Buster Onley: Santana will be traded during Spring Training

[Mizzou]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

Not to mention his sick strikeout to walk ratio.

[Mephistopheles]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

[Derwood]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

1. why?

2. why?

3. why?

 

how about his 4.96:1 K:BB ratio over the past 4 years?

[sneakypower]

The Twins wouldn't want the centerpiece to be a player who's arbitration eligible after this season. They'd be interested in Pie, but would take all the Ellsbury offers over him + w/e we offer easily.

I wasn't aware you had connections in the Twins front office who openly tell you how much they like players on other teams.

 

Pie sucks. Ellsbury doesn't. it's not rocket science

Your opinion. Twins scouts might disagree. But if you have weekly tea parties with them, I guess it's really not worth arguing.

[rawaction]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

[Mephistopheles]

The Twins wouldn't want the centerpiece to be a player who's arbitration eligible after this season. They'd be interested in Pie, but would take all the Ellsbury offers over him + w/e we offer easily.

I wasn't aware you had connections in the Twins front office who openly tell you how much they like players on other teams.

 

Pie sucks. Ellsbury doesn't. it's not rocket science

Your opinion. Twins scouts might disagree. But if you have weekly tea parties with them, I guess it's really not worth arguing.

 

Not true. Twin scouts thought Ben Revere was a first round talent. (no pun intended)

[Derwood]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

[RammyFanny]

The Twins wouldn't want the centerpiece to be a player who's arbitration eligible after this season. They'd be interested in Pie, but would take all the Ellsbury offers over him + w/e we offer easily.

I wasn't aware you had connections in the Twins front office who openly tell you how much they like players on other teams.

 

Pie sucks. Ellsbury doesn't. it's not rocket science

 

I still don't get why people think Ellsbury is anything special. Because he's fast?

 

I mean, neither Pie or Ellsbury can hit lefties, and Ellsbury had a whopping .741 OPS in AAA (360+ AB's).

[sneakypower]

The Twins wouldn't want the centerpiece to be a player who's arbitration eligible after this season. They'd be interested in Pie, but would take all the Ellsbury offers over him + w/e we offer easily.

I wasn't aware you had connections in the Twins front office who openly tell you how much they like players on other teams.

 

Pie sucks. Ellsbury doesn't. it's not rocket science

Your opinion. Twins scouts might disagree. But if you have weekly tea parties with them, I guess it's really not worth arguing.

 

Not true. Twin scouts thought Ben Revere was a first round talent. (no pun intended)

Signability. What they've done over there has worked pretty well for them the past decade. You said Theriot = Derosa. That nullifies every evaluation you make henceforth?

[Mephistopheles]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

[Derwood]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

 

oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try:

 

Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win!

[Mephistopheles]

The Twins wouldn't want the centerpiece to be a player who's arbitration eligible after this season. They'd be interested in Pie, but would take all the Ellsbury offers over him + w/e we offer easily.

I wasn't aware you had connections in the Twins front office who openly tell you how much they like players on other teams.

 

Pie sucks. Ellsbury doesn't. it's not rocket science

Your opinion. Twins scouts might disagree. But if you have weekly tea parties with them, I guess it's really not worth arguing.

 

Not true. Twin scouts thought Ben Revere was a first round talent. (no pun intended)

Signability. What they've done over there has worked pretty well for them the past decade. You said Theriot = Derosa. That nullifies every evaluation you make henceforth?

 

1. Sure that has something to do with it, but the scouts still had to think he was a first round talent in order to make them select him.

2. I didn't say Theriot's = DeRosa. When have I ever been nice to Theriot? DeRosa will probaby fall apart this season, but Theriot already in shambles.

3. Keep making things up. It's the only argument you're good at.

[Mephistopheles]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

 

oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try:

 

Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win!

 

But I don't care about ERA+, so you don't win.

[Mephistopheles]

The Twins wouldn't want the centerpiece to be a player who's arbitration eligible after this season. They'd be interested in Pie, but would take all the Ellsbury offers over him + w/e we offer easily.

I wasn't aware you had connections in the Twins front office who openly tell you how much they like players on other teams.

 

Pie sucks. Ellsbury doesn't. it's not rocket science

 

I still don't get why people think Ellsbury is anything special. Because he's fast?

 

I mean, neither Pie or Ellsbury can hit lefties, and Ellsbury had a whopping .741 OPS in AAA (360+ AB's).

 

I didn't say Ellsbury was special. I said they would like him more than Pie. It's no secret they're all over his ass. That was the point of the Revere comment..... which of course Cro Magnon did not understand. He had to look up Ben Revere on the Internet before answering the question, of course.

[Derwood]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

 

oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try:

 

Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win!

 

But I don't care about ERA+, so you don't win.

 

because it hurts your argument

[Mephistopheles]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

 

oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try:

 

Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win!

 

But I don't care about ERA+, so you don't win.

 

because it hurts your argument

 

correlation doesn't mean causation.

[rawaction]

This is funny. You constantly make statements and refuse to defend them. Instead you go picking on Cro for not following the circle that is your argument.

[sneakypower]

1. Sure that has something to do with it, but the scouts still had to think he was a first round talent in order to make them select him.

2. I didn't say Theriot's = DeRosa. When have I ever been nice to Theriot? DeRosa will probaby fall apart this season, but Theriot already in shambles.

3. Keep making things up. It's the only argument you're good at.

1. catcher with [expletive] - you can do this for any team. it's a stupid argument.

2-3.

the Cubs signed Mark DeRosa to a three year contract worth $13 million to play second for us. This is a move I could defend if he was going to platoon with Jacque Jones in right and be a super utility player, but we've got a similar player that costs $300,000 in Ryan Theriot.

I didn't say Ellsbury was special. I said they would like him more than Pie. It's no secret they're all over his ass. That was the point of the Revere comment..... which of course Cro Magnon did not understand. He had to look up Ben Revere on the Internet before answering the question, of course.

You got me, I don't know anything about baseball...

Edited January 27, 2008 by sneakypower

[Mephistopheles]

This is funny. You constantly make statements and refuse to defend them. Instead you go picking on Cro for not following the circle that is your argument.

 

I have an argument, as always. Give me a few minutes to make up the argument, *cough*.

[CubColtPacer]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

 

oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try:

 

Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win!

 

But I don't care about ERA+, so you don't win.

 

because it hurts your argument

 

correlation doesn't mean causation.

 

Ok, you're correct on that. Past ERA+ numbers are not necessarily the best indicators of future performance.

 

With that said, what are your reasons for believing that Peavy will have better ERA+ numbers than Santana over the next 5 years? What are the factors that haven't come in to play yet that will make Peavy have better performance? What is predicting that change in performance?

 

Edit: I see your last post now, and will wait for your argument.

Edited January 27, 2008 by CubColtPacer

[nilodnayr]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

 

oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try:

 

Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win!

 

But I don't care about ERA+, so you don't win.

 

because it hurts your argument

 

No, because ERA is a bad way to predict future ERA. And to address the +, park factors usually suck.

[Derwood]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

 

oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try:

 

Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win!

 

But I don't care about ERA+, so you don't win.

 

because it hurts your argument

 

No, because ERA is a bad way to predict future ERA. And to address the +, park factors usually suck.

 

fine, my guess is that Santana's predictive stats are also better than Peavy's

[Mephistopheles]

1. Sure that has something to do with it, but the scouts still had to think he was a first round talent in order to make them select him.

2. I didn't say Theriot's = DeRosa. When have I ever been nice to Theriot? DeRosa will probaby fall apart this season, but Theriot already in shambles.

3. Keep making things up. It's the only argument you're good at.

1. catcher with [expletive] - you can do this for any team. it's a stupid argument.

2-3.

the Cubs signed Mark DeRosa to a three year contract worth $13 million to play second for us. This is a move I could defend if he was going to platoon with Jacque Jones in right and be a super utility player, but we've got a similar player that costs $300,000 in Ryan Theriot.

I didn't say Ellsbury was special. I said they would like him more than Pie. It's no secret they're all over his ass. That was the point of the Revere comment..... which of course Cro Magnon did not understand. He had to look up Ben Revere on the Internet before answering the question, of course.

You got me, I don't know anything about baseball...

 

Similar means equal? I obviously meant the money was better use elsewhere. Of course had I known DeRosa would hit .280/.370/.430 or w/e he hit do you think I would have thought that? The point is that there was little reason to believe that his 06 was anything more than an outlier. Now that he's done it twice, there's a lot more reason to believe it's something he can do. At the time he looked like a .280/.330/.400 player, at best (give or take). Theriot is and still looks like a .280/.340/.360 player. Similar wasn't that bad of a word to use there.

 

The real question here is how the hell do you even know that? People read my blog? YOU SECRETLY LOVE ME I TAKE EVERYTHING BACK AND WILL HAVE SEX WITH YOU.

Edited January 27, 2008 by Mephistopheles

[Mephistopheles]

Santana, last four years:

 

182 ERA+, 0.921 WHIP, 228 IP

155 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, 231.2 IP

161 ERA+, 0.997 WHIP, 233.2 IP

130 ERA+, 1.073 WHIP, 219 IP

 

no one can touch that

 

1. I don't care about ERA.

2. I don't care too much about WHIP.

3. The last column actually hurts your case.

 

I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball.

 

ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year

 

You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP

 

oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try:

 

Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win!

 

But I don't care about ERA+, so you don't win.

 

because it hurts your argument

 

correlation doesn't mean causation.

 

Ok, you're correct on that. Past ERA+ numbers are not necessarily the best indicators of future performance.

 

With that said, what are your reasons for believing that Peavy will have better ERA+ numbers than Santana over the next 5 years? What are the factors that haven't come in to play yet that will make Peavy have better performance? What is predicting that change in performance?

 

Edit: I see your last post now, and will wait for your argument.

 

You missed my point, understandably i can see how you infer that. Correlation (ie the fact that my distaste for ERA and the fact that it hurts my argument as well) does not mean causation (the fact that it hurts my argument causes me to hate ERA).

[sneakypower]

I don't think you know anything though, so of course you got me. Similar means equal? I obviously meant the money was better use elsewhere. Of course had I known DeRosa would hit .280/.370/.430 or w/e he hit do you think I would have thought that? The point is that there was little reason to believe that his 06 was anything more than an outlier. Now that he's done it twice, there's a lot more reason to believe it's something he can do. At the time he looked like a .280/.330/.400 player, at best (give or take). Theriot is and still looks like a .280/.340/.360 player. Similar wasn't that bad of a word to use there.

Oh, ok. "When he does it a few times, I'll be able to predict he'll keep doing it." Clever. Very maverick. Thinking outside of the box, I like it.

 

The real question here is how the hell do you even know that? People read my blog? YOU SECRETLY LOVE ME I TAKE EVERYTHING BACK AND WILL HAVE SEX WITH YOU.

Yeah, I know how weird is that, that I would read a Cubs blog? That would be like going on a message board to read opinions from other fans of the same team. Kinda creepy, I know. But seriously, you were pimping it in your power rankings thread.

 

Dammit Jim, you really did not listen to me. It was not a very good signing. The Cubs could have spent just as much money as they did for Soriano and Mark DeRosa and signed Julio Lugo and Ray Durham. They would have gotten about twice as much of an increase in runs that way. But oh well.

Eeeek.