Undeserving HOFers

[shnsajax]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

[rocket]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

[CubinNY]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

[Clem Fandango]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

As a kid in the late 80's/early 90's I knew about Ozzie Smith for one simple reason:

 

He did back flips

[OleMissCub]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

He's got a WARP3 of 139.1. The only SS with higher WARP3's in the HOF are Wagner(210.7) & Ripken (169.3). Banks' is at 123.4. I think Ozzie truly is a person who drove in runs with his glove....those win shares had to come from somewhere, because they certainly didn't come from his bat.

[cheapseats]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

No. If anything, he's underrated now due to contemporary emphasis on SS offense.

[rocket]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

He's got a WARP3 of 139.1. The only SS with higher WARP3's in the HOF are Wagner(210.7) & Ripken (169.3). Banks' is at 123.4. I think Ozzie truly is a person who drove in runs with his glove....those win shares had to come from somewhere, because they certainly didn't come from his bat.

 

where do you find a list that sorts warp3 all time? the only way i've found warp 3 is by looking up each player individually on baseball prospectus.

[OleMissCub]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

He's got a WARP3 of 139.1. The only SS with higher WARP3's in the HOF are Wagner(210.7) & Ripken (169.3). Banks' is at 123.4. I think Ozzie truly is a person who drove in runs with his glove....those win shares had to come from somewhere, because they certainly didn't come from his bat.

 

where do you find a list that sorts warp3 all time? the only way i've found warp 3 is by looking up each player individually on baseball prospectus.

 

Just looked up all the SS's that are in the HOF via baseball prospectus.

[CubinNY]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

No. If anything, he's underrated now due to contemporary emphasis on SS offense.

In what way is he underrated?

 

What about that line is HOF worthy?

.262 .337 .328 (2,460 hits)

 

his .978 FP doesn't strike me as all that spectacular. He played with a lot of flash in an era of non-flashy players.

[rocket]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

No. If anything, he's underrated now due to contemporary emphasis on SS offense.

In what way is he underrated?

 

What about that line is HOF worthy?

.262 .337 .328 (2,460 hits)

 

his .978 FP doesn't strike me as all that spectacular. He played with a lot of flash in an era of non-flashy players.

 

you should know better than to use fielding percentage. come on.

 

average career hitter (and actually a productive hitter for his position when he was in his early to mid 30's) + what amounts to AMAZING defense at one of the most important defensive positions in baseball, i have no problem with ozzie being a hall of famer.

[OleMissCub]

Obviously their era's are different and that factors in hugely, but check out how eerily similar Ozzie and Vizquel's stats are:

 

Omar Vizquel (19 seasons): 9479 AB's, .274/.340/.357, 2598 hits, 77 HR, 416 2B, 71 3B, 869 RBI, 1337 Runs, 380 SB, .984 FP%, 108 WARP3

 

Ozzie Smith (19 seasons): 9396 AB's, .262/.337/.328, 2460 hits, 28 HR, 402 2B, 69 3B, 793 RBI, 1257 runs, 580 SB, .978 FP%, 139 WARP3

[CubinNY]

Ozzie Smith, and I don't give a damn how good his defense was.

 

wrong.

No, you're wrong. He's lucky he played in the era of the all glove, no hit SS. He's probably one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

No. If anything, he's underrated now due to contemporary emphasis on SS offense.

In what way is he underrated?

 

What about that line is HOF worthy?

.262 .337 .328 (2,460 hits)

 

his .978 FP doesn't strike me as all that spectacular. He played with a lot of flash in an era of non-flashy players.

 

you should know better than to use fielding percentage. come on.

 

average career hitter (and actually a productive hitter for his position when he was in his early to mid 30's) + what amounts to AMAZING defense at one of the most important defensive positions in baseball, i have no problem with ozzie being a hall of famer.

Find a defensive metric that is acceptable. FP for a SS is, in my opinion, more valid than for other positions.

 

Whatever, he's in so the point is moot.

[SouthSideRyan]

Find a defensive metric that is acceptable. FP for a SS is, in my opinion, more valid than for other positions.

 

Whatever, he's in so the point is moot.

 

Why is FP more valid for a SS, the position in which range is most important? And a 978 FP for a SS is pretty great.

Edited January 14, 2008 by SouthSideRyan

[shnsajax]

Obviously their era's are different and that factors in hugely, but check out how eerily similar Ozzie and Vizquel's stats are:

 

Omar Vizquel (19 seasons): 9479 AB's, .274/.340/.357, 2598 hits, 77 HR, 416 2B, 71 3B, 869 RBI, 1337 Runs, 380 SB, .984 FP%, 108 WARP3

 

Ozzie Smith (19 seasons): 9396 AB's, .262/.337/.328, 2460 hits, 28 HR, 402 2B, 69 3B, 793 RBI, 1257 runs, 580 SB, .978 FP%, 139 WARP3

 

Is Omar even an automatic "In" nowadays? If so many years will it take?

[Derwood]

vizquel's offensive numbers are as much a result of longevity as being particularly good

[SouthSideRyan]

vizquel's offensive numbers are as much a result of longevity as being particularly good

 

Being decent for a long period of time does have value. Whether Vizquel could be considered a decent hitter for that time is up for debate I guess.

[OleMissCub]

Obviously their era's are different and that factors in hugely, but check out how eerily similar Ozzie and Vizquel's stats are:

 

Omar Vizquel (19 seasons): 9479 AB's, .274/.340/.357, 2598 hits, 77 HR, 416 2B, 71 3B, 869 RBI, 1337 Runs, 380 SB, .984 FP%, 108 WARP3

 

Ozzie Smith (19 seasons): 9396 AB's, .262/.337/.328, 2460 hits, 28 HR, 402 2B, 69 3B, 793 RBI, 1257 runs, 580 SB, .978 FP%, 139 WARP3

 

Is Omar even an automatic "In" nowadays? If so many years will it take?

 

I don't think Vizquel is a HOFer , nor do I think he will get in. Definitely not an automatic.

[Derwood]

vizquel's offensive numbers are as much a result of longevity as being particularly good

 

Being decent for a long period of time does have value. Whether Vizquel could be considered a decent hitter for that time is up for debate I guess.

 

i have a tough time using 3000 hits (for example) as a standard for induction if it took the player 22 years and 10,000 at bats to get there

[OleMissCub]

To me, a HOFer needs to have several peak years where he was the best or near the best at his position, and he needs to have longevity as well. A combination of those two things is necessary in my opinion. Dale Murphy is an example of someone who peaked but didn't have longevity He was outstanding for a few years then became crap. Look at Harold Baines on the other end of the spectrum. He had the longevity necessary to rack up a ton of hits, but never was a peak player (only finished in the top 10 in MVP voting twice).

[woodchip2153]

vizquel's offensive numbers are as much a result of longevity as being particularly good

 

Being decent for a long period of time does have value. Whether Vizquel could be considered a decent hitter for that time is up for debate I guess.

 

i have a tough time using 3000 hits (for example) as a standard for induction if it took the player 22 years and 10,000 at bats to get there

 

that's still a .300 batting average.

[bukie]

Bruce Sutter

Kirby Puckett

Tony Perez

 

EDIT: And, just because...Joe Tinker, Johnny Evers, Frank Chance.

[OleMissCub]

Kirby Puckett

 

Kirby's career line was .318/.360/.477. Plus, he finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 7 of his 12 seasons, led his team to 2 World Series titles, was a 10 time all-star, and was a gold glove caliber defensive center fielder. He was also well on his way to 3000 hits, and was showing no signs of slowing down when his career abruptly ended due to injury.

 

He's definitely a hall of famer in my eyes.

Edited January 15, 2008 by OleMissCub

[Derwood]

vizquel's offensive numbers are as much a result of longevity as being particularly good

 

Being decent for a long period of time does have value. Whether Vizquel could be considered a decent hitter for that time is up for debate I guess.

 

i have a tough time using 3000 hits (for example) as a standard for induction if it took the player 22 years and 10,000 at bats to get there

 

that's still a .300 batting average.

 

true, but why is 3000/10,000 somehow better than 2,500/8,333?

[BWcubs21]

Bruce Sutter

Kirby Puckett

Tony Perez

 

EDIT: And, just because...Joe Tinker, Johnny Evers, Frank Chance.

 

Kirby Puckett??? How is he undeserving?

[TruffleShuffle]

according to bill james' win shares book, ozzie smith's teams, in his career, had 500 more assists by shortstops than expectation. that's a lot.

 

add to that the fact that he had a good obp in the prime of his career, walked nearly twice as much as he struck out, was an outstanding baserunner and base stealer, and also was very proficient in bunting, and he's a hall of famer. not even close, really. judging a player like ozzie smith by ops alone is very myopic.