Greateset Cubs first baseman

[OleMissCub]

Phil Cavaretta: 1953 games, .292/.371/.416, 1927 hits, 92 HR, 341 2B, 99 3B, 896 RBI, 968 runs, 118 OPS+, 1014 runs created

 

Mark Grace: 1910 games, .308/.386/.445, 2201 hits, 148 HR, 456 2B, 43 3B, 1004 RBI, 1057 runs, 122 OPS+, 1259 runs created

 

Derrek Lee: 519 games, .308/.389/.552, 597 hits, 108 HR, 141 2B, 5 3B, 317 RBI, 331 runs, 138 OPS+, 420 runs created

[The Voice of Reason]

Granted he started out as a SS but no Ernie Banks?

[OleMissCub]

Granted he started out as a SS but no Ernie Banks?

 

He was moved there for age. Banks at first is what I'd call a "circumstantial" first baseman. His stats at SS and at 1B are night and day.

 

SS: .291/.361/.577, 138 OPS+

1B: .260/.308/.448, 85 OPS+

[The Voice of Reason]

Granted he started out as a SS but no Ernie Banks?

 

He was moved there for age. Banks at first is what I'd call a "circumstantial" first baseman. His stats at SS and at 1B are night and day.

 

SS: .291/.361/.577, 138 OPS+

1B: .260/.308/.448, 85 OPS+

 

But he was Mr. Cub :wink:

[Derwood]

seems like there should be a better choice, doesn't there?

[DenverCubs]

seems like there should be a better choice, doesn't there?

I would say Cap Anson definitely deserves a spot...

[Butterscup1679666578]

Voted Grace, but if Lee is around for 5+ more years, he'll probably be the best

[OleMissCub]

seems like there should be a better choice, doesn't there?

I would say Cap Anson definitely deserves a spot...

 

Original requirements didn't include players pre-20th century, so Anson is out.

[illiniguy]

Where is Frank Chance?

[Sammy Sofa]

Voted Grace, but if Lee is around for 5+ more years, he'll probably be the best

 

QFT. Gracey wins it now, but I'm pretty confident Lee will own it after the next few seasons.

[OleMissCub]

Where is Frank Chance?

 

He really wasn't all that impressive of a baseball player, just a great manager and leader.

 

.296/.394/.394

[TruffleShuffle]

Where is Frank Chance?

 

He really wasn't all that impressive of a baseball player, just a great manager and leader.

 

.296/.394/.394

 

OPS+... 135

[OleMissCub]

Where is Frank Chance?

 

He really wasn't all that impressive of a baseball player, just a great manager and leader.

 

.296/.394/.394

 

OPS+... 135

 

Yes, when he actually played he was very good. He just didn't put up the type of numbers that would make him an all time great for the franchise.

 

From Bill James "Baseball Abstract" about Chance (Bill James' Baseball Abstract, pg. 441):

 

Chance was a great player, at his best. He was an exceptional defensive first baseman, a natural leader, a good hitter, an outstanding baserunner, and a smart percentage player. He was a great player for three or four years. So was Ted Kluszewski. Chance wasn't a great hitter, and he wasn't an impact player like Dick Allen or Willie Stargell. He never played 140 games in a season; only once did he play 130 games.

 

While Ive got the book out, I may as well quote James' takes on the other guys, except Lee.

 

Mark Grace (Bill James' Baseball Abstract, pg. 444):

 

People think in terms of images. When the Cubs had Grace at first base and Sandberg at second, they used to bat Sandberg second and Grace third. This makes no sense. Grace, who never had much power, was not a good #3 hitter, but woudl have been a great #2 hitter. With a .308 career average (written in 2000) and a lot of walks, he'd be on base, which is the #1 function of a top of the order guy. As a left handed hitter who could handle the bat, he could hit and run, take advantage of the hole at first if the leadoff man was on, and (as a lefty) be an obstacle to the catcher on stolen base tries.

 

Sandberg, on the other hand, was a just-fair number two hitter, and much better suited to hitting third -- but hit second. Why? Images. We assume, if we don't think about it, that a first baseman hits in the middle of the order, and a second baseman hits at the top of the order if he can hit, the 6-7-8 spots if he doesn't. The Cub managers just never thought about it long enough to get past the images.

 

Phil Cavarretta (Bill James' Baseball Abstract, pg. 453):

 

Cavaretta was one of the youngest regular players of this century in 1935, when he played 146 games at first base for the Cubs; he was 18 years old when the season started and turned 19 in July. He won the National League batting championship (.355) and MVP Award ten years later, when he was 28/29. Warren Brown wrote at that time (The Chicago Cubs, G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1946) that Cavaretta "broke in as a first baseman of promise. Thereafter he was destined to appear in various outfield positions and at one time was being groomed as a prospective pitcher. Wherever he landed he did more than a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. If the mind-changing Cub management had ever seen fit to station him at one place and keep him there, it is possible that his designation as the league's most valuable player might not have been so long delayed."

 

Phil Cavaretta claims to be the man who roped off the center field seats in Wrigley Field to protect the batter's hitting background, a policy which was eventually copied by all major league teams. One time on a Sunday there was a big crowd, a lot of white shirts in the center field bleachers. Cavaretta was batting against Curt Simmons, who threw rockets. Cavarretta didn't pick up the ball until the last instant, and it nearly killed him; he just got his arm up at the last second, and the pitch broke his arm. Cavarretta went to the Cubs' general manager and begged him to rope off the center field bleachers, to prevent somebody from being killed by a pitch.

[Guest]

Went with Derrek Lee. Probably biased since I can't stand Mark Grace these days.

[TarzanJoeWallis]

Went with Derrek Lee. Probably biased since I can't stand Mark Grace these days.

 

Same with me, Raisin. This is fun. Thanks for doing it OleMissCub. On the Indiana Pacers board I frequent they did something similar to this but with numbers. For instance, the greatest Pacer ever to wear number 1, number 2, number 3, etc.

[illiniguy]

Went with Derrek Lee. Probably biased since I can't stand Mark Grace these days.

God it is hard to vote for a guy whose best career moment is beating our team and costing us a world series with his go ahead double. I sitll want to write in Chance.

[Roast]

Lee. He has put up comparable numbers in less than half the games.

[seanimal]

Went with Derrek Lee. Probably biased since I can't stand Mark Grace these days.

God it is hard to vote for a guy whose best career moment is beating our team and costing us a world series with his go ahead double. I sitll want to write in Chance.

 

Did you just cite Derrek Lee as the reason the Cubs did not win the World Series in '03?

[imb]

Lee. He has put up comparable numbers in less than half the games.

 

That doesn't make sense.

 

The answer is Chance.

[TruffleShuffle]

Where is Frank Chance?

 

He really wasn't all that impressive of a baseball player, just a great manager and leader.

 

.296/.394/.394

 

OPS+... 135

 

Yes, when he actually played he was very good. He just didn't put up the type of numbers that would make him an all time great for the franchise.

 

From Bill James "Baseball Abstract" about Chance (Bill James' Baseball Abstract, pg. 441):

 

Chance was a great player, at his best. He was an exceptional defensive first baseman, a natural leader, a good hitter, an outstanding baserunner, and a smart percentage player. He was a great player for three or four years. So was Ted Kluszewski. Chance wasn't a great hitter, and he wasn't an impact player like Dick Allen or Willie Stargell. He never played 140 games in a season; only once did he play 130 games.

 

While Ive got the book out, I may as well quote James' takes on the other guys, except Lee.

 

Mark Grace (Bill James' Baseball Abstract, pg. 444):

 

People think in terms of images. When the Cubs had Grace at first base and Sandberg at second, they used to bat Sandberg second and Grace third. This makes no sense. Grace, who never had much power, was not a good #3 hitter, but woudl have been a great #2 hitter. With a .308 career average (written in 2000) and a lot of walks, he'd be on base, which is the #1 function of a top of the order guy. As a left handed hitter who could handle the bat, he could hit and run, take advantage of the hole at first if the leadoff man was on, and (as a lefty) be an obstacle to the catcher on stolen base tries.

 

Sandberg, on the other hand, was a just-fair number two hitter, and much better suited to hitting third -- but hit second. Why? Images. We assume, if we don't think about it, that a first baseman hits in the middle of the order, and a second baseman hits at the top of the order if he can hit, the 6-7-8 spots if he doesn't. The Cub managers just never thought about it long enough to get past the images.

 

Phil Cavarretta (Bill James' Baseball Abstract, pg. 453):

 

Cavaretta was one of the youngest regular players of this century in 1935, when he played 146 games at first base for the Cubs; he was 18 years old when the season started and turned 19 in July. He won the National League batting championship (.355) and MVP Award ten years later, when he was 28/29. Warren Brown wrote at that time (The Chicago Cubs, G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1946) that Cavaretta "broke in as a first baseman of promise. Thereafter he was destined to appear in various outfield positions and at one time was being groomed as a prospective pitcher. Wherever he landed he did more than a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. If the mind-changing Cub management had ever seen fit to station him at one place and keep him there, it is possible that his designation as the league's most valuable player might not have been so long delayed."

 

Phil Cavaretta claims to be the man who roped off the center field seats in Wrigley Field to protect the batter's hitting background, a policy which was eventually copied by all major league teams. One time on a Sunday there was a big crowd, a lot of white shirts in the center field bleachers. Cavaretta was batting against Curt Simmons, who threw rockets. Cavarretta didn't pick up the ball until the last instant, and it nearly killed him; he just got his arm up at the last second, and the pitch broke his arm. Cavarretta went to the Cubs' general manager and begged him to rope off the center field bleachers, to prevent somebody from being killed by a pitch.

 

i assume that since he has Chance on p. 441, but Grace on p. 444 and Cavaretta on p. 453, that he has Chance rated more highly than Grace and Cavaretta?

 

i don't think anyone is saying that chance was as good as stargell or even dick allen. but ted kluszewski? the guy was great for 4-5 years and average otherwise. frank chance was really good for nearly his entire career.

[illiniguy]

Went with Derrek Lee. Probably biased since I can't stand Mark Grace these days.

God it is hard to vote for a guy whose best career moment is beating our team and costing us a world series with his go ahead double. I sitll want to write in Chance.

 

Did you just cite Derrek Lee as the reason the Cubs did not win the World Series in '03?

Obviously he wasn't the reason. He just had the big hit. When he looks back at the greatest moment in his career, odds are he would name that play. It is just weird then, imo, to name him the best cubs first basemen ever. Especially when he isn't Frank Chance.

[OleMissCub]

 

i assume that since he has Chance on p. 441, but Grace on p. 444 and Cavaretta on p. 453, that he has Chance rated more highly than Grace and Cavaretta?

 

Yes, he has him ranked slightly higher. He updated the book following the 1999 season, so my guess is that he'd have Grace at or near where Chance is if he were to update it right now.

[biittner77]

Larry Biittner

[CuseCubFan69]

Larry Biittner

 

Mark Grace lite. Well except for the fielding thing. and the weight.

[bukie]

I would say it's odd that Chance isn't even an option, even though he's in the Hall of Fame (albeit one of the least deserving HOF-ers), and Cub first-basemen through the ages haven't exactly been first-balloters.