Detroit Tigers offense

[frostwyrm]

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

 

42 ounces, actually (still heavy as god knows).

 

But, do you really think pitchers in the 20's and 30's threw that much slower? When I was playing in high school, the average pitcher we faced was throwing in the low to mid 80's and the good ones could get it into the 90's. These are 16-17 year olds with no real conditioning and no real training. So, a 2008 teenager >>>>>>> 1925 grown man that is a professional athlete?

 

The well-known Ruth bat that hit the first Yankee stadium homer was 46 ounces. It was auctioned for $1.26 million back in 2004. I don't know if Ruth used a lighter bat at other times.

[Rob]

I'm not going to anoint him because his contemporaries were talentless. He was great by comparison in his days, he'd be left in the dust if he played with today's players. I don't know how this could be disputed.

 

One could just as easily make the argument that without today's advanced training regimines and dietary supplements and all that jazz that none of the modern players would be able to hold a candle to Ruth back then.

[Keener98]

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

 

42 ounces, actually (still heavy as god knows).

 

But, do you really think pitchers in the 20's and 30's threw that much slower? When I was playing in high school, the average pitcher we faced was throwing in the low to mid 80's and the good ones could get it into the 90's. These are 16-17 year olds with no real conditioning and no real training. So, a 2008 teenager >>>>>>> 1925 grown man that is a professional athlete?

 

You must have played in an extraordinary area for high school baseball, because I find that very very hard to believe. Most of the kids I faced when in high school were probably around 70 75 with maybe a few in confernce that could get into the 80's with a limited few in the entire area that could get it into the low 90's.

[Vanilla Ice]

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

 

I kind of agree with him too, but I dont feel like explaining why :wink:

[javy knows my name]

I actually think Cabrera will improve this year. He seemed to have little motivation in Florida. While I'd expect most athletes to give their utmost regardless of their situation, that just isn't realistic. I think the oft stated "change of scenery" cliche/argument actually has warrant as regards Miggy moving to a contender (and an awesome ballpark to boot).

In what sick and twisted world is Comerica an "awesome ballpark?" It's only a slight improvement over Pro Player, and IIRC, has a deeper left field! Factor in AL pitching and I don't think Cabrera is likely to improve.

[BigbadB]

I actually think Cabrera will improve this year. He seemed to have little motivation in Florida. While I'd expect most athletes to give their utmost regardless of their situation, that just isn't realistic. I think the oft stated "change of scenery" cliche/argument actually has warrant as regards Miggy moving to a contender (and an awesome ballpark to boot).

In what sick and twisted world is Comerica an "awesome ballpark?" It's only a slight improvement over Pro Player, and IIRC, has a deeper left field! Factor in AL pitching and I don't think Cabrera is likely to improve.

 

I seem to recall that they have been adjusting the fences in at least once during this decade, maybe more?

[sneakypower]

It's okay, CroMagnon will make something up soon.

???

 

If you're trying to incite something just be upfront about it. I'm tired.

 

This is just a question, but what percentge of offensive players today do you think would put up better numbers than Ruth if they were put in a time machine and shipped back to the 20s?

 

I'm just trying to get a sense of your view of the difference between the eras.

that's hard to say because the situations aren't applicable. the players of today have an incredible advantage because there is the ability to study video, train year round, is such a substantially larger supply of talent to select from. but it's easy to realize players from then would not fare well today. Jimmie Foxx's nickname was "Beast", and this guy was the size of Mark Ellis. Lou Gehrig as well. Hell, anecdotes lead us to believe Babe Ruth was this massive hulk of a person, when in reality he was smaller than Torii Hunter. It's possible that these guys were so cut that they could generate reasonable power from a small frame and enjoy success in any era, but that's just so farfetched it's not even worth entertaining the possibility of it. There's just no parallel for it, other than Soriano perhaps, who is a fantastic athlete and a rare case.

 

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

 

42 ounces, actually (still heavy as god knows).

 

But, do you really think pitchers in the 20's and 30's threw that much slower? When I was playing in high school, the average pitcher we faced was throwing in the low to mid 80's and the good ones could get it into the 90's. These are 16-17 year olds with no real conditioning and no real training. So, a 2008 teenager >>>>>>> 1925 grown man that is a professional athlete?

Velocity of the pitches isn't an issue. You could use a tree trunk if you were able to anticipate the speed of the ball coming to the plate everytime. You can't use a bat that heavy today, because you'd be incapable of hitting anything offspeed, or vice versa.

 

One could just as easily make the argument that without today's advanced training regimines and dietary supplements and all that jazz that none of the modern players would be able to hold a candle to Ruth back then.

I don't dispute this. But I'm not sure the conclusion you're drawing. Is it that Ruth would be elevated to elite level status hitter in todays world if he had the same tools at his disposal? I just don't see it.

[OleMissCub]

You must have played in an extraordinary area for high school baseball, because I find that very very hard to believe. Most of the kids I faced when in high school were probably around 70 75 with maybe a few in confernce that could get into the 80's with a limited few in the entire area that could get it into the low 90's.

 

Very, very hard to believe? It shouldn't be. Low 80's was what we were used to. I played in Division 5A, which is the biggest division in high school in MS. We'd probably have 200 a year tryout for the team, so we had a deep talent pool, and I know it was that way at the other 5A schools across the state, and especially those we played against. Also, I think baseball as a high school sport is bigger down south as opposed to up north (I assume you are from around Illinois?) because of weather issues, etc.

 

Low 80's was about the norm, with a good bit able to get it to the mid 80's and a few able to get it to the 90's.

 

Point remains, if teenagers can throw in the 80's then I have no doubt that grown men could just 75 years ago. We haven't evolved that much.

[OleMissCub]

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

 

42 ounces, actually (still heavy as god knows).

 

But, do you really think pitchers in the 20's and 30's threw that much slower? When I was playing in high school, the average pitcher we faced was throwing in the low to mid 80's and the good ones could get it into the 90's. These are 16-17 year olds with no real conditioning and no real training. So, a 2008 teenager >>>>>>> 1925 grown man that is a professional athlete?

 

The well-known Ruth bat that hit the first Yankee stadium homer was 46 ounces. It was auctioned for $1.26 million back in 2004. I don't know if Ruth used a lighter bat at other times.

 

I'd heard the 46 ounce figure as well, but I got my figures from this:

 

http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/equip5.htm

[DiamondMind]

NSBB, the only forum where a topic can shift from the tigers' projected offensive prowess to the weight of the colossus of clouts bat

[imb]

grooooooooooooooan

[rocket]

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

 

42 ounces, actually (still heavy as god knows).

 

But, do you really think pitchers in the 20's and 30's threw that much slower? When I was playing in high school, the average pitcher we faced was throwing in the low to mid 80's and the good ones could get it into the 90's. These are 16-17 year olds with no real conditioning and no real training. So, a 2008 teenager >>>>>>> 1925 grown man that is a professional athlete?

 

i'll quote this from the baseball between the numbers book from baseball prospectus:

 

The 100-meter freestyle (swimming) is about the simplest of all athletic competitions: Jump in the pool and swim as fast as you can. Yet the winning time decreased by more than 40 percent in the 100 years between 1896 and 1996. When the 100-meter freestyle is held today in high school girls' regional swimming meets, it is generally won by a girl who swims the distance in just under 60 seconds. That time would have won the men's Olympic competition in 1920, or any year before it.

[imb]

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

 

42 ounces, actually (still heavy as god knows).

 

But, do you really think pitchers in the 20's and 30's threw that much slower? When I was playing in high school, the average pitcher we faced was throwing in the low to mid 80's and the good ones could get it into the 90's. These are 16-17 year olds with no real conditioning and no real training. So, a 2008 teenager >>>>>>> 1925 grown man that is a professional athlete?

 

i'll quote this from the baseball between the numbers book from baseball prospectus:

 

The 100-meter freestyle (swimming) is about the simplest of all athletic competitions: Jump in the pool and swim as fast as you can. Yet the winning time decreased by more than 40 percent in the 100 years between 1896 and 1996. When the 100-meter freestyle is held today in high school girls' regional swimming meets, it is generally won by a girl who swims the distance in just under 60 seconds. That time would have won the men's Olympic competition in 1920, or any year before it.

 

is that a louisiana 5a swim meet i think not sir

[OleMissCub]

 

i'll quote this from the baseball between the numbers book from baseball prospectus:

 

The 100-meter freestyle (swimming) is about the simplest of all athletic competitions: Jump in the pool and swim as fast as you can. Yet the winning time decreased by more than 40 percent in the 100 years between 1896 and 1996. When the 100-meter freestyle is held today in high school girls' regional swimming meets, it is generally won by a girl who swims the distance in just under 60 seconds. That time would have won the men's Olympic competition in 1920, or any year before it.

 

Swimming requires strength. There is no doubt we are bigger people these days, but strength has what to do with throwing a baseball? Roy Oswalt can throw a baseball 95mph and he's a shrimp.

[NonProfitCow]

You must have played in an extraordinary area for high school baseball, because I find that very very hard to believe. Most of the kids I faced when in high school were probably around 70 75 with maybe a few in confernce that could get into the 80's with a limited few in the entire area that could get it into the low 90's.

 

Very, very hard to believe? It shouldn't be. Low 80's was what we were used to. I played in Division 5A, which is the biggest division in high school in MS. We'd probably have 200 a year tryout for the team, so we had a deep talent pool, and I know it was that way at the other 5A schools across the state, and especially those we played against. Also, I think baseball as a high school sport is bigger down south as opposed to up north (I assume you are from around Illinois?) because of weather issues, etc.

 

Low 80's was about the norm, with a good bit able to get it to the mid 80's and a few able to get it to the 90's.

 

Point remains, if teenagers can throw in the 80's then I have no doubt that grown men could just 75 years ago. We haven't evolved that much.

 

Sorry man, but I also find that very very hard to believe. From my recollection everyone from my state (MO) that could touch 90 in HS was drafted. I was a flame thrower in HS in conference and state play and was only in the 80's. D-1 pitcher's rarely sit at 90. When I touched 92-93 in college I was not drafted but I was invited to Vero Beach with the Dodgers. That brings me to another story as to why I hate Latin American camps, but like I said, that's another story.

[OleMissCub]

Sorry man, but I also find that very very hard to believe. From my recollection everyone from my state (MO) that could touch 90 in HS was drafted. I was a flame thrower in HS in conference and state play and was only in the 80's. D-1 pitcher's rarely sit at 90. When I touched 92-93 in college I was not drafted but I was invited to Vero Beach with the Dodgers. That brings me to another story as to why I hate Latin American camps, but like I said, that's another story.

 

Believe what you want man, but that's what was what. Can't speak for the other schools, but we had 4 pitchers that were drafted, but they chose to stay in school. dewwweew my ambien is kickiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

[NonProfitCow]

Sorry man, but I also find that very very hard to believe. From my recollection everyone from my state (MO) that could touch 90 in HS was drafted. I was a flame thrower in HS in conference and state play and was only in the 80's. D-1 pitcher's rarely sit at 90. When I touched 92-93 in college I was not drafted but I was invited to Vero Beach with the Dodgers. That brings me to another story as to why I hate Latin American camps, but like I said, that's another story.

 

Believe what you want man, but that's what was what. Can't speak for the other schools, but we had 4 pitchers that were drafted, but they chose to stay in school. dewwweew my ambien is kickiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

 

Interesting. Your starting rotation +1 more pitcher in HS were drafted but they all decided to go to college? Did you go to HS at USC or Rice?

[TruffleShuffle]

the tigers will have a great year offensively because they have gary sheffield

 

[/joemorgan]

[OleMissCub]

Sorry man, but I also find that very very hard to believe. From my recollection everyone from my state (MO) that could touch 90 in HS was drafted. I was a flame thrower in HS in conference and state play and was only in the 80's. D-1 pitcher's rarely sit at 90. When I touched 92-93 in college I was not drafted but I was invited to Vero Beach with the Dodgers. That brings me to another story as to why I hate Latin American camps, but like I said, that's another story.

 

Believe what you want man, but that's what was what. Can't speak for the other schools, but we had 4 pitchers that were drafted, but they chose to stay in school. dewwweew my ambien is kickiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

 

Interesting. Your starting rotation +1 more pitcher in HS were drafted but they all decided to go to college? Did you go to HS at USC or Rice?

 

HAHA.

 

But seriously, those guys weren't all drafted the same year.

[imb]

I wonder what their names were?

[Derwood]

i would wager a guess that the high school kids of today eat better than the pros of the 20's, training or no training. the general quality of food is better, and a lot of the meat/milk/etc. they consume is from livestock full of growth hormones

[OleMissCub]

i would wager a guess that the high school kids of today eat better than the pros of the 20's, training or no training. the general quality of food is better, and a lot of the meat/milk/etc. they consume is from livestock full of growth hormones

 

There's absolutely zero doubt that people eat better now and are healthier.

 

Bill James did an interesting experiment once. He looked up the average size of each Champion team. To quote:

The players of today are taller and heavier than the players of earlier eras, not dramatically so, but there has been a consistent increase across the century. The smallest team I found was the 1906 Chicago Cubs, who won 116 games with an average player who was slightly taller than 5 foot 9 and a half, and weighed 174 pounds. The largest team was the 1989 Oakland A's, whose average regular was just short of 6 foot 2, and weighed 201. The 1976 Reds were only three pounds heavier on average than the 1939 Yankees, and only a fraction of an inch taller.

 

Henry Aaron, baseball's all time leading home run leader, was a hair short of six foot and weighed 173 pounds in his prime. Stan Musial was not a large man, Roberto Clemente wasn't, Pete Rose was not, Joe Morgan is very smell, Warren Spahn was certainly not large, Willie Mays was just average size. Paul Waner got 3,000 hits; he was 5'8 and weighed 153.

 

The quality of athletic performance in areas where it can be objectively measured, like track and field, has improved dramatically over time. The Olympic swimmers of the 1930's posted times which - this is literally true - would not win a high school girls' meet today. A 1940's weight lifter would be laughed out of the gymnasium in the 1990's. While athletic performance has improved so dramatically in other areas, people will argue, how can it possibly have failed to improve in baseball?

 

Well it may not be likely, but it is possible to make an argument to that effect. People have a tremendous ability to improve measured performance in a one-dimensional sport. Baseball is different. Baseball calls for a complex combination of many different skills, and performance levels can only be assessed over a period of weeks or months. That's very different. One skill might have moved forward, but another might have regressed.

[Chocolate Milk]

 

i'll quote this from the baseball between the numbers book from baseball prospectus:

 

The 100-meter freestyle (swimming) is about the simplest of all athletic competitions: Jump in the pool and swim as fast as you can. Yet the winning time decreased by more than 40 percent in the 100 years between 1896 and 1996. When the 100-meter freestyle is held today in high school girls' regional swimming meets, it is generally won by a girl who swims the distance in just under 60 seconds. That time would have won the men's Olympic competition in 1920, or any year before it.

 

Swimming requires strength. There is no doubt we are bigger people these days, but strength has what to do with throwing a baseball? Roy Oswalt can throw a baseball 95mph and he's a shrimp.

Why do you think pitchers take part in strength training regimens currently?

[Derwood]

i would wager a guess that the high school kids of today eat better than the pros of the 20's, training or no training. the general quality of food is better, and a lot of the meat/milk/etc. they consume is from livestock full of growth hormones

 

There's absolutely zero doubt that people eat better now and are healthier.

 

Bill James did an interesting experiment once. He looked up the average size of each Champion team. To quote:

The players of today are taller and heavier than the players of earlier eras, not dramatically so, but there has been a consistent increase across the century. The smallest team I found was the 1906 Chicago Cubs, who won 116 games with an average player who was slightly taller than 5 foot 9 and a half, and weighed 174 pounds. The largest team was the 1989 Oakland A's, whose average regular was just short of 6 foot 2, and weighed 201. The 1976 Reds were only three pounds heavier on average than the 1939 Yankees, and only a fraction of an inch taller.

 

Henry Aaron, baseball's all time leading home run leader, was a hair short of six foot and weighed 173 pounds in his prime. Stan Musial was not a large man, Roberto Clemente wasn't, Pete Rose was not, Joe Morgan is very smell, Warren Spahn was certainly not large, Willie Mays was just average size. Paul Waner got 3,000 hits; he was 5'8 and weighed 153.

 

The quality of athletic performance in areas where it can be objectively measured, like track and field, has improved dramatically over time. The Olympic swimmers of the 1930's posted times which - this is literally true - would not win a high school girls' meet today. A 1940's weight lifter would be laughed out of the gymnasium in the 1990's. While athletic performance has improved so dramatically in other areas, people will argue, how can it possibly have failed to improve in baseball?

 

Well it may not be likely, but it is possible to make an argument to that effect. People have a tremendous ability to improve measured performance in a one-dimensional sport. Baseball is different. Baseball calls for a complex combination of many different skills, and performance levels can only be assessed over a period of weeks or months. That's very different. One skill might have moved forward, but another might have regressed.

 

best Freudian slip ever

[OleMissCub]

Why do you think pitchers take part in strength training regimens currently?

 

To keep muscles toned and in shape. Bulk doesn't help you with pitching all that much. It's probably a bad thing.