Jocketty to the Cubs???

[TruffleShuffle]

WJ targets some really crap players, but his gold mines have all panned out. There's some real luck in that.

 

Not true, he's had a lot of player failures. Spivey? Ponson? Unlike Hendry he's much more willing to experiment with several players at a position instead of paying top dollar for medicore talent.

 

I was exaggerating when I said "all," but you can't deny that WJ flat out lucked into maybe the best hitter of this generation. It's pretty easy to have cash to throw around with a Pujols coming up from your system.

 

I love some of his deals, don't get me wrong. Flat out steals, but it's not like Hendry hasn't pulled those off.

 

I just don't see the vast difference in Hendry/WJ. They both target the types of players I absolutely loathe. Every once in a while they luck into some good moves or are handed premium talent (Prior, Wood, Pujols) by other people in the organization. Whether or not that talent stays healthy is a big factor in a team's success. Walt has had that. Hendry hasn't.

 

Not even close. Before Albert Pujols, the cornerstones of the Cardinals were McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen. Here's what was given up for each of those guys:

 

McGwire: Eric Ludwick, T.J. Mathews, and Blake Stein.

Edmonds: Kent Bottenfield, Adam Kennedy

Rolen: Placido Polanco, Bud Smith, Mike Timlin

 

 

When you trade for the three cornerstones of your offense, and the best player you've let go is Placido Polanco, you've done a pretty good job.

 

 

The Cards won three division titles and a wild card entry before Pujols was a major leaguer. Jocketty has tended to sign his premium players to team-friendly contracts, and even in some of the things he's being ripped for - Edmonds' current contract, Mulder, etc. - the risk has been relatively small, because the length of the contract is reasonable.

 

He doesn't go after guys who are coming off of one big year, as Hendry has been prone to do. He doesn't hand out no-trade clauses for no reason; he'll let a guy like Mike Matheny walk to give Yadier Molina a chance (see Soto/Blanco); he generally knows when to cut bait with guys who have given his team more than expected. It's being very myopic to attribute an 11-year track record of success to luck and Albert Pujols.

[wolf stansson]

While I definitely agree with Truffle's overall point, these are incorrect statements:

 

Not even close. Before Albert Pujols, the cornerstones of the Cardinals were McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen.

Pujols debuted in April 2001, Rolen was acquired in July of 2002.

 

The Cards won three division titles and a wild card entry before Pujols was a major leaguer.

Jocketty engineered the 1996 and 2000 division titles pre-pujols. No wild cards and no third title.

[TruffleShuffle]

While I definitely agree with Truffle's overall point, these are incorrect statements:

 

Not even close. Before Albert Pujols, the cornerstones of the Cardinals were McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen.

Pujols debuted in April 2001, Rolen was acquired in July of 2002.

 

The Cards won three division titles and a wild card entry before Pujols was a major leaguer.

Jocketty engineered the 1996 and 2000 division titles pre-pujols. No wild cards and no third title.

 

Yeah that was dumb of me... I kept looking under 1B for Pujols, so I didn't realize that he debuted as a Cardinal until like 2 or 3 years too late.

 

Anyway, overall point stands, just was poorly made.

[Fred Hornkohl]

The records pretty much speak for themselves...........

 

          1995 thru 2006                            World Series
team                        W       L     pct    PA     W     L

New York Yankees         1158     764   0.602    12     4     2
Atlanta Braves           1146     778   0.596    11     1     2
Boston Red Sox           1069     856   0.555     6     1     0
Cleveland Indians        1045     879   0.543     6     0     2
Houston Astros           1040     886   0.540     6     0     1
St. Louis Cardinals      1039     884   0.540     7     1     1
Oakland A's              1035     890   0.538     5     0     0
San Francisco Giants     1025     900   0.532     4     0     1
Los Angeles Dodgers      1017     909   0.528     4     0     0
Seattle Mariners         1012     913   0.526     4     0     0
Chicago White Sox        1005     919   0.522     2     1     0
Anaheim Angels            996     939   0.515     3     1     0
New York Mets             981     942   0.510     3     0     1
Arizona Diamondbacks      728     730   0.499     3     1     0
Texas Rangers             959     967   0.498     3     0     0
San Diego Padres          951     975   0.494     4     0     1
Minnesota Twins           944     979   0.491     4     0     0
Toronto Blue Jays         939     975   0.491     0     0     0
Cincinnati Reds           942     985   0.489     0     0     0
Florida Marlins           926     998   0.481     2     2     0
Philadelphia Phillies     932    1004   0.481     0     0     0
Chicago Cubs              916    1011   0.475     2     0     0
Baltimore Orioles         911    1014   0.473     2     0     0
Colorado Rockies          905    1021   0.470     1     0     0
Washington Nationals      885    1041   0.460     0     0     0
Milwaukee Brewers         859    1064   0.447     0     0     0
Pittsburgh Pirates        841    1082   0.437     0     0     0
Kansas City Royals        811    1111   0.422     0     0     0
Detroit Tigers            807    1117   0.419     1     0     1
Tampa Bay Devilrays       579     876   0.398     0     0     0

[Soul]

I'd still give Jocketty the keys to the Cubs offices if the opportunity arose, despite agreeing that he has gotten lucky on some players.

 

Luck happens to many GM's, and not always the good ones.

 

I'd give Jocketty a shot because he seems to have a pretty good handle on what it means to build a contending ballclub while maintaining salary sanity. That's something we could use, IMO.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'd be happy with Jockety, but any chance we can persuade the guy in Atlanta to relocate to Chicago....

[The Voice of Reason]

I'd still give Jocketty the keys to the Cubs offices if the opportunity arose, despite agreeing that he has gotten lucky on some players.

 

Luck happens to many GM's, and not always the good ones.

 

I'd give Jocketty a shot because he seems to have a pretty good handle on what it means to build a contending ballclub while maintaining salary sanity. That's something we could use, IMO.

 

See Aram and D. Lee.

[killthegoat06]

I'd still give Jocketty the keys to the Cubs offices if the opportunity arose, despite agreeing that he has gotten lucky on some players.

 

Luck happens to many GM's, and not always the good ones.

 

I'd give Jocketty a shot because he seems to have a pretty good handle on what it means to build a contending ballclub while maintaining salary sanity. That's something we could use, IMO.

 

See Aram and D. Lee.

 

and Z when he's good

[TruffleShuffle]

I'd be happy with Jockety, but any chance we can persuade the guy in Atlanta to relocate to Chicago....

 

that falls in the realism of "can we get anything for jones/eyre/izturis"

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'd be happy with Jockety, but any chance we can persuade the guy in Atlanta to relocate to Chicago....

 

that falls in the realism of "can we get anything for jones/eyre/izturis"

 

yeah...yeah...I know.

[TruffleShuffle]

There are certainly a handful of guys I'd like over Jocketty - I'd take Schuerholtz, Beane, Shapiro, maybe Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin. Unfortunately, I don't see any of those guys going anywhere.

[Soriano12]

There are certainly a handful of guys I'd like over Jocketty - I'd take Schuerholtz, Beane, Shapiro, maybe Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin. Unfortunately, I don't see any of those guys going anywhere.

 

What about Shapiro's right hand man Antoinetti? That is who I am died hard on for next Cubs GM.

[TruffleShuffle]

There are certainly a handful of guys I'd like over Jocketty - I'd take Schuerholtz, Beane, Shapiro, maybe Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin. Unfortunately, I don't see any of those guys going anywhere.

 

What about Shapiro's right hand man Antoinetti? That is who I am died hard on for next Cubs GM.

 

he's probably good, but given that the cubs are one of the higher-profile teams in the game, i'm hoping they can get a guy who's been a GM in the past

[jersey cubs fan]

There are certainly a handful of guys I'd like over Jocketty - I'd take Schuerholtz, Beane, Shapiro, maybe Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin. Unfortunately, I don't see any of those guys going anywhere.

 

What about Shapiro's right hand man Antoinetti? That is who I am died hard on for next Cubs GM.

 

What's that now?

[Soriano12]

There are certainly a handful of guys I'd like over Jocketty - I'd take Schuerholtz, Beane, Shapiro, maybe Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin. Unfortunately, I don't see any of those guys going anywhere.

 

What about Shapiro's right hand man Antoinetti? That is who I am died hard on for next Cubs GM.

 

What's that now?

 

Get ya head of out the gutter.

:?

[The Voice of Reason]

There are certainly a handful of guys I'd like over Jocketty - I'd take Schuerholtz, Beane, Shapiro, maybe Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin. Unfortunately, I don't see any of those guys going anywhere.

 

What about Shapiro's right hand man Antoinetti? That is who I am died hard on for next Cubs GM.

 

he's probably good, but given that the cubs are one of the higher-profile teams in the game, i'm hoping they can get a guy who's been a GM in the past

 

Agree. The Ed Lynch and Jim Hendry learn on the job experiments have been disasters.

[jersey cubs fan]

There are certainly a handful of guys I'd like over Jocketty - I'd take Schuerholtz, Beane, Shapiro, maybe Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin. Unfortunately, I don't see any of those guys going anywhere.

 

What about Shapiro's right hand man Antoinetti? That is who I am died hard on for next Cubs GM.

 

he's probably good, but given that the cubs are one of the higher-profile teams in the game, i'm hoping they can get a guy who's been a GM in the past

 

Agree. The Ed Lynch and Jim Hendry learn on the job experiments have been disasters.

 

Indeed, but the league is stock full of reclycled GMs who are a bunch of garbage. Experience in the GM role is way down the list of qualities I want the next guy to have.

[Banedon]

There are certainly a handful of guys I'd like over Jocketty - I'd take Schuerholtz, Beane, Shapiro, maybe Kevin Towers and Doug Melvin. Unfortunately, I don't see any of those guys going anywhere.

 

What about Shapiro's right hand man Antoinetti? That is who I am died hard on for next Cubs GM.

 

he's probably good, but given that the cubs are one of the higher-profile teams in the game, i'm hoping they can get a guy who's been a GM in the past

 

Agree. The Ed Lynch and Jim Hendry learn on the job experiments have been disasters.

 

Indeed, but the league is stock full of reclycled GMs who are a bunch of garbage. Experience in the GM role is way down the list of qualities I want the next guy to have.

 

I realize that other sports are not the best way to gauge success in baseball, but the two most successful GM's in this town are John Paxson and Jerry Angelo. Angelo had a bunch of experience, while Paxson had none, and yet both have experienced a pretty good amount of success with their respective teams. I think it just goes to show that experience isn't necessarily an indicator of success, though it isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

[jersey cubs fan]

I realize that other sports are not the best way to gauge success in baseball, but the two most successful GM's in this town are John Paxson and Jerry Angelo. Angelo had a bunch of experience, while Paxson had none, and yet both have experienced a pretty good amount of success with their respective teams. I think it just goes to show that experience isn't necessarily an indicator of success, though it isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

 

Angelo had a bunch of experience, but none as a GM.

[Banedon]

I realize that other sports are not the best way to gauge success in baseball, but the two most successful GM's in this town are John Paxson and Jerry Angelo. Angelo had a bunch of experience, while Paxson had none, and yet both have experienced a pretty good amount of success with their respective teams. I think it just goes to show that experience isn't necessarily an indicator of success, though it isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

 

Angelo had a bunch of experience, but none as a GM.

 

You're right, my bad. I thought that's the position he held in TB.

[jersey cubs fan]

I realize that other sports are not the best way to gauge success in baseball, but the two most successful GM's in this town are John Paxson and Jerry Angelo. Angelo had a bunch of experience, while Paxson had none, and yet both have experienced a pretty good amount of success with their respective teams. I think it just goes to show that experience isn't necessarily an indicator of success, though it isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

 

Angelo had a bunch of experience, but none as a GM.

 

You're right, my bad. I thought that's the position he held in TB.

 

I think he was head of player personel under the guy who is currently running the Falcons, but I'm not sure exactly. He's a longtime personel guy who has been very involved with the Bucs and Giants.

 

The media lambasted the Bears for how they conducted the search for Angelo (employing an executive recruiting firm), but as it turns out it was a fantastic hire.

[Soriano12]

I realize that other sports are not the best way to gauge success in baseball, but the two most successful GM's in this town are John Paxson and Jerry Angelo. Angelo had a bunch of experience, while Paxson had none, and yet both have experienced a pretty good amount of success with their respective teams. I think it just goes to show that experience isn't necessarily an indicator of success, though it isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

 

Angelo had a bunch of experience, but none as a GM.

 

You're right, my bad. I thought that's the position he held in TB.

 

I think he was head of player personel under the guy who is currently running the Falcons, but I'm not sure exactly. He's a longtime personel guy who has been very involved with the Bucs and Giants.

 

The media lambasted the Bears for how they conducted the search for Angelo (employing an executive recruiting firm), but as it turns out it was a fantastic hire.

 

It was a good hire, but the excutive search firm delivered the same list that could have been found on the back page of a .50 cent Sun Times paper.

[jersey cubs fan]

It was a good hire, but the excutive search firm delivered the same list that could have been found on the back page of a .50 cent Sun Times paper.

 

Yeah, that's what Marriotti wanted you to believe, but nobody had Angelo on their radar. The media hated him from the beginning and only begrudgingly gave him credit last year.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Part of the reason Jocketty has to gamble on retreads so much is because the Cardinal farm system has been awful for a very long time.

 

To me, the big difference if we're talking Hendry/Jocketty is the people they surrounded themselves with. Jocketty put coaches in place to work best with the people he's aquired, Hendry put coaches in place that destroyed the fruits of the farm system they built. They've had their good trades(McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen, Lee, Ramirez, Barrett) and bad(Pierre, Mulder), but I'd be most interested in who Jocketty brought with him. Has he kept most of the same coaches and front office people throughout his stops as GM?

[E.J.]

Part of the reason Jocketty has to gamble on retreads so much is because the Cardinal farm system has been awful for a very long time.

 

To me, the big difference if we're talking Hendry/Jocketty is the people they surrounded themselves with. Jocketty put coaches in place to work best with the people he's aquired, Hendry put coaches in place that destroyed the fruits of the farm system they built. They've had their good trades(McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen, Lee, Ramirez, Barrett) and bad(Pierre, Mulder), but I'd be most interested in who Jocketty brought with him. Has he kept most of the same coaches and front office people throughout his stops as GM?

 

But isn't Jocketty responsible for how the farm system works? The Cardinals farm system has been atrocious for years, and he hasn't done much to fix the situation.

 

I agree with the rest of your sentiment though.