Lou's shake-up: Guzman and his 3.18 ERA to pen

[tfarks]

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing.

 

Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit.

 

If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen?

If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore.

 

The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied.

 

Wow, so you really would start complaining about the offense who scored a very winnable 5 runs and Marquis who had been our best pitcher all year? You would not be dissatisfied with the fact Howry blows another game in the 8th inning?

 

I would complain about Marquis giving up 5 earned runs, yes. What does his pitching this year have to do with anything? We're talking about one game. If you lose 6-5 in a game where your starter gave up 5 runs, he is on the hook for a bad outing. What are you trying to argue exactly?

 

I'm arguing the fact that Marquis' outing was an anomaly while the bullpen has been a perpetual problem that has cost us at least 10 games. I would forgive Marquis for a rough outing before I forgave Howry screwing over the team once again.

 

But that wasn't the original argument. We weren't talking about how Marquis has pitched this year, we were talking about one game. You were saying everyone would change their stance on this move if the offense didn't come through, but thats wrong. You are arguing that:

 

The starter gives up 5 runs in 5 IP.

The bullpen gives up 1 run in 4 IP. (which, if we lost 6-5, it would have been)

The offense scores 5 runs.

 

And its the pen's fault.

 

Don't put words into my mouth to provide adequate basis for your argument. I am NOT talking about one game, I am talking about one game after many. If the bullpen had blown ANOTHER lead, its not like I'm examining this one game arbitrarily. I have, since the beginning taken the whole season into account. I pointed out this game particularly because Howry had blown another one for the but its kinda okay because the Cubs won and he will get back on track camp.

Edited May 20, 2007 by tfarks

[Soul]

The problem here is that several people on this thread genuinely think they'd be a better manager than Lou Piniella, yet can't come up with a better way to handle this situation than Lou is trying.

 

Sorry, but I'll call that out every single time.

 

hahahaha, is this for real? At least two different posters, maybe three came up with roles for the pen to be effective without the madness of demoting Guzman.

 

Hilarious. All of them are ridiculous, and would quite simply result in more burnout on the good arms we do have. Either that, or they wouldn't result in much change at all.

 

You can't have it both ways. You either lean on Wuertz, Ohman, and Dempster more and risk burning them out quicker, or you pitch Eyre and Howry and give up leads. Lou is making a move that provides a new resource in the pen. I don't like it, but these other ideas are woefully inadequate.

 

You can't carry deadweight in your pen, TT. That's just a fact.

 

Every pen has guys who aren't very good. For us that's Eyre. He can pitch when there's blowouts or our starter gets rocked. Cotts, Howry, and Marmol are plenty adequate for short/middle relief, Cotts has been effective, Howry is better than his results this year, and Marmol has great stuff. Ohman's around to get out a LH too, giving you two options from either side. Then you have the straight forward setup-closer situation with Wuertz and Dempster.

 

You've got it in your mind that Howry is an abomination beyond saving and that any solution to the pen that keeps him and Eyre in it will result in burnout. That's wrong.

 

And you're ignoring Howry's poor performance this year and declaring Marmol to be a major-league competent reliever with little or no basis for that assertion.

[VVMattVV]

He said effective starter, how is that making him out to be like Tom Glavine?

 

He's not been determined to be an "effective starter" based on 2 starts.

 

what? I'm determining him to be effective based on his talent + his 3 starts this year + a body of minor league work. And it doesn't really matter if he's effective or not, his replacement is probably going to be worse than he would have been in the same situation.

 

His ERA was over 10 in the minors this year. What on earth are you talking about? He's had 2 good starts this year, last year he was terrible.

 

You seem to want to put him on the level of a Lilly or a Marquis. He's a young arm who recently had a couple good starts. Hopefully it turns into more.

 

No one is saying Guzman is dominant or equal to Lilly/Marquis/Glavine.

[Drew Doughty]

The problem here is that several people on this thread genuinely think they'd be a better manager than Lou Piniella, yet can't come up with a better way to handle this situation than Lou is trying.

 

Sorry, but I'll call that out every single time.

 

hahahaha, is this for real? At least two different posters, maybe three came up with roles for the pen to be effective without the madness of demoting Guzman.

 

Hilarious. All of them are ridiculous, and would quite simply result in more burnout on the good arms we do have. Either that, or they wouldn't result in much change at all.

 

You can't have it both ways. You either lean on Wuertz, Ohman, and Dempster more and risk burning them out quicker, or you pitch Eyre and Howry and give up leads. Lou is making a move that provides a new resource in the pen. I don't like it, but these other ideas are woefully inadequate.

 

You can't carry deadweight in your pen, TT. That's just a fact.

 

so how is moving guzman to the pen a good move? just because other moves are bad doesn't mean you make a different bad move.

 

Let's get back to the original point. How is calling Lou stupid a valid assertion when you don't have a better solution?

 

The best thing to do would be to swap roles. Move Wuertz to late inning guy with Cotts and Howry getting work earlier in games (with Marmol being used some in the same situations). Make Eyre the mop-up guy (or the role that Cotts had early in the year). That makes the bullpen slightly better.

 

The best thing to do would be for Hendry to not spend money on relievers willy-nilly, but that isn't about to stop, so there isn't anything Lou can do. My solution would be to change the usage roles and experiment with minor leaguers (like Cherry and Marmol). Moving our best option for 5th starter (aka not tom glavine) to the bullpen to "solve" the bullpen problem isn't an actual solution.

[Soul]

He said effective starter, how is that making him out to be like Tom Glavine?

 

He's not been determined to be an "effective starter" based on 2 starts.

 

what? I'm determining him to be effective based on his talent + his 3 starts this year + a body of minor league work. And it doesn't really matter if he's effective or not, his replacement is probably going to be worse than he would have been in the same situation.

 

His ERA was over 10 in the minors this year. What on earth are you talking about? He's had 2 good starts this year, last year he was terrible.

 

You seem to want to put him on the level of a Lilly or a Marquis. He's a young arm who recently had a couple good starts. Hopefully it turns into more.[/quote]

 

No one is saying Guzman is dominant or equal to Lilly/Marquis/Glavine. [/b]

 

Those are effective starters. What is Guzman then? He's a young guy who is still getting himself together, far from a sure thing as a starter. So let's quit pretending Lou's throwing sure-fire starter stats out of the lineup, alright?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The problem here is that several people on this thread genuinely think they'd be a better manager than Lou Piniella, yet can't come up with a better way to handle this situation than Lou is trying.

 

Sorry, but I'll call that out every single time.

 

hahahaha, is this for real? At least two different posters, maybe three came up with roles for the pen to be effective without the madness of demoting Guzman.

 

Hilarious. All of them are ridiculous, and would quite simply result in more burnout on the good arms we do have. Either that, or they wouldn't result in much change at all.

 

You can't have it both ways. You either lean on Wuertz, Ohman, and Dempster more and risk burning them out quicker, or you pitch Eyre and Howry and give up leads. Lou is making a move that provides a new resource in the pen. I don't like it, but these other ideas are woefully inadequate.

 

You can't carry deadweight in your pen, TT. That's just a fact.

 

Every pen has guys who aren't very good. For us that's Eyre. He can pitch when there's blowouts or our starter gets rocked. Cotts, Howry, and Marmol are plenty adequate for short/middle relief, Cotts has been effective, Howry is better than his results this year, and Marmol has great stuff. Ohman's around to get out a LH too, giving you two options from either side. Then you have the straight forward setup-closer situation with Wuertz and Dempster.

 

You've got it in your mind that Howry is an abomination beyond saving and that any solution to the pen that keeps him and Eyre in it will result in burnout. That's wrong.

 

And you're ignoring Howry's poor performance this year and declaring Marmol to be a major-league competent reliever with little or no basis for that assertion.

 

No, I've already talked about how part of Howry's poor performance is due to poor luck BABIP-wise, that's why I'm saying he'll improve, along with his performance from past years. Marmol has great stuff and has been consistently mentioned as a possible closer candidate as he came up through the system. His results were great at AAA this year, and he's not being counted on to be Brad Lidge, just to pitch the 6th or 7th every couple days.

[VVMattVV]

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing.

 

Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit.

 

If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen?

If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore.

 

The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied.

 

Wow, so you really would start complaining about the offense who scored a very winnable 5 runs and Marquis who had been our best pitcher all year? You would not be dissatisfied with the fact Howry blows another game in the 8th inning?

 

I would complain about Marquis giving up 5 earned runs, yes. What does his pitching this year have to do with anything? We're talking about one game. If you lose 6-5 in a game where your starter gave up 5 runs, he is on the hook for a bad outing. What are you trying to argue exactly?

 

I'm arguing the fact that Marquis' outing was an anomaly while the bullpen has been a perpetual problem that has cost us at least 10 games. I would forgive Marquis for a rough outing before I forgave Howry screwing over the team once again.

 

But that wasn't the original argument. We weren't talking about how Marquis has pitched this year, we were talking about one game. You were saying everyone would change their stance on this move if the offense didn't come through, but thats wrong. You are arguing that:

 

The starter gives up 5 runs in 5 IP.

The bullpen gives up 1 run in 4 IP. (which, if we lost 6-5, it would have been)

The offense scores 5 runs.

 

And its the pen's fault.

 

Don't put words into my mouth to provide adequate basis for your argument. I am NOT talking about one game, I am talking about one game after many. If the bullpen had blown ANOTHER lead, its not like I'm examining this one game arbitrarily. I have, since the beginning taken the whole season into account. I pointed out this game particularly because Howry had blown another one for the but its kinda okay because the Cubs won and he will get back on track camp.

 

The bullpen didn't blow a lead though. It was tied 5-5.

 

How am I putting words in your mouth? You originally said that our "tune" would have changed if the bullpen was at fault for a 6-5 loss today, and in no way would it have been on the bullpen for a loss.

[C.C.]

BTW - Brewers lost 5-1.

 

Okay carry on...

 

Edit: It's bottom of the 9th. Games not over.

Edited May 20, 2007 by C.C.

[Drew Doughty]

He said effective starter, how is that making him out to be like Tom Glavine?

 

He's not been determined to be an "effective starter" based on 2 starts.

 

what? I'm determining him to be effective based on his talent + his 3 starts this year + a body of minor league work. And it doesn't really matter if he's effective or not, his replacement is probably going to be worse than he would have been in the same situation.

 

His ERA was over 10 in the minors this year. What on earth are you talking about? He's had 2 good starts this year, last year he was terrible.

 

You seem to want to put him on the level of a Lilly or a Marquis. He's a young arm who recently had a couple good starts. Hopefully it turns into more.[/quote]

 

No one is saying Guzman is dominant or equal to Lilly/Marquis/Glavine. [/b]

 

Those are effective starters. What is Guzman then? He's a young guy who is still getting himself together, far from a sure thing as a starter. So let's quit pretending Lou's throwing sure-fire starter stats out of the lineup, alright?

 

Those are good-great starters. Your definition of effective is probably different than mine (apparently). I would be happy with Guzman if he gave me an ERA below 5. Guzman has been effective so far and is definitely the best option for 5th starter currently on the team.

[tfarks]

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing.

 

Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit.

 

If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen?

If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore.

 

The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied.

 

Wow, so you really would start complaining about the offense who scored a very winnable 5 runs and Marquis who had been our best pitcher all year? You would not be dissatisfied with the fact Howry blows another game in the 8th inning?

 

I would complain about Marquis giving up 5 earned runs, yes. What does his pitching this year have to do with anything? We're talking about one game. If you lose 6-5 in a game where your starter gave up 5 runs, he is on the hook for a bad outing. What are you trying to argue exactly?

 

I'm arguing the fact that Marquis' outing was an anomaly while the bullpen has been a perpetual problem that has cost us at least 10 games. I would forgive Marquis for a rough outing before I forgave Howry screwing over the team once again.

 

But that wasn't the original argument. We weren't talking about how Marquis has pitched this year, we were talking about one game. You were saying everyone would change their stance on this move if the offense didn't come through, but thats wrong. You are arguing that:

 

The starter gives up 5 runs in 5 IP.

The bullpen gives up 1 run in 4 IP. (which, if we lost 6-5, it would have been)

The offense scores 5 runs.

 

And its the pen's fault.

 

Don't put words into my mouth to provide adequate basis for your argument. I am NOT talking about one game, I am talking about one game after many. If the bullpen had blown ANOTHER lead, its not like I'm examining this one game arbitrarily. I have, since the beginning taken the whole season into account. I pointed out this game particularly because Howry had blown another one for the but its kinda okay because the Cubs won and he will get back on track camp.

 

The bullpen didn't blow a lead though. It was tied 5-5.

 

How am I putting words in your mouth? You originally said that our "tune" would have changed if the bullpen was at fault for a 6-5 loss today, and in no way would it have been on the bullpen for a loss.

 

So a bullpen that has consistently been faltering, put in their set-up guy to hold the 8th, he blows it and thats adequate relief? No they didn't blow the lead in this particular occasion, but they didn't quite do enough to save it. I believe the Cubs pen has made a habit of that this season, if they don't take it one step further and blow it, which again has been done ad nauseam. Why should I feel confident in this bullpen? If the offense and starting pitching struggles the bullpen does not pick up the slack. The only thing they do is try not to blow too many games, and they're not good at it.

[Soul]

The problem here is that several people on this thread genuinely think they'd be a better manager than Lou Piniella, yet can't come up with a better way to handle this situation than Lou is trying.

 

Sorry, but I'll call that out every single time.

 

hahahaha, is this for real? At least two different posters, maybe three came up with roles for the pen to be effective without the madness of demoting Guzman.

 

Hilarious. All of them are ridiculous, and would quite simply result in more burnout on the good arms we do have. Either that, or they wouldn't result in much change at all.

 

You can't have it both ways. You either lean on Wuertz, Ohman, and Dempster more and risk burning them out quicker, or you pitch Eyre and Howry and give up leads. Lou is making a move that provides a new resource in the pen. I don't like it, but these other ideas are woefully inadequate.

 

You can't carry deadweight in your pen, TT. That's just a fact.

 

so how is moving guzman to the pen a good move? just because other moves are bad doesn't mean you make a different bad move.

 

Let's get back to the original point. How is calling Lou stupid a valid assertion when you don't have a better solution?

 

The best thing to do would be to swap roles. Move Wuertz to late inning guy with Cotts and Howry getting work earlier in games (with Marmol being used some in the same situations). Make Eyre the mop-up guy (or the role that Cotts had early in the year). That makes the bullpen slightly better.

 

The best thing to do would be for Hendry to not spend money on relievers willy-nilly, but that isn't about to stop, so there isn't anything Lou can do. My solution would be to change the usage roles and experiment with minor leaguers (like Cherry and Marmol). Moving our best option for 5th starter (aka not tom glavine) to the bullpen to "solve" the bullpen problem isn't an actual solution.

 

I've already been over that, it's a stab in the dark, not one bit more demonstrably better than Lou's option, none of you have a clue if it would work or not. It would likely just result in too many innings for Wuertz and Cotts -- with Marmol walking guys like water through a strainer. But hey, don't let that stop you from declaring Lou to be stupid. LOL.

 

You just got done arguing that Hendry should be "pressured" by Lou. Backtracking off that one a little, eh?

[don_kessinger_was_good]

I would like to borrow the crystal ball many on this thread seem to own, that tells them Marshall "is sure to do worse than Guzman." Please tell me the winning lottery numbers next. Thanks.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

BTW - Who is taking Guzman's spot?

 

Lou hasn't named a pitcher yet...Sean Marshall is the leading candidate and Wade Miller and Ryan Dempster are potential candidates too.

 

I haven't been following this at all. Although I read, well skimmed, some of the posts. If it was Dempster moved to starter which I'm assuming is a long shot who becomes closer?

[Guest]

BTW - Who is taking Guzman's spot?

 

Lou hasn't named a pitcher yet...Sean Marshall is the leading candidate and Wade Miller and Ryan Dempster are potential candidates too.

 

I haven't been following this at all. Although I read, well skimmed, some of the posts. If it was Dempster moved to starter which I'm assuming is a long shot who becomes closer?

 

I don't know. Wuertz? I heard it mentioned a few places on the radio but I don't know if it was a rumor or an actual possibility but it's worth noting that Dempster's name has been mentioned. I'd guess Dempster would have to fail if this were to happen.

[VVMattVV]

So a bullpen that has consistently been faltering, put in their set-up guy to hold the 8th, he blows it and thats adequate relief? No they didn't blow the lead in this particular occasion, but they didn't quite do enough to save it. I believe the Cubs pen has made a habit of that this season, if they don't take it one step further and blow it, which again has been done ad nauseam. Why should I feel confident in this bullpen? If the offense and starting pitching struggles the bullpen does not pick up the slack. The only thing they do is try not to blow too many games, and they're not good at it.

 

I'll take 1 ER per every 3 innings pitched by the bullpen every time out.

 

I'm not trying to say you should be confident in the bullpen or that its a strong pen, I was arguing your original point about today's game in the scenario you presented. That's all.

Edited May 20, 2007 by VVMattVV

[VVMattVV]

I would like to borrow the crystal ball many on this thread seem to own, that tells them Marshall "is sure to do worse than Guzman." Please tell me the winning lottery numbers next. Thanks.

 

Marshall has lost effectiveness on his fastball, has just as many durability issues as Guzman, has worse stuff and command, and does not possess the ceiling that Guzman has. I don't see how you could not consider Guzman the better option.

[Guest]

I would like to borrow the crystal ball many on this thread seem to own, that tells them Marshall "is sure to do worse than Guzman." Please tell me the winning lottery numbers next. Thanks.

 

Marshall has lost effectiveness on his fastball, has just as many durability issues as Guzman, has worse stuff and command, and does not possess the ceiling that Guzman has. I don't see how you could not consider Guzman the better option.

 

And his minor league strikeout numbers have dropped quite a bit.

[Soul]

I would like to borrow the crystal ball many on this thread seem to own, that tells them Marshall "is sure to do worse than Guzman." Please tell me the winning lottery numbers next. Thanks.

 

Marshall has lost effectiveness on his fastball, has just as many durability issues as Guzman, has worse stuff and command, and does not possess the ceiling that Guzman has. I don't see how you could not consider Guzman the better option.

 

We don't know Lou is bringing Marshall up.

 

For that matter, we really don't know exactly what is going to happen at all, or for how long it might be, or what will happen as a result of it.

 

This is alot of hubbub with little facts behind it, at this point.

[JeffH]

Moving Ryan Dempster into the starting rotation is the worst idea since the drive-through liquor store.

[C.C.]

Moving Ryan Dempster into the starting rotation is the worst idea since the drive-through liquor store.

 

I agree with you there. Just let Dempster close until he proves he can't close this year.

[CubinNY]

I think Lou tried one of these shake ups when he was with Tampa. I don't know how long it lasted, but IIRC, he started his relievers and had them go for an inning each.

[Mizzou]

I think Lou tried one of these shake ups when he was with Tampa. I don't know how long it lasted, but IIRC, he started his relievers and had them go for an inning each.

I remember him talking about that, but don't believe he actually ever did it. I could be wrong though.

[VVMattVV]

I would like to borrow the crystal ball many on this thread seem to own, that tells them Marshall "is sure to do worse than Guzman." Please tell me the winning lottery numbers next. Thanks.

 

Marshall has lost effectiveness on his fastball, has just as many durability issues as Guzman, has worse stuff and command, and does not possess the ceiling that Guzman has. I don't see how you could not consider Guzman the better option.

 

We don't know Lou is bringing Marshall up.

 

For that matter, we really don't know exactly what is going to happen at all, or for how long it might be, or what will happen as a result of it.

 

This is alot of hubbub with little facts behind it, at this point.

 

I'm not sure if you were quoting me or just addressing the general thread consensus, but the argument is that Guzman is a better option than Marshall. Who knows what will happen with the fifth spot, I'm just responding to what was said.

[Drew Doughty]

The problem here is that several people on this thread genuinely think they'd be a better manager than Lou Piniella, yet can't come up with a better way to handle this situation than Lou is trying.

 

Sorry, but I'll call that out every single time.

 

hahahaha, is this for real? At least two different posters, maybe three came up with roles for the pen to be effective without the madness of demoting Guzman.

 

Hilarious. All of them are ridiculous, and would quite simply result in more burnout on the good arms we do have. Either that, or they wouldn't result in much change at all.

 

You can't have it both ways. You either lean on Wuertz, Ohman, and Dempster more and risk burning them out quicker, or you pitch Eyre and Howry and give up leads. Lou is making a move that provides a new resource in the pen. I don't like it, but these other ideas are woefully inadequate.

 

You can't carry deadweight in your pen, TT. That's just a fact.

 

so how is moving guzman to the pen a good move? just because other moves are bad doesn't mean you make a different bad move.

 

Let's get back to the original point. How is calling Lou stupid a valid assertion when you don't have a better solution?

 

The best thing to do would be to swap roles. Move Wuertz to late inning guy with Cotts and Howry getting work earlier in games (with Marmol being used some in the same situations). Make Eyre the mop-up guy (or the role that Cotts had early in the year). That makes the bullpen slightly better.

 

The best thing to do would be for Hendry to not spend money on relievers willy-nilly, but that isn't about to stop, so there isn't anything Lou can do. My solution would be to change the usage roles and experiment with minor leaguers (like Cherry and Marmol). Moving our best option for 5th starter (aka not tom glavine) to the bullpen to "solve" the bullpen problem isn't an actual solution.

 

I've already been over that, it's a stab in the dark, not one bit more demonstrably better than Lou's option, none of you have a clue if it would work or not. It would likely just result in too many innings for Wuertz and Cotts -- with Marmol walking guys like water through a strainer. But hey, don't let that stop you from declaring Lou to be stupid. LOL.

 

You just got done arguing that Hendry should be "pressured" by Lou. Backtracking off that one a little, eh?

 

oh yeah i really hammered that point home didn't I? By saying, "pressure hendry or something." wow how could anyone resist that terrifically supported premise.

[Soul]

You just got done arguing that Hendry should be "pressured" by Lou. Backtracking off that one a little, eh?

 

oh yeah i really hammered that point home didn't I? By saying, "pressure hendry or something." wow how could anyone resist that terrifically supported premise.

 

Alright, next time I'll be sure to whip out my mind reading apparatus to better discern which arguments you are serious about.