we should do this

[bring stone back]

When Cedeno and Pie could barely make contact and were consistently overwhelmed by major league pitching we're supposed to be okay with that but when Jacque Jones has a bad first half he should not get another chance? I've seen Jacque Jones have consistent success in major league baseball. I have never seen Pie or Cedeno have any consistent success in major league baseball.

 

I've seen Jacque Jones have back-to-back crappy years in MLB (most recently 2004 and 2005), and he's been awful this year with no signs of improvement. He's not worth keeping on this roster. Pie's numbers are actually comparable to Jones' this season, so why not give Pie a shot if you're willing to give it to Jones?

 

And again, Cedeno was never given a chance this year. Yes, he had a poor season last year. However, he's still a much better option than having Cesar Izturis on this roster.

 

I don't know what you expect, but Jones certainly did not have a "crappy" year last year. Played fairly well actually....27 home runs, 80+ RBI's. That's pretty darn good.

[SouthSideRyan]

Cedeno started about 6 games this year, his major league numbers this season mean nothing.

[Abe Frohman]

Cedeno started about 6 games this year, his major league numbers this season mean nothing.

 

His .097 batting average and .121 On Base % meant enough to get him a bus ride to Iowa. He'll be back, and hopefully he will be doing what we all feel he is capable of doing.

[bring stone back]

Cedeno started about 6 games this year, his major league numbers this season mean nothing.

 

His .097 batting average and .121 On Base % meant enough to get him a bus ride to Iowa. He'll be back, and hopefully he will be doing what we all feel he is capable of doing.

 

Can't argue with those numbers....

[Soriano12]

Cedeno is a LOOGY for crying out loud!

[SouthSideRyan]

Cedeno started about 6 games this year, his major league numbers this season mean nothing.

 

His .097 batting average and .121 On Base % meant enough to get him a bus ride to Iowa. He'll be back, and hopefully he will be doing what we all feel he is capable of doing.

 

31 ABs are meaningless enough. 31 ABs over a monthlong period are worse. 31 ABs over a monthlong period with half coming off the bench cold aren't worth the time to come up with something clever to end this.

 

Ronny was absolutely terrible last year. He was also 23. He's done nothing but mash in AAA this year, and has been instructed by my baseball god Von Joshua. I think it's worth giving him a chance. The only problem arising from this as far as promoting Cedeno, promoting Murton are these things have to be accompanied by Jones and Izturis being moved. It's moving the high priced guys that seem to be the problem, not the low priced guys underperforming. Our GM/ownership is too damn stubborn to dump a contract, and it's hurting the team because of it.

[fromthestretch]

 

On the one hand the Cubs need to win now, the organization as a whole is so inept, etc....meanwhile let's make sure we bring up and give at bats to our young guys even though every single one of them was beaten out and outproduced by another option earlier in the year.

 

Jesus, I wish people would stop making this ridiculous arguement. Winning and playing young guys are not mutually exclusive.

 

No, they are not - you're right. However, when those young guys with so much upside do NOT produce when given opportunities they are.

 

Cedeno was NOT given an opportunity this year.

 

Well, definitely not a prolonged opportunity, but he looked completely over matched in his 31AB's, only getting 3 hits.

 

35 plate appearances over the course of a month is not a valid opportunity.

 

Don't get me wrong...I feel that his time at AAA this year was beneficial to his development as a hitter, but at this point, he really has nothing left to prove there. And that doesn't change the fact that he wasn't given a legitimate opportunity to play regularly in the big leagues this season.

[Soul]

Cedeno started about 6 games this year, his major league numbers this season mean nothing.

 

His .097 batting average and .121 On Base % meant enough to get him a bus ride to Iowa. He'll be back, and hopefully he will be doing what we all feel he is capable of doing.

 

31 ABs are meaningless enough. 31 ABs over a monthlong period are worse. 31 ABs over a monthlong period with half coming off the bench cold aren't worth the time to come up with something clever to end this.

 

Ronny was absolutely terrible last year. He was also 23. He's done nothing but mash in AAA this year, and has been instructed by my baseball god Von Joshua. I think it's worth giving him a chance. The only problem arising from this as far as promoting Cedeno, promoting Murton are these things have to be accompanied by Jones and Izturis being moved. It's moving the high priced guys that seem to be the problem, not the low priced guys underperforming. Our GM/ownership is too damn stubborn to dump a contract, and it's hurting the team because of it.

 

I'm ready to give Ronny another shot, although as you mentioned, his suckiness in the bigs isn't just isolated to the 31 ABs he had at the beginning of the season.

 

We should bring him up. He's a good kid, maybe he's improved his plate discipline as we all hope. Izworthless should go.

[fromthestretch]

Cedeno was NOT given an opportunity this year.

 

With the season he had last year and the performance he had in the little time he was in Chicago this year - why give him an opportunity?

 

Because:

 

*He has decent potential and is still young enough to improve

*He really didn't have anything left to prove in the minors

*Izturis isn't good enough to justify not giving Cedeno a chance

 

Yes, Theriot has played pretty well. However, if you have both Theriot and Cedeno, you can get both of them enough at-bats so neither is rotting on the bench. Obviously, Izturis needs to go to make this happen.

 

One poster is claiming that Cedeno fell flat on his face when given an opportunity this year. My argument is that he wasn't given a valid chance to show anything this season. It's really that simple.

[Soriano12]

Remember last year when(instead of working on Ronny's throw from SS to 1st) they converted him to 2B? Just thought I'd take a trip back down memory lane with this wonderful franchise.

[weis21]

Don't get me wrong, 31 AB's is definitely not a large sample size. But the fact of the matter was that at the time he looked absolutely lost at the plate, with no discipline. I think the cubs saw this as a red flag and sent him back down to work on his stroke and patience. It seems like he has done just that and I would like to see him get another shot. I think he will soon because I think izturis is as good as gone.

[TruffleShuffle]

in related news, ronny is hitting .250 with 1 walk and 8 K's in his last 10 games.

[abuck1220]

dividing up stats and seeing who has more of each one is a pretty biased (and weird, not to mention completely worthless) way to value players.

 

bottom line, fielder has been much more valuable than lee this year using every measuring stick available...other than your newly created "tally method".

 

How is it biased? Those are the numbers straight up. You can't argue with those. The only thing that Fielder has been better than Lee at this year is hitting home runs, plain and simple. If you can find something else, feel free. I don't know what measuring stick you use to judge players, but I go by their numbers. Fielder hits more home runs, Lee does more of everything else.

 

the only thing fielder has been better at than lee is hitting, plain and simple..regardless of who has more singles, doubles, stolen bases, etc...all told, fielder has been substantially better.

 

you can try to pull out individual statistics to help your argument all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that fielder has been much better than lee as an offensive player.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

dividing up stats and seeing who has more of each one is a pretty biased (and weird, not to mention completely worthless) way to value players.

 

bottom line, fielder has been much more valuable than lee this year using every measuring stick available...other than your newly created "tally method".

 

How is it biased? Those are the numbers straight up. You can't argue with those. The only thing that Fielder has been better than Lee at this year is hitting home runs, plain and simple. If you can find something else, feel free. I don't know what measuring stick you use to judge players, but I go by their numbers. Fielder hits more home runs, Lee does more of everything else.

 

the only thing fielder has been better at than lee is hitting, plain and simple..regardless of who has more singles, doubles, stolen bases, etc...all told, fielder has been substantially better.

 

you can try to pull out individual statistics to help your argument all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that fielder has been much better than lee as an offensive player.

No, the only thing that Fielder has been better than Lee at this year is hitting home runs. Until you can back up your claims with some stats, I won't change my mind on that. Lee has been better at everything else other than hitting home runs. Statistics prove that.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I'm not saying Fielder is a bad player. He's a great player, everyone knows that. The original article said "most Cub fans would rather have Fielder than Lee the rest of the year", and I disagreed. Lee hits more, gets on base more, plays better defense, can run, etc. So I don't see why it's so far fetched that I would want him on my team the rest of the way.

[abuck1220]

dividing up stats and seeing who has more of each one is a pretty biased (and weird, not to mention completely worthless) way to value players.

 

bottom line, fielder has been much more valuable than lee this year using every measuring stick available...other than your newly created "tally method".

 

How is it biased? Those are the numbers straight up. You can't argue with those. The only thing that Fielder has been better than Lee at this year is hitting home runs, plain and simple. If you can find something else, feel free. I don't know what measuring stick you use to judge players, but I go by their numbers. Fielder hits more home runs, Lee does more of everything else.

 

the only thing fielder has been better at than lee is hitting, plain and simple..regardless of who has more singles, doubles, stolen bases, etc...all told, fielder has been substantially better.

 

you can try to pull out individual statistics to help your argument all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that fielder has been much better than lee as an offensive player.

No, the only thing that Fielder has been better than Lee at this year is hitting home runs. Until you can back up your claims with some stats, I won't change my mind on that. Lee has been better at everything else other than hitting home runs. Statistics prove that.

 

my goodness, man. by "only" being better at hitting homeruns, fielder has been a better hitter. what is so hard to figure out about this? anyway, here's your stats...

 

fielder -- .992 OPS

lee -- .924 OPS

 

fielder -- 157 OPS+

lee -- 140 OPS+

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

my goodness, man. by "only" being better at hitting homeruns, fielder has been a better hitter. what is so hard to figure out about this? anyway, here's your stats...

 

fielder -- .992 OPS

lee -- .924 OPS

 

fielder -- 157 OPS+

lee -- 140 OPS+

That's fine, but by your logic, Barry Bonds is having a better year than Fielder, and I doubt anyone would agree with that.

 

bonds -- 1.050 OPS

fielder -- .992 OPS

 

bonds -- 178 OPS+

fielder -- 157 OPS+

 

 

I'm sorry if my wanting a guy that can do more than hit home runs offends you. By the way you guys are responding, you'd think I said I wanted Hee Sop Choi or something. It's really not that far fetched that someone would want Derrek Lee from this point forward, especially considering the two months that are historically his worst of the season, are behind him.

[Abe Frohman]

Umm, I'll take Derrek Lee.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I believe on the first page, a Brewers fan even said he'd take the vet from this point forward, but he did say he expects the Brewers guys to match Lee and Aram.

 

Apologies to Ender if you aren't in fact a Brewers fan, but I thought I remembered hearing you were from another thread.

[Chocolate Milk]

That's fine, but by your logic, Barry Bonds is having a better year than Fielder, and I doubt anyone would agree with that.

 

I would.

[TruffleShuffle]

That's fine, but by your logic, Barry Bonds is having a better year than Fielder, and I doubt anyone would agree with that.

 

I would.

 

me too. I'd rather have Fielder because he can play every day and doesn't have the injury issues, but when Bonds has played, he's been better than Fielder.

[slieb85]

a whole bunch of stuff

 

let me see if I have this right, you don't want to try improving because they're winning even though that improvement might help them win more? just because Ronny and Felix had rough spells doesn't mean they are not better suited for those positions NOW. we're getting no production from SS or CF right NOW, so what's the harm in plugging in a couple of guys who don't have much left to prove at AAA and let them work through their big league struggles? if they fail, we're in the same spot we are in right now (except with much better OF defense)

 

Isn't he simply saying that the Cubs want to win now and don't have time to babysit players that can't perform currently? I have no problem with Lou doing exactly what he said he would do to start the year ---- "play the players who produce".

 

Theriot

 

I dunno if your arguing that Theriot was given too much of a shot or if your arguing that Theriot produced and therefore was given his rightful shot. But I would agree with you on the latter, he started off well (after a good spring and productive call-up last year), struggled for a while (and rightfully rested on the bench for a while), and then turned it back on again (.323 over the last month) and now is playing much more often (corresponding with fontenot's major slump). I would also say i'm totally 100% in favor of bringing up Murton/Cedeno ASAP but we have to move jones and izturis (and I don't think that's likely to happen in the next two weeks unfortunately). Cedeno deserves another shot, Murton should have never ever been sent down (or relegated to playing behind Floyd) .

 

*Also just a side rant here but I'm really really sick and tired of hearing Len and Bob talk about how Cliff is a proffessional hitter and that's why the cubs can afford to have him gimping around in RF, the guy over the last year and a half has not been that great of a hitter and only has 9 XBH's this year. He's essentially a bad defending, slow, singles hitter. And he's only hitting .297 to boot. On another note his .370 OBP would be nice in a different spot in the order.

[Mephistopheles]

No, the only thing that Fielder has been better than Lee at this year is hitting home runs. Until you can back up your claims with some stats, I won't change my mind on that. Lee has been better at everything else other than hitting home runs. Statistics prove that.

 

I am sick and tired of your batting average driven thought process, but you're not completely wrong. Batting average is a load of crap. Never use it in a debate again in your life, trust me. There are essentially two things that are important to contributing runs for an offense, the ability to hit for power and the ability to not get out. Yes, both are persistent abilities. Derrek Lee has been better at the former than Prince Fielder, but Fielder has been signficantly better than Lee in power production. It's not as if Lee has 20 home runs to Prince's 30. Derrek Lee has eight. EIGHT.

 

Obviously there's a tradeoff between OBP and SLG. There are several statistics that can gauge a player's contributions using both. The most well-known one is OPS, simply OBP + SLG. Derrek Lee gets beat on this metric, 992 to 925.

 

Another commonly used one is marginal lineup value rate (MLVr). This is the basic offensive rate stat used in VORP. A watered down simple way to calculate is to use runs created for a team of 9 league average hitters (using only OBP and SLG) and then replacing just one of those 9 hitters with the hitter in question and finding the difference between the two on a per game basis. Prince Fielder beats him here: .364 to .323.

 

A third commonly used one is EqA. EqA is found by using Raw EqA (TB+H+1.5(BB+HBP)+SB)/(PA+SB/3+CS) and putting it under several different transformations. Derrek Lee is beaten once again, .326-.319.

 

So using three different all-encompasing offensive statistics we find out that Prince's strength (home runs) outweighs Lee's all-around offensive savvy. That said, if Lee's home run total would have been twenty and his OBP didn't slip he'd be a lot more valuable than Prince. Unfortunately Lee's OBP has been over .380 once in his career and it's sitting at .422. I'm not so sure expecting it to stay there is the smartest thing to do. Unlike Prince he's not a budding superstar at the age of 23.

 

Adding in defense, right now they're close in terms of production. Expect Prince's walk rate to spike and then he'll certainly better. They're striking out similar. Theyre walking similar. Lee's just hit a lot more singles and has a HUGE lead in BABIP -- not something that's sustainable.

 

In fact, the ONLY reason Derrek Lee has a higher OBP is his .406 BABIP. That's going to regress. It's an inevitable reality. Once that goes if the power doesn't come back, Lee's going to be an average to below average first baseman. That's not a typo. Prince is certainly safer.

[slieb85]

Theyre walking similar. Lee's just hit a lot more singles and has a HUGE lead in BABIP -- not something that's sustainable. In fact, the ONLY reason Derrek Lee has a higher OBP is his .406 BABIP. That's going to regress. It's an inevitable reality. Once that goes if the power doesn't come back, Lee's going to be an average to below average first baseman. That's not a typo. Prince is certainly safer.

 

I think it was you and I that debated this earlier in the season (not gonna go look for the thread but nonetheless) and I had said that while his BABIP was insanely high at that time (i wanna say around .420) I didn't think it would drop too much. And I still don't think it will. Guys are afraid of challenging him in the only place he seems to have power (inside) and seem to be content on throwing to the outer half (hence Derrek's propensity to hit the ball the other way and in the gaps. Who knows how far his BABIP will fall but I would be willing to bet it won't fall nearly as much as you suspect.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Adding in defense, right now they're close in terms of production.

Was it really worth jumping all over me last night if you were going to admit that in the end? I went with who I thought would help his team more in the 2nd half, it happened to be Lee, and I'm not alone in this. You went with Fielder, which is fine. You're definitely not alone in that either. I don't think either team will lose out either way. But we could've saved ourselves a lot of hassle had we just admitted that yesterday.