Mike Fontenot

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I happen to follow the Cubs quite often so the idea that what I see isn't good enough is retorical.

Are you implying that I have bad eyesight?

 

He's implying that you are a human being. As such, it's impossible to properly weigh what we see accurately like you are claiming.

 

And to clarify Brinoch's point since he didn't want to expend the energy: Theriot has tried to steal 23 times this year, Reyes has tried to steal 64 times this year. If Theriot attempted that many steals, don't you think more attention would be paid to him, no matter what the "attention level" he is already getting is?

[Skyballer]

I'm done with you.

Yay, he gives up :!:

 

Because there's nothing to respond to. You rarely answer any direct points and you pull "facts" out of thin air and refuse to budge on them even when shown to be mistaken or wrong. It's like debating with a brick wall.

No that's like arguing with brinoch, who suggests that theriot would be caught more often if he attempted more often. And the only thing he uses to suggest his theory is that pitcher's would pay more attention.

I've seen Riot run the bases and there are very frequent pick-off attempts and I don't think anyone would argue that.

brinoch on the other hand still can't support his argument, so he simply quits. :D

 

The crux of your argument seems to entail what you actually see.

 

You can't see everything.

 

Your argument is severely flawed.

I happen to follow the Cubs quite often so the idea that what I see isn't good enough is retorical.

Are you implying that I have bad eyesight?

 

No, I'm flat out saying that your eyes can't show you everything pertaining to a player's numbers and abilities short of you seeing every game and every play and having multiple angles and reviewing tools to do so, and even then you're still going to get things wrong.

I see every game broadcst on WGN, ESPN and FOX.

I watch the whole game and every time I see Riot or Fontenot on base, pickoff atempts are frequent, and this is just an idea but I doubt pitchers only pay attention on games that I see.

[wolf stansson]

I'm done with you.

Yay, he gives up :!:

 

Because there's nothing to respond to. You rarely answer any direct points and you pull "facts" out of thin air and refuse to budge on them even when shown to be mistaken or wrong. It's like debating with a brick wall.

No that's like arguing with brinoch, who suggests that theriot would be caught more often if he attempted more often. And the only thing he uses to suggest his theory is that pitcher's would pay more attention.

I've seen Riot run the bases and there are very frequent pick-off attempts and I don't think anyone would argue that.

brinoch on the other hand still can't support his argument, so he simply quits. :D

 

The crux of your argument seems to entail what you actually see.

 

You can't see everything.

 

Your argument is severely flawed.

I happen to follow the Cubs quite often so the idea that what I see isn't good enough is retorical.

Are you implying that I have bad eyesight?

 

No, I'm flat out saying that your eyes can't show you everything pertaining to a player's numbers and abilities short of you seeing every game and every play and having multiple angles and reviewing tools to do so, and even then you're still going to get things wrong.

I see every game broadcst on WGN, ESPN and FOX.

I watch the whole game and every time I see Riot or Fontenot on base, pickoff atempts are frequent, and this is just an idea but I doubt pitchers only pay attention on games that I see.

 

Wow.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I love the unintentional humor this thread has provided

[Skyballer]

I happen to follow the Cubs quite often so the idea that what I see isn't good enough is retorical.

Are you implying that I have bad eyesight?

 

He's implying that you are a human being. As such, it's impossible to properly weigh what we see accurately like you are claiming.

 

And to clarify Brinoch's point since he didn't want to expend the energy: Theriot has tried to steal 23 times this year, Reyes has tried to steal 64 times this year. If Theriot attempted that many steals, don't you think more attention would be paid to him, no matter what the "attention level" he is already getting is?

Yes but the diff. would be minimal seeing as how Reyes steals at times when the pitcher's simply don't care.

Again, I've seen it with my own eyes. Riot steals when it actually makes a difference, hence the pither will pay lots of attention to Riot.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Okay, I quit now too.

[Sammy Sofa]

STOP BRINGING UP WHAT YOU SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES AS IF IT SOMEHOW TRUMPS ALL OTHER BASEBALL ANALYSIS.

[Skyballer]

Okay, I quit now too.

Wow, truely shocking.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm done with you.

Yay, he gives up :!:

 

Because there's nothing to respond to. You rarely answer any direct points and you pull "facts" out of thin air and refuse to budge on them even when shown to be mistaken or wrong. It's like debating with a brick wall.

No that's like arguing with brinoch, who suggests that theriot would be caught more often if he attempted more often. And the only thing he uses to suggest his theory is that pitcher's would pay more attention.

I've seen Riot run the bases and there are very frequent pick-off attempts and I don't think anyone would argue that.

brinoch on the other hand still can't support his argument, so he simply quits. :D

 

While we don't know whether Theriot would be caught more if he attempted more (though I believe that to be true), we also don't know the other side either...that he wouldn't be caught more. So, when evaluating Theriot, we just can't add mythical steals that haven't happened.

 

If or when he proves he can steal at the level of Reyes, then we can credit it to him. Until then, when evaluating Theriot we have to take what we have. As it is, he's not anywhere near Reyes in terms of value.

[Skyballer]

STOP BRINGING UP WHAT YOU SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES AS IF IT SOMEHOW TRUMPS ALL OTHER BASEBALL ANALYSIS.

Well then why don't you show us some numbers mr. mojo risin'

[jersey cubs fan]

insert rhetorical comment here

[Sammy Sofa]

Whatever. I'm Audi 5000, babe.

[SouthSideRyan]

Murtonfan, it's simple logic. Theriot steals bases at times when it's easiest. If he were to force in 40+ more attempts, he would be running at times that are suboptimal conditions for stealing bases, thus he would get caught more. You can't simply take every player with over 15 SBs(or whatever arbitrary endpoint you want to use) and say, man if only he tried to steal every time he was on base, he'd be even more valuable.

 

Stolen bases are a risk/reward thing, and you run when there is the least risk. You want him to run when there's more risk of being thrown out,(be it a pitcher better at holding runners, a catcher better at throwing them out, or for whatever reason when he can't get a good jump) while assuming that he'd keep up the same pace he is now.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

OH NOES! NOW SSR IZ GOIN TO SKOOL

[seanimal]

I love when this happens, everytime.

[Skyballer]

Murtonfan, it's simple logic. Theriot steals bases at times when it's easiest. If he were to force in 40+ more attempts, he would be running at times that are suboptimal conditions for stealing bases, thus he would get caught more. You can't simply take every player with over 15 SBs(or whatever arbitrary endpoint you want to use) and say, man if only he tried to steal every time he was on base, he'd be even more valuable.

 

Stolen bases are a risk/reward thing, and you run when there is the least risk. You want him to run when there's more risk of being thrown out,(be it a pitcher better at holding runners, a catcher better at throwing them out, or for whatever reason when he can't get a good jump) while assuming that he'd keep up the same pace he is now.

You may be right but I fail to see how doing it when he does it is easy.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think it's time for someone to just admit he's kidding.

[Banedon]

There are some very very bad arguments being presented in this thread.

[VanceJergins]

I think it's time for someone to just admit he's kidding.

 

No, he's right. I've seen Theriot steal bases too, and it seemed like it was really really hard.

[DiamondMind]

murtonfan, maybe take some time off this thread and go finish constructing your shrine to matt murton. maybe you can find some initial offerings to present to it as well

[Jazz]

What happened to talking about the initial talking being brought up, or even getting in the neighborhood of that?

 

Lol @ this thread, though.

[CyHawk_Cub]

I'm done with you.

Yay, he gives up :!:

 

FWIW, I'd give up too in the face of unrelenting dense "logic."

[Magnetic Curses]

i love this thread, que bonita or something to that effect.

[Tracer Bullet]

What happened to talking about the initial talking being brought up, or even getting in the neighborhood of that?

 

Lol @ this thread, though.

 

You lost me

[Tracer Bullet]

When reading this thread (and considering arguing against Theriot's value), we should all keep in mind that a month or so ago, when asked to pick any 5 players in all of baseball with which to start a team (I think it was 5, somewhere in there), Theriot was 1 of MurtonFan's guys. I have to assume that for most people here, Theriot wouldn't even be 1 of the five Cubs you'd pick to start a team.

 

Just wanted to shed some light on what we're up against.