Bruce Levine reports: Eric Patterson will be recalled

[davearm]

I can't believe I missed the "can't possibly be worse" quip. How perfectly symptomatic of the completely unrealistic expectations some folks have for these young players.

 

It's much more than just possible. In some cases, it's probable.

 

Based on what? That's what people are waiting for. It's not enough to assume that rookies will automatically suck when comapred to "proven, older players". You have to actually have a basis for your argument.

 

So what do you base it on? Limited ML sample sizes, or large minor league samples and skillsets, when comapred to the players they'd be replacing?

LOL.

 

You're the one making assumptions here, with such definitive assertions as the young guys "can't possibly be worse" than the vets.

 

So it's an impossibility, huh?

 

What the heck is *that* based on, is what I'd like to know.

 

Now as for me, I'm not assuming that all rookies will automatically suck.

 

I'm looking at what these specific players have done so far in their bigleague careers, and reaching the conclusion that despite their upside, there's a strong chance that they'll underperform the established vets with known track records that are in those jobs now.

 

I listed the relevant OPS stats that contributed to this opinion. I'd be happy to repost them if you missed them the first time.

[soapy]

My goodness, imagine a bigleague team of:

 

Kline C

Choi/Dopirak 1B

Hill 2B

Montanez SS

Kelton/Orie 3B

Jackson/Kieshnick LF

Patterson CF

Harvey RF

 

You'd lose 130 games with that lineup.

 

Except that nobody here has or would suggest such a lineup.

 

But please, continue with you obscene rantings and ignore the real discussion happening here.

Are you kidding me?

 

I'm dead serious: you're questioning the fact that many folks here are openly and loudly lobbying for Soto, Murton, Cedeno, Pie, etc. etc. to be starters on the Cubs?

 

Where the heck have you been if you've missed this development?

 

If everyone in the "just play the kids" crowd had their wish, we'd trot out a lineup very much like the one I showed above. The only difference is that DLee and ARam would be in the middle of it, surrounded by 5 rookies and Murton. Here's how it would look:

 

Patterson LF

Theriot SS

Lee 1B

Ramirez 3B

Murton RF

Soto C

Pie CF

Cedeno 2B

 

We'd get smoked with that team, in all likelihood.

 

You are seriously mis-informed if you think people here want Lee and Ramirez surrounded by five rookies and Murton.

 

First of all, I have seen almost nobody "clamor" for Patterson. I've seen a few here say, if he's here, he might as well play. That's the extent of it. My feelings are, Murton should be in LF.

Most people think Theriot is "acceptable" as a SS if he's surrounded by offensive production elsewhere. He's nothing special. Probably average at best. Very little "clamoring".

People have been asking for Soto because the Cubs are getting absolutely nothing from C until Kendall's recent "surge". If he can keep it up, fine. But Soto should be up in place of Hill, and be used if/when Kendall starts struggling again.

I've seen maybe (maybe) one person suggest that Cedeno start at 2B. I certainly don't agree with that. He should probably Theriot's backup and get some time there if Theriot starts to struggle again.

 

Most importantly, I don't think anyone is clamoring for all of these things to happen at once, which is how you are generalizing it. If you would actually pay attention at all, you'd see that most (not all) think a few young guys should be worked in because a) they are likely to be as productive offensively as the person currently in front of them; b) they play better defense; c) they provide more flexibility financially; or d) all of the above.

[davearm]

Oh please.

 

You honestly expect me to believe that somebody is going to stand up and say "Pie should not be starting in CF, it should be Jones instead?" Or "Soto really does belong at AAA, stick with Kendall back there?"

 

The fact is that there will be folks complaining so long as Jones, Floyd, Pagan, Kendall, K Hill, and now, seemingly, Fontenot, are in the lineup. DeRosa's got one foot in the doghouse these days too.

 

But you'd hear hardly a peep of complaining or second-guessing if every last one of those guys was benched in favor of the lineup I showed above. Plenty of people would be thrilled, though -- for the first week at least.

 

You've apparently made up your mind about what other people think, so I can't convince you. You're completely wrong though.

You didn't answer my question.

 

Do you see it as realistic to expect any meaningful segment of this board to lobby for Jones over Pie in CF, or Kendall over Soto at C (to name just two)?

 

Are those plausible scenarios to you?

 

Of course. Have you read the threads about them? There's plenty of people who think Kendall's OBP over the rest of the season will outweigh his power and defense disadvantage v. Soto, and there's people who think that Pie still needs to work on his plate discipline in AAA. For example, Truffle is the biggest proponent of Soto around and he wants Pie to stay in AAA.

Fair enough. My feeling is that the folks that hold those opinions would constitute a distinct minority around here, enough so that those opinions are virtually completely drowned out by the sheer ubiquity of the "grass is greener" majority.

[soapy]

My feeling is that the folks that hold those opinions would constitute a distinct minority around here, enough so that those opinions are virtually completely drowned out by the sheer ubiquity of the "grass is greener" majority.

The reaction you've gotten in this thread alone should show you that this isn't true.

[davearm]

You like to complain about others point of view...what's yours? That the lineup that Lou puts out there every day is the right decision every time? Because he's a baseball guy and therefore knows what he's doing? If we get to the end of the season and we don't make the playoffs, does that mean he still knew what he was doing? You're ok with Floyd swinging and flailing at 3 pitches in a clutch situation? Calling up Patterson instead of Pie doesn't bother you? Rather than pointing out what's wrong, why don't you tell us what's right?

My point of view is that Piniella knows more about this stuff than anyone here does. The guy's managerial track record speaks for itself.

 

That's not to say that he's perfect, or that he makes the right choice 100% of the time.

 

Regardless, whether the Cubs make the playoffs or not will neither prove nor disprove this perspective. The Cubs could win despite Lou's ineptitude, or lose despite his brilliance.

 

Calling up Patterson instead of Pie doesn't bother me, no. Soriano is a LF and a leadoff hitter. Pie is neither. Patterson is the latter, and at least tries to be the former.

 

I had no problem with Floyd facing a righty last night, either (if that's what you're referring to). That certainly seemed like the right choice for that situation, regardless of how it turned out.

[Drew Doughty]

we have 2 left fielders playing out of position in right, and we have a right fielder playing out of position in center. and we have a rover on the bench who is average at best at all 3 positions.

 

pie wouldn't have any trouble finding a position.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Drew Doughty

[jersey cubs fan]

Calling up Patterson instead of Pie doesn't bother me, no. Soriano is a LF and a leadoff hitter. Pie is neither. Patterson is the latter, and at least tries to be the former.

 

Oh my freaking lord this drives me nuts. Leadoff hitter is not a position. There is no requirement about what player can hit there. You don't call up a leadoff hitter when your LF goes down, you call up a LF.

 

 

Furthermore, Pie would be 100 times the LF Patterson is.

[Banedon]

Calling up Patterson instead of Pie doesn't bother me, no. Soriano is a LF and a leadoff hitter. Pie is neither. Patterson is the latter, and at least tries to be the former.

 

Unfortunately neither position in the field or the batting order matter in this case. Theriot, IMO, should be leading off even when Soriano is playing. He's much better at getting on base anyway. And there are enough other outfielders that can play LF that Pie can play CF. So frankly those reasons don't really work for me.

[davearm]

Calling up Patterson instead of Pie doesn't bother me, no. Soriano is a LF and a leadoff hitter. Pie is neither. Patterson is the latter, and at least tries to be the former.

 

Unfortunately neither position in the field or the batting order matter in this case. Theriot, IMO, should be leading off even when Soriano is playing. He's much better at getting on base anyway. And there are enough other outfielders that can play LF that Pie can play CF. So frankly those reasons don't really work for me.

You asked me to give my point of view, not your point of view.

[Tracer Bullet]

we have 2 left fielders playing out of position in right, and we have a right fielder playing out of position in center. and we have a rover on the bench who is average at best at all 3 positions.

 

pie wouldn't have any trouble finding a position.

 

Our strategy appears to be: fill the lineup with as many left fielders and second basemen as humanly possible. But we're contending in the division, so it must be a good strategy...

[CubColtPacer]

 

I don't know why you put Cedeno in the second lineup and DeRosa in the first one-it would seem to be the other way around (all the other veterans per se are in the second lineup).

 

As for can't possibly be worse, yes they most certainly can. Jones was having his worst year at the plate before the last month, and Pie was still worse than him. He could be better, but there is a chance that you see that .270 OBP which would kill the Cubs at this point. Soto can definitely be worse than Kendall because Soto has no guarantee of getting on base (and his very limited major league time has been lousy).

As for Murton-Pagan, I would agree with that completely, but the Cubs don't usually put Pagan anywhere but center. The same with Cedeno and DeRosa-DeRosa's the much better option.

 

I was literally just tossing two lineups together. I didn't much think about who played where.

 

A couple points: It's hard to accept people diminishing Soto's ability to at least be equal to Kendall offensively based on major league performances. He doesn't have a big enough sample to draw conclusions. What he does have are stellar PCL numbers that seem to indicate that though he's in a hitters league, he's performing at a high clip even accounting for that. Given that he's also likely much better than Kendall defensively, I see no reason not to give him an extended look. It would be tricky for him to underperform Kendall's 2007 numbers to date.

 

As far as Pie/Jones+Pagan, it's a matter of if you believe Pie simply needs time to adjust to ML hitting. I do believe this. I think what he brings to the table defensively and his potential offensive output are enough for me to not care about the "security" Jones and Pagan bring with their abysmal 2007 numbers.

 

DeRosa is the better option, but he needs some rest soon. He seems to be wearing down.

 

If it were up to me, while Soriano's out we would run Murton in LF and Pie in CF, with Jones in RF. Floyd looks completely awful and Pagan is no everyday player. I'd at the least replace Hill with Soto, although I'd like to replace Kendall with Soto. I'd have Cedeno and Fontenot split time at 2B for a week or so for DeRosa to get a breather.

 

I'd line up like:

 

Theriot

Murton

Lee

Ramirez

Jones

Fontenot

Pie

Soto

 

It's not ideal. It's not particularly good. However, I do think it's better that what's being tossed out there right now, because what's being put out there right now is being put out there based on career numbers that peaked 6 years ago.

 

Yeah, if it were me I'd bring Soto up today to replace Kendall. I'd then start playing Kendall 3 games and Soto 2 games through the rotation (since they are both big question marks-which Kendall is the real one, the one in Oakland or the one in Chicago? Which Soto is the real one)? After 3-4 turns through the rotation, they would either remain sharing time like that, or if one is hitting much better then the other one that one should get the time.

 

As for Pie, I really believe that Jones has turned a corner. I think they had him change to a shorter swing that allows him to have a higher average (although takes some of his power out of play). His walks are up, his strikeouts are down (9 walks and 7 strikeouts in his last 77 at-bats, that's very good for a guy like Jacque).

 

I also think Pie just needs time against ML pitching to adjust. If it were me, I would have given him that time earlier in the year. At this point though, I feel that by the time he adjusts he will end up hurting the Cubs offensively. I'd keep Pie down for now, and then bring him up a couple days before September starts (I think Pie could be a very useful bench player on the post season roster and so would like to see him brought up before September 1st). I'd trade Jones after the season, and then install Pie as the primary CF and continue to play him through slumps (although I might platoon him-I'm not sure Pie will ever be good enough to play against left-handers).

 

As for DeRosa, I'd definitely start giving him more days off.

[Banedon]

Calling up Patterson instead of Pie doesn't bother me, no. Soriano is a LF and a leadoff hitter. Pie is neither. Patterson is the latter, and at least tries to be the former.

 

Unfortunately neither position in the field or the batting order matter in this case. Theriot, IMO, should be leading off even when Soriano is playing. He's much better at getting on base anyway. And there are enough other outfielders that can play LF that Pie can play CF. So frankly those reasons don't really work for me.

You asked me to give my point of view, not your point of view.

 

Thanks for clarifying. You did so, and then I provided mine. That's the way "discussion" works.