Lou's shake-up: Guzman and his 3.18 ERA to pen

[C.C.]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

 

Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout.

 

Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

 

If we could make a trade I'm sure Hendry would. Howry (as you saw today) is not getting any better. Same with Erye. Sure this sucks, but what else can we do?

[David]

Ryan Langerhans.

 

That's who it was.

[frostwyrm]

The name I could see becoming available is Farnsworth, due to disappointing performance and the tiff with Roger. Not sure if Hendry would want another go with the Farns, but he is desperate. He'd try to get the Yanks to eat some salary.

[Guest]

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Our pen(especially since we've already added Marmol which makes Guzman redundant) and Guzman are better than you're giving them credit for. Case in point...

 

 

This argument I won't buy...The pen is utterly terrible and needs to be corrected. Maybe Marmol can be effective for us but he showed his obvious lack of control has not went anywhere with his appearance today. Bringing him in with men on base is asking for disaster. I will give the pen zero credit aside from Wuertz and Dempster in save situations.

 

Dempster has been very good, Wuertz is good and should be the 8th inning guy, Ohman has continued to be effective as a LOOGY, Cotts has been better than expected, and Howry is better than his current production(his BABIP should be about .030 lower, a huge difference for a reliever). With the addition of Marmol, you have Howry, Cotts, and Marmol as options(who you have varying levels of comfort with) to get you through the 7th(plus Ohman as a lefty assassin), and pitch the 8th/9th occasionally in games with large deficits. It's far from a disaster.

 

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Will Ohman is a LOOGY and he's doing that well: .100/.217/.150/.367 in 20 ABs. Too bad Piniella keeps making him face righties...where he sucks (25 ABs, .853 OPS-against).

[C.C.]

The name I could see becoming available is Farnsworth, due to disappointing performance and the tiff with Roger. Not sure if Hendry would want another go with the Farns, but he is desperate. He'd try to get the Yanks to eat some salary.

 

Farns!?! Are you serious?

[VVMattVV]

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Our pen(especially since we've already added Marmol which makes Guzman redundant) and Guzman are better than you're giving them credit for. Case in point...

 

 

This argument I won't buy...The pen is utterly terrible and needs to be corrected. Maybe Marmol can be effective for us but he showed his obvious lack of control has not went anywhere with his appearance today. Bringing him in with men on base is asking for disaster. I will give the pen zero credit aside from Wuertz and Dempster in save situations.

 

Dempster has been very good, Wuertz is good and should be the 8th inning guy, Ohman has continued to be effective as a LOOGY, Cotts has been better than expected, and Howry is better than his current production(his BABIP should be about .030 lower, a huge difference for a reliever). With the addition of Marmol, you have Howry, Cotts, and Marmol as options(who you have varying levels of comfort with) to get you through the 7th(plus Ohman as a lefty assassin), and pitch the 8th/9th occasionally in games with large deficits. It's far from a disaster.

 

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

[tfarks]

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Our pen(especially since we've already added Marmol which makes Guzman redundant) and Guzman are better than you're giving them credit for. Case in point...

 

 

This argument I won't buy...The pen is utterly terrible and needs to be corrected. Maybe Marmol can be effective for us but he showed his obvious lack of control has not went anywhere with his appearance today. Bringing him in with men on base is asking for disaster. I will give the pen zero credit aside from Wuertz and Dempster in save situations.

 

Dempster has been very good, Wuertz is good and should be the 8th inning guy, Ohman has continued to be effective as a LOOGY, Cotts has been better than expected, and Howry is better than his current production(his BABIP should be about .030 lower, a huge difference for a reliever). With the addition of Marmol, you have Howry, Cotts, and Marmol as options(who you have varying levels of comfort with) to get you through the 7th(plus Ohman as a lefty assassin), and pitch the 8th/9th occasionally in games with large deficits. It's far from a disaster.

 

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Will Ohman is a LOOGY and he's doing that well: .100/.217/.150/.367 in 20 ABs. Too bad Piniella keeps making him face righties...where he sucks (25 ABs, .853 OPS-against).

 

I know he is a LOOGY, I have said he has good numbers career-wise many times but how many walks has he given up? His act is getting old like everyone else in that pen.

[tfarks]

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Our pen(especially since we've already added Marmol which makes Guzman redundant) and Guzman are better than you're giving them credit for. Case in point...

 

 

This argument I won't buy...The pen is utterly terrible and needs to be corrected. Maybe Marmol can be effective for us but he showed his obvious lack of control has not went anywhere with his appearance today. Bringing him in with men on base is asking for disaster. I will give the pen zero credit aside from Wuertz and Dempster in save situations.

 

Dempster has been very good, Wuertz is good and should be the 8th inning guy, Ohman has continued to be effective as a LOOGY, Cotts has been better than expected, and Howry is better than his current production(his BABIP should be about .030 lower, a huge difference for a reliever). With the addition of Marmol, you have Howry, Cotts, and Marmol as options(who you have varying levels of comfort with) to get you through the 7th(plus Ohman as a lefty assassin), and pitch the 8th/9th occasionally in games with large deficits. It's far from a disaster.

 

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Whats hard to understand there? He isn't doing that well this season because of his wildness and inclination to blow games (hes sucking) but hes still not all bad because statistics show he can get lefties out when used correctly. He will come around and I do not have a big problem with him despite the fact hes easily screwed the Cubs over in multiple games this year, along with Howry.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing.

 

Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit.

 

If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen?

[VVMattVV]

Because you blatantly contradicted yourself in that reply. There is a difference between someone who "sucks" and someone who is "not all that bad." Which is it?

[frostwyrm]

The name I could see becoming available is Farnsworth, due to disappointing performance and the tiff with Roger. Not sure if Hendry would want another go with the Farns, but he is desperate. He'd try to get the Yanks to eat some salary.

 

Farns!?! Are you serious?

 

Yeah. I'm guessing Hendry is losing major sleep over the bullpen now and will try anything. He likes big name relievers and Farns has actually been decent this year discounting that horrible meltdown on 4/11 that is skewing his stats.

 

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=4049

Edited May 20, 2007 by frostwyrm

[Soul]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

 

Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout.

 

Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

 

If we could make a trade I'm sure Hendry would. Howry (as you saw today) is not getting any better. Same with Erye. Sure this sucks, but what else can we do?

 

I'll tell you what I *won't* do. Call Lou an idiot or stupid for attempting to deal with a very difficult situation, when there really aren't any other good options.

[Drew Doughty]

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Our pen(especially since we've already added Marmol which makes Guzman redundant) and Guzman are better than you're giving them credit for. Case in point...

 

 

This argument I won't buy...The pen is utterly terrible and needs to be corrected. Maybe Marmol can be effective for us but he showed his obvious lack of control has not went anywhere with his appearance today. Bringing him in with men on base is asking for disaster. I will give the pen zero credit aside from Wuertz and Dempster in save situations.

 

Dempster has been very good, Wuertz is good and should be the 8th inning guy, Ohman has continued to be effective as a LOOGY, Cotts has been better than expected, and Howry is better than his current production(his BABIP should be about .030 lower, a huge difference for a reliever). With the addition of Marmol, you have Howry, Cotts, and Marmol as options(who you have varying levels of comfort with) to get you through the 7th(plus Ohman as a lefty assassin), and pitch the 8th/9th occasionally in games with large deficits. It's far from a disaster.

 

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Will Ohman is a LOOGY and he's doing that well: .100/.217/.150/.367 in 20 ABs. Too bad Piniella keeps making him face righties...where he sucks (25 ABs, .853 OPS-against).

 

I know he is a LOOGY, I have said he has good numbers career-wise many times but how many walks has he given up? His act is getting old like everyone else in that pen.

 

he's walked 3 in 23 tries against lefties, which is a crappy ratio, but he's not giving up much of anything else. he's given up a total of 5 baserunners in 23 tries against lefties. the issue is that he's faced 27 righties on top of that. his act is getting old because Lou can't figure him out. I'm tired of the "feeling out process" excuse, it's too far into the season for him to not understand his team yet.

[Drew Doughty]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

 

Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout.

 

Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

 

If we could make a trade I'm sure Hendry would. Howry (as you saw today) is not getting any better. Same with Erye. Sure this sucks, but what else can we do?

 

I'll tell you what I *won't* do. Call Lou an idiot or stupid for attempting to deal with a very difficult situation, when there really aren't any other good options.

 

as much as it's a bad situation, lou does pretty much nothing to correct it. the only thing he's done so far (gooz to the pen) is not smart.

[C.C.]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

 

Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout.

 

Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

 

If we could make a trade I'm sure Hendry would. Howry (as you saw today) is not getting any better. Same with Erye. Sure this sucks, but what else can we do?

 

I'll tell you what I *won't* do. Call Lou an idiot or stupid for attempting to deal with a very difficult situation, when there really aren't any other good options.

 

as much as it's a bad situation, lou does pretty much nothing to correct it. the only thing he's done so far (gooz to the pen) is not smart.

 

What do you suggest? Just ride out what he has?

[VVMattVV]

Change for a sake of change is rarely a good idea.

[tfarks]

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing.

 

Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit.

 

If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen?

 

I'm essentially attacking my own bullpen optimism, I refuse to believe in them anymore. So Howry has been good for 3 years, Mark Prior was good for 3 years. His arm was used religiously and who knows if it will bounce back like we want it to.

And you can make fun of me recalling the bad outing, but unfortunately I agree with your argument there. Thats not the point I addressed. When he goes just against lefties he does good, its just that he doesn't only get to face lefties and it would help if he didn't walk every right handed batter he faced. He has not been a world beater but like I said, I don't have a problem with him.

And no, Guzman does not make me feel better. I don't want him in the pen either. However, plugging in AAA pitchers and moving everyone around doesn't make me feel all that comfortable.

If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore.

[C.C.]

Change for a sake of change is rarely a good idea.

 

Huh?

[Drew Doughty]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

 

Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout.

 

Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

 

If we could make a trade I'm sure Hendry would. Howry (as you saw today) is not getting any better. Same with Erye. Sure this sucks, but what else can we do?

 

I'll tell you what I *won't* do. Call Lou an idiot or stupid for attempting to deal with a very difficult situation, when there really aren't any other good options.

 

as much as it's a bad situation, lou does pretty much nothing to correct it. the only thing he's done so far (gooz to the pen) is not smart.

 

What do you suggest? Just ride out what he has?

 

no, he could change his usage patterns. guzman to the pen screams of making a move for the sake of making a move.

[Drew Doughty]

Change for a sake of change is rarely a good idea.

 

Huh?

 

that's what you're advocating. you're saying he shouldn't be content with what he has -- which is fine -- so he should make a move. he doesn't have much he can do. moving guzman is not the right idea. pressure hendry to make a move or something, but don't move an effective starter to the bullpen. it's just a bad idea.

[C.C.]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

 

Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout.

 

Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

 

If we could make a trade I'm sure Hendry would. Howry (as you saw today) is not getting any better. Same with Erye. Sure this sucks, but what else can we do?

 

I'll tell you what I *won't* do. Call Lou an idiot or stupid for attempting to deal with a very difficult situation, when there really aren't any other good options.

 

as much as it's a bad situation, lou does pretty much nothing to correct it. the only thing he's done so far (gooz to the pen) is not smart.

 

What do you suggest? Just ride out what he has?

 

no, he could change his usage patterns. guzman to the pen screams of making a move for the sake of making a move.

 

So your comfortable with plugging in Wuertz and Cotts instead of Howry and Eyre?

[VVMattVV]

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing.

 

Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit.

 

If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen?

If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore.

 

The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied.

[sunnydoo]

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing.

 

And I will tell you why you are wrong. As a situational pitcher, he is brought in to face batters, usually with runners on in dire situations. Lifetime numbers for Ohman are terrible. He has 33 walks with RISP in 36 IP. That is god awful for a relief pitcher. 6 of those are IBB, but 27 is still ridiculous nonetheless. This year, its 4 walks in 3.2 IP with RISP.

 

LOOGYs need to get the people they face out, not walk them and add to the problems. If he is going to be put in the situation as a reliever with runners on base in scoring position, then he needs to do his job...and he isnt.

 

He is also terrible this year being brought in with the bases empty or at the start of an inning, which you label as misuse. His ERA is 5.63 in 8 IP in that type of situation.

 

Need to get rid of him and move on.

Edited May 20, 2007 by sunnydoo

[Drew Doughty]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

 

Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout.

 

Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

 

If we could make a trade I'm sure Hendry would. Howry (as you saw today) is not getting any better. Same with Erye. Sure this sucks, but what else can we do?

 

I'll tell you what I *won't* do. Call Lou an idiot or stupid for attempting to deal with a very difficult situation, when there really aren't any other good options.

 

as much as it's a bad situation, lou does pretty much nothing to correct it. the only thing he's done so far (gooz to the pen) is not smart.

 

What do you suggest? Just ride out what he has?

 

no, he could change his usage patterns. guzman to the pen screams of making a move for the sake of making a move.

 

So your comfortable with plugging in Wuertz and Cotts instead of Howry and Eyre?

 

i'm not ever comfortable with a bullpen, but it's better than Eyre or Howry. Just making a move like this isn't going to fix things.

 

It's sort of like the idea of dealing from a position of depth to correct a position of scarcity, except we're dealing from a position of scarcity to correct another position of scarcity.

[tfarks]

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.

 

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing.

 

Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit.

 

If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen?

If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore.

 

The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied.

 

Wow, so you really would start complaining about the offense who scored a very winnable 5 runs and Marquis who had been our best pitcher all year? You would not be dissatisfied with the fact Howry blows another game in the 8th inning?