Now roster refinement begins: Discussion & speculation

[Amazing_Grace]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

Delgado is a stud, Marquis? Not so much.

 

True. I'm just advancing a general strategy. You think that the Royals wouldn't trade a lesser prospect for Marquis instead of paying Gil Meche 5/$55? I'm not asking for Gordon, Butler or Hochevar. I feel that Izturis is Cedeno is a glove and a longer resume.

 

At least Izzy isn't Christian Guzman.

 

Actually, Christian Guzman's career numbers are better. He has about the same BA and OBP but about 50 points more SLG.

 

There are only a handful of guys that are good enough to start on defense alone. Cesar Izturis is not one of them. He should not be a starter on a ML team at this point.

[Danny82]

Maddux cost $9 million last year. Marquis only costs $4.5 million this year. I'm sure that Hendry wants to build up trade value and trade Marquis before the big money is due. That's what the Marlins did with Carlos Delgado.

 

Delgado is a stud, Marquis? Not so much.

 

True. I'm just advancing a general strategy. You think that the Royals wouldn't trade a lesser prospect for Marquis instead of paying Gil Meche 5/$55? I'm not asking for Gordon, Butler or Hochevar. I feel that Izturis is Cedeno is a glove and a longer resume.

 

At least Izzy isn't Christian Guzman.

 

Why would the Royals trade that deal for Marquis when they signed Meche first?

Edited February 24, 2007 by Danny82

[nilodnayr]

And I've spoken on this topic until I'm blue in the face. It's a new season and I have a lot to be excited about in 2007, so I really don't want to dwell on the '06 season.

 

I just wanted more for Maddux. And I think Hendry could have gotten more than a high priced, no-hit, oft-injured utility player.

 

I think the key point that you are missing is that you are assuming Hendry values players at the same level you do. And you know that just isnt true. While we think Izturis is a crap return, Hendry values Izturis way more than we do and thought he was bringing back something good.

[Sarcastic]

And I've spoken on this topic until I'm blue in the face. It's a new season and I have a lot to be excited about in 2007, so I really don't want to dwell on the '06 season.

 

I just wanted more for Maddux. And I think Hendry could have gotten more than a high priced, no-hit, oft-injured utility player.

 

I think the key point that you are missing is that you are assuming Hendry values players at the same level you do. And you know that just isnt true. While we think Izturis is a crap return, Hendry values Izturis way more than we do and thought he was bringing back something good.

 

Which would actually be much worse than if he just was unable to get a decent player in return for him.

 

I think it is probably a combination of both. Hendry likely overvalues Izturis, but I doubt that anyone was about to give up serious talent for mediocre pitcher in his 40's. We certainly have no evidence that some GM was considering it.

[CubColtPacer]

And I've spoken on this topic until I'm blue in the face. It's a new season and I have a lot to be excited about in 2007, so I really don't want to dwell on the '06 season.

 

I just wanted more for Maddux. And I think Hendry could have gotten more than a high priced, no-hit, oft-injured utility player.

 

I think the key point that you are missing is that you are assuming Hendry values players at the same level you do. And you know that just isnt true. While we think Izturis is a crap return, Hendry values Izturis way more than we do and thought he was bringing back something good.

 

Which would actually be much worse than if he just was unable to get a decent player in return for him.

 

I think it is probably a combination of both. Hendry likely overvalues Izturis, but I doubt that anyone was about to give up serious talent for mediocre pitcher in his 40's. We certainly have no evidence that some GM was considering it.

 

Yeah, the reports coming out the day or two before the deadline was that there was mild interest in Maddux, but nobody was going really hard after him.

[Laura]

Hendry was on both WGN radio and tv after the trade and said that the Dodgers kept wanting to trade prospects, but that he wasn't going to trade a Greg Maddux for prospects.

[CubColtPacer]

Hendry was on both WGN radio and tv after the trade and said that the Dodgers kept wanting to trade prospects, but that he wasn't going to trade a Greg Maddux for prospects.

 

That was the strangest part of the whole thing-since then, Bruce has confirmed multiple times that the Dodgers said no to prospects. Could Hendry have had an agenda? That whole situation on if the Dodgers actually were or were not willing to give up prospects is just very strange.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Hendry was on both WGN radio and tv after the trade and said that the Dodgers kept wanting to trade prospects, but that he wasn't going to trade a Greg Maddux for prospects.

 

And the Dodgers have since said they weren't going to trade top prospects for Maddux.

 

B prospects or Izturis seems like the choice. Hendry went with the ML ready option, for better or worse.

 

People can complain about Izturis all they want, but at least he's good enough to make the majors, which the vast majority of B prospects won't ever sniff.

[BigbadB]

but I doubt that anyone was about to give up serious talent for mediocre pitcher in his 40's. We certainly have no evidence that some GM was considering it.

 

David Wells was traded to the Padres for George Kottaras last year at the deadline. Wells was 43.

[BigbadB]

The funny part about Wells is that the Padres lowballed him even though San Diego was where he wanted to finish his career. He went to Boston instead. Padres traded arguably their top prospect for him at the deadline.

[CubColtPacer]

Hendry was on both WGN radio and tv after the trade and said that the Dodgers kept wanting to trade prospects, but that he wasn't going to trade a Greg Maddux for prospects.

 

And the Dodgers have since said they weren't going to trade top prospects for Maddux.

 

B prospects or Izturis seems like the choice. Hendry went with the ML ready option, for better or worse.

 

People can complain about Izturis all they want, but at least he's good enough to make the majors, which the vast majority of B prospects won't ever sniff.

 

The other part of that trade was that it pushed Neifi into a backup role (with the trade of Walker, it would have been Neifi and Cedeno as the starters at short and second) which allowed Hendry to trade Neifi a couple of weeks later. It may not have been planned that way, but it is much less likely that Hendry is trading Neifi if Neifi seems like the only option for a starter at the time, so I connect those two deals especially with them being so close in time as well.

[Laura]

People can complain about Izturis all they want, but at least he's good enough to make the majors, which the vast majority of B prospects won't ever sniff.

 

Yes, they can and will. Just because Cesar was wearing an MLB uniform doesn't make it a good trade.

 

The vast majority of B prospects won't sniff the money and year commitment that Izturis does either, mainly because they can't hit. I would have been happier with a trade involving a couple of B propects -- though Hendry, of course, claimed they were 'good prospects' in passing -- who would have been more expendable.

[cheapseats]

Hendry was on both WGN radio and tv after the trade and said that the Dodgers kept wanting to trade prospects, but that he wasn't going to trade a Greg Maddux for prospects.

 

And the Dodgers have since said they weren't going to trade top prospects for Maddux.

 

B prospects or Izturis seems like the choice. Hendry went with the ML ready option, for better or worse.

 

People can complain about Izturis all they want, but at least he's good enough to make the majors, which the vast majority of B prospects won't ever sniff.

 

The other part of that trade was that it pushed Neifi into a backup role (with the trade of Walker, it would have been Neifi and Cedeno as the starters at short and second) which allowed Hendry to trade Neifi a couple of weeks later. It may not have been planned that way, but it is much less likely that Hendry is trading Neifi if Neifi seems like the only option for a starter at the time, so I connect those two deals especially with them being so close in time as well.

 

It pains me to write it, but I'd rather have Neifi than Izturis.

[CubColtPacer]

Hendry was on both WGN radio and tv after the trade and said that the Dodgers kept wanting to trade prospects, but that he wasn't going to trade a Greg Maddux for prospects.

 

And the Dodgers have since said they weren't going to trade top prospects for Maddux.

 

B prospects or Izturis seems like the choice. Hendry went with the ML ready option, for better or worse.

 

People can complain about Izturis all they want, but at least he's good enough to make the majors, which the vast majority of B prospects won't ever sniff.

 

The other part of that trade was that it pushed Neifi into a backup role (with the trade of Walker, it would have been Neifi and Cedeno as the starters at short and second) which allowed Hendry to trade Neifi a couple of weeks later. It may not have been planned that way, but it is much less likely that Hendry is trading Neifi if Neifi seems like the only option for a starter at the time, so I connect those two deals especially with them being so close in time as well.

 

It pains me to write it, but I'd rather have Neifi than Izturis.

 

Well, I guess we'll have to see which Izturis shows up this season-at least there is a small possibility that Izturis will be ok this season, while Neifi passed ok a long time ago and continues to decline from his terrible level last year in which Neifi was worse than Izturis and Izturis was just coming back from the injury, while Neifi was healthy all year. I don't really understand why'd you take Neifi over Izturis, but that's just me.

[mg420]

izturis has a chance to be a vizquel type ss if he can stay healthy which is not a bad thing at all imo. a gold glove ss with a .700 ops would be very valuable to the cubs imo.

[Sarcastic]

Hendry was on both WGN radio and tv after the trade and said that the Dodgers kept wanting to trade prospects, but that he wasn't going to trade a Greg Maddux for prospects.

 

And the Dodgers have since said they weren't going to trade top prospects for Maddux.

 

B prospects or Izturis seems like the choice. Hendry went with the ML ready option, for better or worse.

 

People can complain about Izturis all they want, but at least he's good enough to make the majors, which the vast majority of B prospects won't ever sniff.

 

The other part of that trade was that it pushed Neifi into a backup role (with the trade of Walker, it would have been Neifi and Cedeno as the starters at short and second) which allowed Hendry to trade Neifi a couple of weeks later. It may not have been planned that way, but it is much less likely that Hendry is trading Neifi if Neifi seems like the only option for a starter at the time, so I connect those two deals especially with them being so close in time as well.

 

It pains me to write it, but I'd rather have Neifi than Izturis.

 

Well, I guess we'll have to see which Izturis shows up this season-at least there is a small possibility that Izturis will be ok this season, while Neifi passed ok a long time ago and continues to decline from his terrible level last year in which Neifi was worse than Izturis and Izturis was just coming back from the injury, while Neifi was healthy all year. I don't really understand why'd you take Neifi over Izturis, but that's just me.

 

Two reasons: money and proximity. Izturis probably wouldn't get so much criticism here if he was on a major league minimum salary, but for a player who has been as bad as he is to get paid a substantial salary is not justifiable. Also, we haven't cringed at one of Neifi's plays as recently as we have with Izturis, and there is less of a threat of Neifi actually getting an AB as a Cub again. The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

Overall, it seems likely to me that Izturis will have a better year than Neifi, but we'd probably be better off without either one.

[CubColtPacer]

Hendry was on both WGN radio and tv after the trade and said that the Dodgers kept wanting to trade prospects, but that he wasn't going to trade a Greg Maddux for prospects.

 

And the Dodgers have since said they weren't going to trade top prospects for Maddux.

 

B prospects or Izturis seems like the choice. Hendry went with the ML ready option, for better or worse.

 

People can complain about Izturis all they want, but at least he's good enough to make the majors, which the vast majority of B prospects won't ever sniff.

 

The other part of that trade was that it pushed Neifi into a backup role (with the trade of Walker, it would have been Neifi and Cedeno as the starters at short and second) which allowed Hendry to trade Neifi a couple of weeks later. It may not have been planned that way, but it is much less likely that Hendry is trading Neifi if Neifi seems like the only option for a starter at the time, so I connect those two deals especially with them being so close in time as well.

 

It pains me to write it, but I'd rather have Neifi than Izturis.

 

Well, I guess we'll have to see which Izturis shows up this season-at least there is a small possibility that Izturis will be ok this season, while Neifi passed ok a long time ago and continues to decline from his terrible level last year in which Neifi was worse than Izturis and Izturis was just coming back from the injury, while Neifi was healthy all year. I don't really understand why'd you take Neifi over Izturis, but that's just me.

 

Two reasons: money and proximity. Izturis probably wouldn't get so much criticism here if he was on a major league minimum salary, but for a player who has been as bad as he is to get paid a substantial salary is not justifiable. Also, we haven't cringed at one of Neifi's plays as recently as we have with Izturis, and there is less of a threat of Neifi actually getting an AB as a Cub again. The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

Overall, it seems likely to me that Izturis will have a better year than Neifi, but we'd probably be better off without either one.

 

I would agree that the Cubs would probably be better with another shortstop. I do understand the grass is greener on the other side, and yes, Izturis does make about 1.8 million more than Neifi, which I think is justified for the much better possibility of production and optimism with Izturis. Like my post on page 4 spelled out, Izturis was aggressively promoted much faster than his bat developed, and his bat wasn't nearly ready for the major leagues. Looking at his numbers though, his bat has improved ever year from age 17 all the way through June 2005 when he started getting hurt. The only reason his numbers stayed low is because he was promoted way too fast. Now, the obstacle is the injuries-if he's truly healthy, from the pattern of his numbers I see it as somewhat likely that he has a below average to average for a shortsop offensive season (I actually see it as pretty unlikely he's below 650 if he's healthy, and a decent chance that he's at least somewhat higher than that). If he's not healthy, well, then the Cubs will put another shortstop in that will likely produce ok numbers as well. Either way, the Cubs SS position should be a decent upgrade this year, and Izturis will either be all right or gone after the year.

[CubinNY]

izturis has a chance to be a vizquel type ss if he can stay healthy which is not a bad thing at all imo. a gold glove ss with a .700 ops would be very valuable to the cubs imo.

 

Vizquel circa 2007 or Vizquel circa 1997?

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=411&playerid2=656&playerid3=&position=SS&page=0&type=full

[David]

I long for the days of Ricky Gutierrez.

[SAMMYWHO]

or Shawn Dunston

[mg420]

izturis has a chance to be a vizquel type ss if he can stay healthy which is not a bad thing at all imo. a gold glove ss with a .700 ops would be very valuable to the cubs imo.

 

Vizquel circa 2007 or Vizquel circa 1997?

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=411&playerid2=656&playerid3=&position=SS&page=0&type=full

 

either on would be fine. i was looking at omar's career ba of .276 & ops of .702 though.

[CubinNY]

izturis has a chance to be a vizquel type ss if he can stay healthy which is not a bad thing at all imo. a gold glove ss with a .700 ops would be very valuable to the cubs imo.

 

Vizquel circa 2007 or Vizquel circa 1997?

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=411&playerid2=656&playerid3=&position=SS&page=0&type=full

 

either on would be fine. i was looking at omar's career ba of .276 & ops of .702 though.

 

That would pretty much be a career year for Cesar, not an impossibility but not a probability either.

[David]

or Shawon Dunston

 

Fixed.

 

And overrated.

[davearm]

That would pretty much be a career year for Cesar, not an impossibility but not a probability either.

The guy's coming into his age 27 season.

 

Not too difficult to imagine that his "career year" is still ahead of him.

[mg420]

izturis has a chance to be a vizquel type ss if he can stay healthy which is not a bad thing at all imo. a gold glove ss with a .700 ops would be very valuable to the cubs imo.

 

Vizquel circa 2007 or Vizquel circa 1997?

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=411&playerid2=656&playerid3=&position=SS&page=0&type=full

 

either on would be fine. i was looking at omar's career ba of .276 & ops of .702 though.

 

That would pretty much be a career year for Cesar, not an impossibility but not a probability either.

looking at omar's stats, he didnt really come into his own offensively until he was 28 or 29. i'm hopeful izturis can do the same if he can stay healthy.