP last week and the 2 lefties in a row this week. We'll know for sure by next week, but I'm not about to get too concerned yet.

 

Although Pie's AB yesterday was hugely frustrating, swinging at 3 pitches outside the strike zone to a pitcher who walked 5 in the inning.

[jersey cubs fan]

Yes, I think Lou has found favor with Reed over Pie. I'm not sure he has, and I'm sure he's could just as easily change his mind even if he has. But, the trend as it stands today, is not good.

 

Well, I hope you are wrong. I remember wondering why it took so long for Lou to bench Theriot last fall. I am not really feeling that Pie lost his job, though. I think the game plan has been to let him hit against RHP, and Reed against LHP. I can live with a temporary platoon until Pie starts hitting his stride, but I am not a fan of the yearlong platoon with him.

 

I just hope he starts hitting soon. It's just a matter of time.

 

I think it's a lot more than a matter of time. There's a very real possibility that he nevers improves enough to warrent a full-time job. My feeling though, is you have to give him the chance to prove himself first.