Guzman MRI Results

[SaorsaDaonnan]

The results of his MRI showed a strained medial side of his right elbow. Guzman will not throw for at least two weeks and will then rehab at the Fitch Park Facilities in Mesa, Ariz

 

 

Awesome.

[otis89]

At least the rest of the bullpen has started to pitch decently. This stinks though.

[Soul]

Alright, now he has an injured arm too.

 

This means the following:

 

1) Guzman would never have survived as 5th starter

 

2) Lou was correct trying to preserve him in the bullpen

 

3) Many on these boards who exploded over Lou's decision were dead wrong. Dead, dead wrong.

[pitchcs]

Alright, now he has an injured arm too.

 

This means the following:

 

1) Guzman would never have survived as 5th starter

 

2) Lou was correct trying to preserve him in the bullpen

 

3) Many on these boards who exploded over Lou's decision were dead wrong. Dead, dead wrong.

 

Get him healthy and trade him.

 

Sorry to all those who love Angel more than their mother.

[NewUserName]

Alright, now he has an injured arm too.

 

This means the following:

 

1) Guzman would never have survived as 5th starter

 

2) Lou was correct trying to preserve him in the bullpen

 

3) Many on these boards who exploded over Lou's decision were dead wrong. Dead, dead wrong.

 

Get him healthy and trade him.

 

Sorry to all those who love Angel more than their mother.

 

He would probably be worth more to keep. He could still turn into a pitcher. He really has no trade value left except as maybe a throw in.

[abuck1220]

Alright, now he has an injured arm too.

 

This means the following:

 

1) Guzman would never have survived as 5th starter

 

2) Lou was correct trying to preserve him in the bullpen

 

3) Many on these boards who exploded over Lou's decision were dead wrong. Dead, dead wrong.

 

what a load of idiotic BS. he gets moved to the pen and gets hurt shortly thereafter, and it proves the cubs were right to move him to the pen? seriously, what a stupid post.

[SaorsaDaonnan]

Alright, now he has an injured arm too.

 

This means the following:

 

1) Guzman would never have survived as 5th starter

 

2) Lou was correct trying to preserve him in the bullpen

 

3) Many on these boards who exploded over Lou's decision were dead wrong. Dead, dead wrong.

 

what a load of idiotic BS. he gets moved to the pen and gets hurt shortly thereafter, and it proves the cubs were right to move him to the pen? seriously, what a stupid post.

 

 

 

Abuck, I think he was kidding. It's hard to believe that someone with that long a history of posting here would, in seriousness, produce a post as insipid as that one.

 

I mean, the board has gone through the Wood/Prior debates so often, and so clearly, that only absolute retards could continue to insist that a talented and cheap pitcher should be considered valueless just because he's often injured. Only a few weeks ago, this board- not to mention almost every respectable baseball analyst- crucified the Phillies for the Myers-to-bullpen move. When Myers broke down, the issue was even more widely discussed. It is difficult to think of a time in recent memory when the already obvious dangers of moving a pitcher from the rotation to the bullpen were more readily apparent.

 

To believe that Soul was serious, you'd have to believe both that he doesn't follow major news stories in the National League and that he's one of these posters who thinks that his feeling such as disappointment or frustration or disgust at hype should be given significant weight in personnel decisions. Neither of those seems particularly plausible, and since, together, those claims amount to the suggestion that Soul is a remarkably stupid baseball fan, it seems far more reasonable, not to say generous, to conclude that he was joking.

[jjgman21]

Alright, now he has an injured arm too.

 

This means the following:

 

1) Guzman would never have survived as 5th starter

 

2) Lou was correct trying to preserve him in the bullpen

 

3) Many on these boards who exploded over Lou's decision were dead wrong. Dead, dead wrong.

 

what a load of idiotic BS. he gets moved to the pen and gets hurt shortly thereafter, and it proves the cubs were right to move him to the pen? seriously, what a stupid post.

 

 

 

Abuck, I think he was kidding. It's hard to believe that someone with that long a history of posting here would, in seriousness, produce a post as insipid as that one.

 

I mean, the board has gone through the Wood/Prior debates so often that only absolute retards could continue to insist that a talented and cheap pitcher should be considered valueless just because he's often injured. Just a few weeks ago, this board- not to mention almost every respectable baseball analyst- crucified the Phillies for the Myers-to-bullpen move. When Myers broke down, the issue was even more widely discussed.

 

To believe that Soul was serious, you'd have to believe both that he doesn't follow major news stories in the National League and that he's one of these posters who thinks that his feeling such as disappointment or frustration or disgust at hype should be given significant weight in personnel decisions. Neither of those seems particularly plausible, and since, together, those claims amount to the suggestion that Soul is a remarkably stupid baseball fan, it seems far more reasonable, not to say generous, to conclude that he was joking.

 

I'd probably be banned for writing that.

[imb]

Alright, now he has an injured arm too.

 

This means the following:

 

1) Guzman would never have survived as 5th starter

 

2) Lou was correct trying to preserve him in the bullpen

 

3) Many on these boards who exploded over Lou's decision were dead wrong. Dead, dead wrong.

 

what a load of idiotic BS. he gets moved to the pen and gets hurt shortly thereafter, and it proves the cubs were right to move him to the pen? seriously, what a stupid post.

 

 

 

Abuck, I think he was kidding. It's hard to believe that someone with that long a history of posting here would, in seriousness, produce a post as insipid as that one.

 

I mean, the board has gone through the Wood/Prior debates so often that only absolute retards could continue to insist that a talented and cheap pitcher should be considered valueless just because he's often injured. Just a few weeks ago, this board- not to mention almost every respectable baseball analyst- crucified the Phillies for the Myers-to-bullpen move. When Myers broke down, the issue was even more widely discussed.

 

To believe that Soul was serious, you'd have to believe both that he doesn't follow major news stories in the National League and that he's one of these posters who thinks that his feeling such as disappointment or frustration or disgust at hype should be given significant weight in personnel decisions. Neither of those seems particularly plausible, and since, together, those claims amount to the suggestion that Soul is a remarkably stupid baseball fan, it seems far more reasonable, not to say generous, to conclude that he was joking.

 

I'd probably be banned for writing that.

 

You also aren't responsible for the greatest post in nsbb history. He is. Brownie points, baby.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

You also aren't responsible for the greatest post in nsbb history. He is. Brownie points, baby.

 

refresh our memories

[Ding Dong Johnson]

How is he overrated?

 

Please no stats involved.

 

Right on, man!

 

All this twaddle about "stats" is just one more attempt by our oppressively monolithic Western culture to subvert your deep-seated natural instincts and to denigrate the rightful primacy of your sociocultural background and condition by subjugating you with it's fascistic "ideas" and "facts." This cult of heartless, dreamkilling fascists plots to rip us out of the rich cultural tapestry into which we were born, and to rend us from the abiding connection to our cultural roots which is the source of all truly abiding nourishment and sustenance. Thousands of endangered sac bunts die every day, and what do we do?

 

But you can see through this--you and perhaps you alone can see through their imperalistic claims of "objective truth" and obsession with illusory "facts." You and perhaps you alone can see that they wish to tear you from your natural impulses-- the exhilaration of exciting plays unmediated by reflection. You and St. Morgan may be our last hope-- to protect the sanctity of pristine baseball-in-da-moment experience and anecdotes-around-the-fire from the fetid conspiracy of these boot-licking statistics lovers!

 

Down with the fascism of facts!

 

 

 

 

 

Or not.

 

BINGO, forgot all about that one

Edited June 8, 2007 by Ding Dong Johnson

[Ding Dong Johnson]

hey, where'd you go?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Yep. That might have been the single greatest post of all time.

[questionmarkgrace]

it makes sense. Often times if a pitcher comes up with leg issues he is also hurting some where else and the secondary injury is almost always directly caused by compensating for the initially injury.

 

This explains guzmans arm pain and subsequent leg cramps. sure does suck though. I still like him as a starter better but not if he cant take it.

[SaorsaDaonnan]

it makes sense. Often times if a pitcher comes up with leg issues he is also hurting some where else and the secondary injury is almost always directly caused by compensating for the initially injury.

 

This explains guzmans arm pain and subsequent leg cramps. sure does suck though. I still like him as a starter better but not if he cant take it.

 

 

When the hamstring thing came up a couple weeks ago, somebody mentioned that he'd had the same issue in the past. Can't remember if that source indicated with what frequency the problem had occured. Did anybody ever tie the earlier leg cramps to the forearm soreness he had in minors?

 

Do we know whether the forearm soreness he had back then in the elbow area?

 

I guess I'm not sure what this injury shows us. As questionmarkgrace points out, it isn't that surprising when a guy with leg problems starts developing arm trouble. Although highly suspicious, it's not an open-and-shut case that the move to the pen significantly contributed to the problem. On the other hand, it's far too quick to say that Guzman's history shows that his breakdown was inevitable and that the move was insignificant.

 

I'd agree that Guz should ideally be in the rotation, but at the end of the day I don't have the medical training to say whether he has a reasonable liklihood of staying healthy in that role. [/i]

[VVMattVV]

Bouncing a guy with a history of injuries back and forth between roles all year, then making him throw 7 2/3 innings out of the pen in 12 days is never a good idea.

[Amazing_Grace]

This really shouldn't be terribly surprising to anyone. Guzman has been injured much of his minor league career. A lot of people originally had him projected to make the majors in 2004 I believe, but his arm problems prevented that and delayed him significantly. I don't think it makes much difference pitching out of the pen or the rotation from an injury standpoint, unless of course he's used *very* sparingly in the pen I could see some advantage.

[jjgman21]

Bouncing a guy with a history of injuries back and forth between roles all year, then making him throw 7 2/3 innings out of the pen in 12 days is never a good idea.

 

I've heard this several times now and still don't know what it means.

 

 

he was declared long man about mid ST. I don't think he worked a stint longer than 3 innings all spring. in April, he got one batter on the 5th, then went

 

4/6 two inning

4/10 three innings

4/16 two innings.

 

nice regular intervals between pitching. then he was sent to Iowa to be stretched out at a nice normal pace. he was recalled and went into the regular rotation on normal rest. at one point he was made to pitch over 15 innings in just 11 days!.

 

then he was moved to the pen, and was not overworked. in essence, his pitching pattern was pretty close to what a starter would do if you consider a starters day to throw between starts.

 

there is no overly abusive pitching pattern here. nothing happened that has not been done literally thousands of times without the player getting injured. the guy has been blowing out one thing or another for years on end now. what's so difficult about accepting that the guy gets injured with regularity and this just fits the larger pattern of his entire professional career?

[SaorsaDaonnan]

Bouncing a guy with a history of injuries back and forth between roles all year, then making him throw 7 2/3 innings out of the pen in 12 days is never a good idea.

 

 

Oh, of course! I think most of us can agree that Guzman has been badly handled. Showing that the Cubs have taken stupid risks with him, though, isn't the same as showing that those decisions caused Guzman to have the problems he's having. Maybe he would have had them anyway.

 

If I remember the Myers story correctly, there was precious little to suggest that he was injured, or even deviating from his normal mechanics, before his move to the pen. So, in that case it was very reasonable to conclude that the move caused the injury. There weren't any other plausible stories available.

 

The Guzman case is different because of his injury history. Guzman's injury history suggests that he was already at risk for this sort of thing, no matter how the Cubs treated him. So, unlike the Myers case, the Guzman case has the potential to be explained in different ways. In the Myers case, the only possible alternative explanations were conspicuously improbable: that Myers was hurt before but that it somehow hadn't shown up in any observable way, that Myers' shoulder was going to catastrophically break down once he had thrown a certain number of pitches in his career, ect. These arguments are bad because there isn't any evidence for them. They were logically possible, some of them, but they weren't compelling because there was no real reason to entertain them.

 

For the Guzman case, it's not crazy to think that he might well have broken down anyway, particularly if someone can produce evidence that his minor league troubles with forearm soreness were similar to his current troubles, and especially if someone can show that they occured in connection with earlier leg problems. Another way to look at it is this: weren't we all somewhat concerned about Guzmans health before the season even began? Wouldn't we have all been a little nervous about it, even if the Cubs had put him in the rotation in April and left him there, pulling him after 95 pitches each time?

 

 

I happen to think that the Cubs' handling of Guzman did contribute substantially to his injury. But at the same time, it looks to be me like I can't justify this belief, for the reasons I just gave. So, I'm strongly suspcious, but at the same time it seems like too much to insist that anybody who disagrees simply hasn't got their head on straight. (VVMattVV, I am NOT saying that you think anything of the sort about those who seem to disagree with you. I've quoted your post only because it helped me set up the beginning of this post.)

[NCCubFan]

Do we know whether the forearm soreness he had back then in the elbow area?

I'm guessing no, that it was the area between his wrist and elbow. If it were his elbow before I think it would have been stated that way.

[SaorsaDaonnan]

Do we know whether the forearm soreness he had back then in the elbow area?

I'm guessing no, that it was the area between his wrist and elbow. If it were his elbow before I think it would have been stated that way.

 

I'd have thought so too, but a couple of the articles I've seen online have described yesterday's roster move as resulting from "forearm soreness." Granted, one of these was Paul Sullivan...

 

Anyway, it has me wondering...

[Soul]

Alright, now he has an injured arm too.

 

This means the following:

 

1) Guzman would never have survived as 5th starter

 

2) Lou was correct trying to preserve him in the bullpen

 

3) Many on these boards who exploded over Lou's decision were dead wrong. Dead, dead wrong.

 

what a load of idiotic BS. he gets moved to the pen and gets hurt shortly thereafter, and it proves the cubs were right to move him to the pen? seriously, what a stupid post.

 

 

 

Abuck, I think he was kidding. It's hard to believe that someone with that long a history of posting here would, in seriousness, produce a post as insipid as that one.

 

I mean, the board has gone through the Wood/Prior debates so often, and so clearly, that only absolute retards could continue to insist that a talented and cheap pitcher should be considered valueless just because he's often injured. Only a few weeks ago, this board- not to mention almost every respectable baseball analyst- crucified the Phillies for the Myers-to-bullpen move. When Myers broke down, the issue was even more widely discussed. It is difficult to think of a time in recent memory when the already obvious dangers of moving a pitcher from the rotation to the bullpen were more readily apparent.

 

To believe that Soul was serious, you'd have to believe both that he doesn't follow major news stories in the National League and that he's one of these posters who thinks that his feeling such as disappointment or frustration or disgust at hype should be given significant weight in personnel decisions. Neither of those seems particularly plausible, and since, together, those claims amount to the suggestion that Soul is a remarkably stupid baseball fan, it seems far more reasonable, not to say generous, to conclude that he was joking.

 

More like.......attempting to get a rise from some of the folks around here who are so very easy to get a rise from.

 

Alright, I do that from time to time. I realize it makes me an insufferable jerk.

[YearofDaCubs]

From last year:

 

Cubs | Guzman leaves minor league start with cramps

Fri, 21 Jul 2006 20:30:29 -0700

 

Chicago Cubs minor league P Angel Guzman (cramps) had to leave his last start for Triple-A Iowa, Tuesday, July 18, against Oklahoma, because of cramps in his forearm, according to Carrie Muskat of Chicago.Cubs.MLB.com. Athletic trainer Mark O'Neal said the problem was dehydration. Guzman had struck out eight batters through 3-2/3 innings.

 

Cubs | Guzman leaves game early Sunday

Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:28:31 -0700

 

Carrie Muskat, of Cubs.MLB.com, reports Chicago Cubs SP Angel Guzman (forearm) left the game early Sunday, Sept. 3, with cramping in his right forearm. He is not expected to miss his next start.

[rocket]

if SaorsaDaonnan runs in the best nsbb poster tournament it'd be a shame if he didn't win

[ctcf]

if SaorsaDaonnan runs in the best nsbb poster tournament it'd be a shame if he didn't win

 

QFT