Why isnt Kenny Lofton a Cub yet?

[rchap24]

Lofton was an obvious signing to make, I can't believe Jim didn't even make an offer.

 

1) he might have

2) there is no reason to

3) Pie is a better defender

4) much higher upside

5) both struggle with lefty pitching

Ok I know that I don't have any justification about deciding if Pie is a good fielder, but I've played baseball almost my entire life especially CF. I might just be me, but Pie gets some of the worse reads on balls. I feel like he is an amazing athlete, but sometimes that doesn't completely make him a good CF. He's got a cannon and great speed, but already in just two games this year he has made bad reads which caused a single to turn into a double if fielded correctly. I'm not saying Lofton would be much better, but he at least knows the outfield which may just be Pie's problem and he needs to get used to it, but Lofton is better offensively....I don't know I might be in the outs, but in just two games im getting sick of seeing Pie horribly strike out at pitch that barely makes it to the dirt in front of the plate on a breaking ball. So Lofton might not be an amazing upgrade, but I wouldnt mind the signing cause he could help and probably at least give Pie someone to learn some basics in the outfield like cutting off base hits before they get to wall and cause extra base hits.

[SouthSideRyan]

Pie right now is probably a better defender than Lofton was at his peak. He's certainly far superior to Lofton today. So this is coming down to wanting to bench Pie after 2 games because of his 2 for 8 start.

[rchap24]

Pie right now is probably a better defender than Lofton was at his peak. He's certainly far superior to Lofton today. So this is coming down to wanting to bench Pie after 2 games because of his 2 for 8 start.

 

I just think Pie is overhyped. He probably will become a great fielder dont get me wrong. I just think that he isnt even to the level you guys say he is so far with his reads. The thing is though before he was rated as a 5-tool player. I'm sorry, but I dont think I could ever see him ever getting any pop. He could become a decent slap hitter, like a Luis Castillo type hitter. That would be nice if he tried to do that...Ha I know ill probably get ripped for this, but thats just my take on it! Sorry!

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I like Kenny and all, but we don't have a need for him. If he were right-handed, there might be a case for using him as a platoon mate for Pie instead of Reed. But, his defense has slipped and we need to see what we have in Pie.

[NCCubFan]

I hear Ricky Henderson is available. Doesn't he play leadoff?

Don Kessinger is available. He plays leadoff AND shortstop. And Don Kessinger was good. :D

[hardcorecubfan]

But Kenny off the bench late in the season wouldn't be a joke

[Lefty]

leadoff isn't a position, etc.

No, but Center field is. I know, hes a left fielder, but surely, with his speed he could handle center, or put Fuku there and put Kenny in Rt.

 

If we were gonna put Fuku in Center, why not just play Murton in Right? Signing Lofton would be a microcosm of what has been wrong with the Cubs historically.

[Wheelimus]

leadoff isn't a position, etc.

No, but Center field is. I know, hes a left fielder, but surely, with his speed he could handle center, or put Fuku there and put Kenny in Rt.

 

If we were gonna put Fuku in Center, why not just play Murton in Right? Signing Lofton would be a microcosm of what has been wrong with the Cubs historically.

 

Or if we're putting Fuku in center, why not just play Murton in Left?

 

Somehow I think Fonzie can figure out Right Field.

[Lefty]

leadoff isn't a position, etc.

No, but Center field is. I know, hes a left fielder, but surely, with his speed he could handle center, or put Fuku there and put Kenny in Rt.

 

If we were gonna put Fuku in Center, why not just play Murton in Right? Signing Lofton would be a microcosm of what has been wrong with the Cubs historically.

 

Or if we're putting Fuku in center, why not just play Murton in Left?

 

Somehow I think Fonzie can figure out Right Field.

 

You get my point.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I just think Pie is overhyped. He probably will become a great fielder dont get me wrong. I just think that he isnt even to the level you guys say he is so far with his reads. The thing is though before he was rated as a 5-tool player. I'm sorry, but I dont think I could ever see him ever getting any pop. He could become a decent slap hitter, like a Luis Castillo type hitter. That would be nice if he tried to do that...Ha I know ill probably get ripped for this, but thats just my take on it! Sorry!

 

First, you can't just "try" to be a slap hittter. You either have that skill or you don't. If he was a slap-hitter, he would have been one all the way through the minors.

 

Second, if you are thinking of the double I think you are, you are incredibly underestimating how hard it was hit. Nobody in all of baseball cuts that ball off for a single.

[rchap24]

I just think Pie is overhyped. He probably will become a great fielder dont get me wrong. I just think that he isnt even to the level you guys say he is so far with his reads. The thing is though before he was rated as a 5-tool player. I'm sorry, but I dont think I could ever see him ever getting any pop. He could become a decent slap hitter, like a Luis Castillo type hitter. That would be nice if he tried to do that...Ha I know ill probably get ripped for this, but thats just my take on it! Sorry!

 

First, you can't just "try" to be a slap hittter. You either have that skill or you don't. If he was a slap-hitter, he would have been one all the way through the minors.

 

Second, if you are thinking of the double I think you are, you are incredibly underestimating how hard it was hit. Nobody in all of baseball cuts that ball off for a single.

 

It wasn't just once... it's happened multiple times in 3 games

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Pie right now is probably a better defender than Lofton was at his peak. He's certainly far superior to Lofton today. So this is coming down to wanting to bench Pie after 2 games because of his 2 for 8 start.

 

I just think Pie is overhyped. He probably will become a great fielder dont get me wrong. I just think that he isnt even to the level you guys say he is so far with his reads. The thing is though before he was rated as a 5-tool player. I'm sorry, but I dont think I could ever see him ever getting any pop. He could become a decent slap hitter, like a Luis Castillo type hitter. That would be nice if he tried to do that...Ha I know ill probably get ripped for this, but thats just my take on it! Sorry!

 

I just think you're wrong on many, many accounts. First of all, Pie is only 23 years old. Part of the reason he's been hyped so much is that he's been in the system since he was 17. Pie put 314/375/558 in the low minors at the age most kids are still playing for their high school teams.

 

His minor league numbers indicate that he will be able to hit. I don't know what you are watching, but his defense already makes him one of the top CF in baseball. He has incredible quickness and a good arm. His reads are not always the best, but with his athletic skills, he can make up most of the difference.

 

While he may not develop into a homerun hitter, I think he will demonstrate acceptable power from CF. He already has more power than Kenny Lofton.

 

Pie will take some time to develop. He's going to have to take his lumps at some point this year, but when it's all said and done, Pie will bring more value offensively and defensively than the grizzled Lofton would bring. If we could bring Kenny Lofton circa 1997 here, then I'd buy your point. But, I think Pie is the better player not only for this year, but because of what he'll bring in the future as well.

[TruffleShuffle]

He's going to have to take his lumps at some point this year, but when it's all said and done, Pie will bring more value offensively and defensively than the grizzled Lofton would bring.

 

defensively this is certainly true. offensively, it depends on whether felix can make adjustments to big league pitching. if he cannot, then he will not be as good as lofton offensively.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

He's going to have to take his lumps at some point this year, but when it's all said and done, Pie will bring more value offensively and defensively than the grizzled Lofton would bring.

 

defensively this is certainly true. offensively, it depends on whether felix can make adjustments to big league pitching. if he cannot, then he will not be as good as lofton offensively.

 

I still think if you combine the two contributions, Pie would contribute more to the Cubs than the Lofton. His defense is that much better than Lofton.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It wasn't just once... it's happened multiple times in 3 games

 

There have only been three doubles hit to CF all season against the Cubs. Should he have cut off all three?

[rchap24]

Pie right now is probably a better defender than Lofton was at his peak. He's certainly far superior to Lofton today. So this is coming down to wanting to bench Pie after 2 games because of his 2 for 8 start.

 

I just think Pie is overhyped. He probably will become a great fielder dont get me wrong. I just think that he isnt even to the level you guys say he is so far with his reads. The thing is though before he was rated as a 5-tool player. I'm sorry, but I dont think I could ever see him ever getting any pop. He could become a decent slap hitter, like a Luis Castillo type hitter. That would be nice if he tried to do that...Ha I know ill probably get ripped for this, but thats just my take on it! Sorry!

 

I just think you're wrong on many, many accounts. First of all, Pie is only 23 years old. Part of the reason he's been hyped so much is that he's been in the system since he was 17. Pie put 314/375/558 in the low minors at the age most kids are still playing for their high school teams.

 

His minor league numbers indicate that he will be able to hit. I don't know what you are watching, but his defense already makes him one of the top CF in baseball. He has incredible quickness and a good arm. His reads are not always the best, but with his athletic skills, he can make up most of the difference.

 

While he may not develop into a homerun hitter, I think he will demonstrate acceptable power from CF. He already has more power than Kenny Lofton.

 

Pie will take some time to develop. He's going to have to take his lumps at some point this year, but when it's all said and done, Pie will bring more value offensively and defensively than the grizzled Lofton would bring. If we could bring Kenny Lofton circa 1997 here, then I'd buy your point. But, I think Pie is the better player not only for this year, but because of what he'll bring in the future as well.

 

I'm not saying that he wont, but his swing just looks horrible. I think lofton even against lefties would be more reliable if we picked him up. I'm not saying he will stay healthy, but healthy he is a more consistent and better chance for us getting someone on base thats all

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Pie right now is probably a better defender than Lofton was at his peak. He's certainly far superior to Lofton today. So this is coming down to wanting to bench Pie after 2 games because of his 2 for 8 start.

 

I just think Pie is overhyped. He probably will become a great fielder dont get me wrong. I just think that he isnt even to the level you guys say he is so far with his reads. The thing is though before he was rated as a 5-tool player. I'm sorry, but I dont think I could ever see him ever getting any pop. He could become a decent slap hitter, like a Luis Castillo type hitter. That would be nice if he tried to do that...Ha I know ill probably get ripped for this, but thats just my take on it! Sorry!

 

I just think you're wrong on many, many accounts. First of all, Pie is only 23 years old. Part of the reason he's been hyped so much is that he's been in the system since he was 17. Pie put 314/375/558 in the low minors at the age most kids are still playing for their high school teams.

 

His minor league numbers indicate that he will be able to hit. I don't know what you are watching, but his defense already makes him one of the top CF in baseball. He has incredible quickness and a good arm. His reads are not always the best, but with his athletic skills, he can make up most of the difference.

 

While he may not develop into a homerun hitter, I think he will demonstrate acceptable power from CF. He already has more power than Kenny Lofton.

 

Pie will take some time to develop. He's going to have to take his lumps at some point this year, but when it's all said and done, Pie will bring more value offensively and defensively than the grizzled Lofton would bring. If we could bring Kenny Lofton circa 1997 here, then I'd buy your point. But, I think Pie is the better player not only for this year, but because of what he'll bring in the future as well.

 

I'm not saying that he wont, but his swing just looks horrible. I think lofton even against lefties would be more reliable if we picked him up. I'm not saying he will stay healthy, but healthy he is a more consistent and better chance for us getting someone on base thats all

 

Lofton is the safer bet with the bat. But his drop in defense is quite significant. If he were playing in 2008, PECOTA projects Lofton to be a WARP 2.5 player. Pie is projected to be a 3.8 WARP.

 

Pie's defense combined with Lofton's age make Pie the better bet. We're not talking Lofton at 31 or even Lofton at 36. Lofton is 41 years old. His arm is Pierre like at this stage. He's lost a step or two which makes him a stretch in CF. He can still handle it, but he's not the defender he once was. Pie's value on defense makes him the better bet, and considering that Pie's ceiling is much higher than you can expect to get from Lofton, it's just not a good move. While some may argue that Lofton's floor may not be as low as Pie, I'd argue that due to Lofton's age, you just can't be certain of that.

 

Lofton has been a solid player his entire career, and if we didn't have a capable CF, he would be worth a look. But considering we have a prospect in Pie who has put up the minor league numbers that he has, it doesn't make sense to even think about Lofton.

 

Furthermore, Pie begins the season at 23. Last season at age 22, Pie posted a pitiful 215/271/333 line in 87 games for a OPS+ of 53. Yes, I know it's bad and it's why many have been harsh on him and his prospects of making it.

 

However at age 24 Lofton broke into the major leagues. He only played in 20 games and posted an even worse 203/253/216 line for an even worse OPS+ of 38.

 

The next season, he rebounded to post a 285/362/365 line. It's very possible that the two players will show similar careers.

 

They're minor league numbers are similar with Lofton showing higher OBP and Pie showing more SLG. Lofton was older at each level, however.

 

What it boils down to is that both are similar players at different ends of the career spectrum. Lofton has proven himself and made a nice career. He is at the end of it or at the very least, the twiglight. Pie is at the dawn of his. Considering what I know about both players, I think the Cubs would be wise to go with Pie.

Edited April 6, 2008 by vance_the_cubs_fan

[SouthSideRyan]

I will admit that putting Lofton in CF with 2 superior defenders in the corners would make me chuckle just a little bit. Not as much as I'd die inside, but there would be that chuckle.

[rchap24]

Pie right now is probably a better defender than Lofton was at his peak. He's certainly far superior to Lofton today. So this is coming down to wanting to bench Pie after 2 games because of his 2 for 8 start.

 

I just think Pie is overhyped. He probably will become a great fielder dont get me wrong. I just think that he isnt even to the level you guys say he is so far with his reads. The thing is though before he was rated as a 5-tool player. I'm sorry, but I dont think I could ever see him ever getting any pop. He could become a decent slap hitter, like a Luis Castillo type hitter. That would be nice if he tried to do that...Ha I know ill probably get ripped for this, but thats just my take on it! Sorry!

 

I just think you're wrong on many, many accounts. First of all, Pie is only 23 years old. Part of the reason he's been hyped so much is that he's been in the system since he was 17. Pie put 314/375/558 in the low minors at the age most kids are still playing for their high school teams.

 

His minor league numbers indicate that he will be able to hit. I don't know what you are watching, but his defense already makes him one of the top CF in baseball. He has incredible quickness and a good arm. His reads are not always the best, but with his athletic skills, he can make up most of the difference.

 

While he may not develop into a homerun hitter, I think he will demonstrate acceptable power from CF. He already has more power than Kenny Lofton.

 

Pie will take some time to develop. He's going to have to take his lumps at some point this year, but when it's all said and done, Pie will bring more value offensively and defensively than the grizzled Lofton would bring. If we could bring Kenny Lofton circa 1997 here, then I'd buy your point. But, I think Pie is the better player not only for this year, but because of what he'll bring in the future as well.

 

I'm not saying that he wont, but his swing just looks horrible. I think lofton even against lefties would be more reliable if we picked him up. I'm not saying he will stay healthy, but healthy he is a more consistent and better chance for us getting someone on base thats all

 

Lofton is the safer bet with the bat. But his drop in defense is quite significant. If he were playing in 2008, PECOTA projects Lofton to be a WARP 2.5 player. Pie is projected to be a 3.8 WARP.

 

Pie's defense combined with Lofton's age make Pie the better bet. We're not talking Lofton at 31 or even Lofton at 36. Lofton is 41 years old. His arm is Pierre like at this stage. He's lost a step or two which makes him a stretch in CF. He can still handle it, but he's not the defender he once was. Pie's value on defense makes him the better bet, and considering that Pie's ceiling is much higher than you can expect to get from Lofton, it's just not a good move. While some may argue that Lofton's floor may not be as low as Pie, I'd argue that due to Lofton's age, you just can't be certain of that.

 

Lofton has been a solid player his entire career, and if we didn't have a capable CF, he would be worth a look. But considering we have a prospect in Pie who has put up the minor league numbers that he has, it doesn't make sense to even think about Lofton.

 

Furthermore, Pie begins the season at 23. Last season at age 22, Pie posted a pitiful 215/271/333 line in 87 games for a OPS+ of 53. Yes, I know it's bad and it's why many have been harsh on him and his prospects of making it.

 

However at age 24 Lofton broke into the major leagues. He only played in 20 games and posted an even worse 203/253/216 line for an even worse OPS+ of 38.

 

The next season, he rebounded to post a 285/362/365 line. It's very possible that the two players will show similar careers.

 

They're minor league numbers are similar with Lofton showing higher OBP and Pie showing more SLG. Lofton was older at each level, however.

 

What it boils down to is that both are similar players at different ends of the career spectrum. Lofton has proven himself and made a nice career. He is at the end of it or at the very least, the twiglight. Pie is at the dawn of his. Considering what I know about both players, I think the Cubs would be wise to go with Pie.

I get your point....I wasn't trying to make an argument. I'm liking Reed out there right now though haha :yahoo:

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm liking Reed out there right now though haha :yahoo:

 

Why?

[rchap24]

I'm liking Reed out there right now though haha :yahoo:

 

Why?

haha I've just heard so much talk about the grinders from the south side and Reed is grind all the way haha...I was basically kidding :lol: