McCarthy to Texas for Danks and Masset

[C.C.]

I seem to remember a certain white flag trade which had everyone scratching their heads, but turned out alright.

 

I also remember a few moves such as the Pod move, Uribe, and Contreras, which everyone also raised an eyebrow over at the time. Yet it yielded a WS champ.

 

Williams knows exactly what he's doing.

 

Well, I'm not so sure. Williams also benefit from a staff of average pitchers having career years. I don't think even Williams thought that 2005 squad would win a WS. I think Williams gets far too much credit. We will see...

[Backtobanks]

I seem to remember a certain white flag trade which had everyone scratching their heads, but turned out alright.

 

I also remember a few moves such as the Pod move, Uribe, and Contreras, which everyone also raised an eyebrow over at the time. Yet it yielded a WS champ.

 

Williams knows exactly what he's doing.

 

Well, I'm not so sure. Williams also benefit from a staff of average pitchers having career years. I don't think even Williams thought that 2005 squad would win a WS. I think Williams gets far too much credit. We will see...

 

Williams went from being a joke to being a genius. I agree with you that he gets too much credit for 2005. I do think that he is the right man for the WS and Reinsdorf though because they seem to be on the same page.

[Backtobanks]

I seem to remember a certain white flag trade which had everyone scratching their heads, but turned out alright.

 

I also remember a few moves such as the Pod move, Uribe, and Contreras, which everyone also raised an eyebrow over at the time. Yet it yielded a WS champ.

 

Williams knows exactly what he's doing.

 

Time will tell whether he knows what he's doing.

[BigbadB]

I seem to remember a certain white flag trade which had everyone scratching their heads, but turned out alright.

 

I also remember a few moves such as the Pod move, Uribe, and Contreras, which everyone also raised an eyebrow over at the time. Yet it yielded a WS champ.

 

Williams knows exactly what he's doing.

 

Time will tell whether he knows what he's doing.

 

Agreed. They were in a position to be very good with an addition to the roster here and there. They still can be, but if they don't make the necessary moves to be competitive this year, Williams is going to look pretty bad with these moves.

 

Detroit has improved their team this offseason.

[CuseCubFan69]

The White Sox are competitive and that's all I could ask for the Cubs so I give Williams some credit for at least doing that.

[nilodnayr]

While Danks has a slightly better upside than McCarthy, McCarthy has proved himself at the major league level. I'll take proof over potential any day of the week when we are talking about such a small difference in potential. I think the big dealmaker for KW is Masset. However, with the bullpen they have now, I don't see how he is really going to make a difference with Jenks, Aardsma, Thornton, and MacDougal all set to be there for quite a while. This move would have made a ton of sense last offseason, its quite a noodle scratcher this year.

 

Last year McCarthy proved he can put up a 4.68 ERA as a relief pitcher.

 

A) 4.68 is league average

B) Hes a starter

C) In his apperances of 4 innings or more in 2006 his ERA was 2.79

D) In 2005 he had a 110 ERA+

[RationalSoxFan]

There's little doubt in my mind that Haeger could outproduce McCarthy.

 

And whoever proposed the trade with the Cards, my guess is Walt wouldn't see the point in giving up two young guys for a guy who is sure to sign with them after the season.

[nilodnayr]

This move REEKS of an organization that is to penny pinch. I'm sure Williams would have prefered moving Vazquez or Contreras, but didn't get the deal he wanted, as he did with McCarthy. This move also indicates that by 2009, the White Sox will have a new and cheaper rotation. So I am going to call it, I bet Mark Buehrle gets traded to the Cards for Reyes and Rasmus within 6 months.

 

I have serveral life-time diehard Sox fans and they all called me saying the same thing. It might be good for long term or might not, but the fact remains if you can win now why plan for long term.

 

Except for penny-pinching, I don't understand this deal. The Sox weren't that far out of it this year and a few good moves put them right back in it. Along with all of these prospects (and they are just that until they prove themselves), you've got a future of Thome digressing or retiring, Konerko regressing, and Dye leaving for FA. The only way some of these trades make any sense is if they use the young pitching in trade for young positional players (Crawford, Baldelli, Cabrera, etc.). Also, if they're going young, they had better trade Buerhle at some point.

 

What has McCarthy proved? It's not like he's been dominating MLB. This deal could better their team this year and in the future.

 

I don't see how this deal could possibly better their team this year. Masset will most likely not have a significant role in the pen and Danks will probably spend the entire year in the minors. Unless you think the winner of the Floyd/Haeger battle is going to do better than McCarthy, then how can you say that this deal could be better for the team this year?

[Abe Frohman]

I think perhaps MCCARTHY had a lot to do with the success the White Sox had in 2005.

 

His emergence in Spring Training meant Jon Garland HAD to step up, or lose his job in the rotation. Garland indeed did finally produce, in order to survive - and maybe that wouldn't have happened if McCarthy hadn't been challenging him for a spot. The whole staff pitched more effectively.

 

The Sox dominated that year with pitching and defense.

[nilodnayr]

There's little doubt in my mind that Haeger could outproduce McCarthy.

 

That sentence right there makes your user name quite ironic.

[nilodnayr]

the biggest winners here are danks and masset

In 2005 the Cell ranked 1st in HR park factor (1.375), Ameriquest 4th (1.263). In 2006 the Cell ranked 2nd in HR park factor (1.307), Ameriquest 12th (1.066).

 

what about runs?

 

They were pretty close. In 2006 Ameriquest was 1.081 to the Cell's 1.054, in 2005 they were 1.076 to 1.044.

[SouthSideRyan]

There's little doubt in my mind that Haeger could outproduce McCarthy.

 

That sentence right there makes your user name quite ironic.

 

Beat me to the punch, White Sox fan love for Haeger has gotten out of control.

[LeftCoastCubFan]

There's little doubt in my mind that Haeger could outproduce McCarthy.

 

And whoever proposed the trade with the Cards, my guess is Walt wouldn't see the point in giving up two young guys for a guy who is sure to sign with them after the season.

Have you seen the pitching market this off season? No way St. Louis is paying market price for him next year.

[RationalSoxFan]

Haeger's ERA from A to MLB since 2005:

3.20

3.78

3.07

3.44

 

Also, his HR/9 numbers are a lot more comforting than McCarthy's. Charlie is only 23, and I'll stand by my comments.

[TB_11]

This move was driven by the contracts that starting pitchers have received this offseason. Williams knows that McCarthy is one productive season away from receiving a Ted Lilly or Gil Meche-type contract. Either he gets that season, and then loses McCarthy for nothing, or he loses McCarthy now, gets back two solid prospects, and hopes the pitching market comes down in later years.

[nilodnayr]

Haeger's ERA from A to MLB since 2005:

3.20

3.78

3.07

3.44

 

Also, his HR/9 numbers are a lot more comforting than McCarthy's. Charlie is only 23, and I'll stand by my comments.

 

Hes a knuckleballer who has a good chance of completely tanking in the majors. His WHIPs (except for last year, see next sentence), K/9 and BB/9 have been horrible. Last year his BABIP was 40 points lower than expected, explaining the good WHIP. With a guy like that who puts the ball in play, you have to get lucky to do well. Its not magic that there are only a few knuckleballers in the majors. It just doesn't work well against major leaguers. McCarthy is also 23 and has had unlucky HR/FB ratios in the majors. Haeger had a lucky ratio last year, but being a knuckleballer, that is probably predictable.

[KingCubsFan]

This move was driven by the contracts that starting pitchers have received this offseason. Williams knows that McCarthy is one productive season away from receiving a Ted Lilly or Gil Meche-type contract. Either he gets that season, and then loses McCarthy for nothing, or he loses McCarthy now, gets back two solid prospects, and hopes the pitching market comes down in later years.

Except that McCarthy has about 4 (5?) seasons left where his salary can be controlled either by the team or by arbitration. So unless Williams is planning for the 2011 payroll, I don't think that's why he did it.

[cheapseats]

Last year his BABIP was 40 points lower than expected, explaining the good WHIP. With a guy like that who puts the ball in play, you have to get lucky to do well.

 

Expected BABIP for knuckleballers is very different than expected BABIP for other pitchers.

[RationalSoxFan]

Cheapseats, what did you think of the trade?

[UK1679666180]

I like this trade for the Sox, while I wouldn't put Haeger ahead of McCarthy on any depth chart, I think Haeger could become a good btm of the rotation starter.

 

Haeger is the best knuckleballer since Wakefield.

 

Danks has a higher ceiling than McCarthy and getting a solid relief prospect in return adds to the value of this trade.

 

They could potentially have a nice young stable of arms with Broadway, Danks, Floyd, Gonzalez, etc.

[CubinNY]

This move was driven by the contracts that starting pitchers have received this offseason. Williams knows that McCarthy is one productive season away from receiving a Ted Lilly or Gil Meche-type contract. Either he gets that season, and then loses McCarthy for nothing, or he loses McCarthy now, gets back two solid prospects, and hopes the pitching market comes down in later years.

Except that McCarthy has about 4 (5?) seasons left where his salary can be controlled either by the team or by arbitration. So unless Williams is planning for the 2011 payroll, I don't think that's why he did it.

 

It doesn't matter if his salary is controlled or not, if he puts up decent numbers he will be approaching the $8-10 in just a few seasons. Also, it seems as though they were going to relegate him to the pen or AAA this year.

 

This is an example of trading a guy while he has maximum value. McCarthy may have contributed this season, but what he brought in trade was potentially far better for the near and long term.

 

Chances are, losing McCarthy will not cost the WS a World Series.

[KingCubsFan]

This move was driven by the contracts that starting pitchers have received this offseason. Williams knows that McCarthy is one productive season away from receiving a Ted Lilly or Gil Meche-type contract. Either he gets that season, and then loses McCarthy for nothing, or he loses McCarthy now, gets back two solid prospects, and hopes the pitching market comes down in later years.

Except that McCarthy has about 4 (5?) seasons left where his salary can be controlled either by the team or by arbitration. So unless Williams is planning for the 2011 payroll, I don't think that's why he did it.

 

It doesn't matter if his salary is controlled or not, if he puts up decent numbers he will be approaching the $8-10 in just a few seasons. Also, it seems as though they were going to relegate him to the pen or AAA this year.

 

This is an example of trading a guy while he has maximum value. McCarthy may have contributed this season, but what he brought in trade was potentially far better for the near and long term.

 

Chances are, losing McCarthy will not cost the WS a World Series.

If he's getting paid 8-10 million by his first year of arbitration, that would mean he's one of the best pitchers in the AL, and I think the sox won't have a problem paying him. The same thinking goes with Danks. And replacing McCarthy with Gavin Floyd could potentially cost them the playoffs if Floyd doesn't perform like they clearly expect him to.

[SouthSideRyan]

I like this trade for the Sox, while I wouldn't put Haeger ahead of McCarthy on any depth chart, I think Haeger could become a good btm of the rotation starter.

 

Haeger is the best knuckleballer since Wakefield.

 

 

Just barely edging out Jared Fernandez?

 

I love the knuckleball but it's gimmicky, and I wouldn't put a lot of faith in a guy's minor league #s using it. I understand the concept of translating minor league stats, but knuckleballers have proven to be the exception for DIPs, and I think this is another thing where you can't just look at his MLEs and get a good estimate of what he'll become.

[Backtobanks]

I like this trade for the Sox, while I wouldn't put Haeger ahead of McCarthy on any depth chart, I think Haeger could become a good btm of the rotation starter.

 

Haeger is the best knuckleballer since Wakefield.

 

Danks has a higher ceiling than McCarthy and getting a solid relief prospect in return adds to the value of this trade.

 

They could potentially have a nice young stable of arms with Broadway, Danks, Floyd, Gonzalez, etc.

 

I agree that they could potentially have a nice young stable of arms just like the Cubs had with Wood, Prior, and Zambrano and we saw what happened to that. This might be a great pitching staff in 2-3 years, but Dye and Crede will be gone, Thome will retire, Konerko and A.J. might regress and then what.

[UK1679666180]

I like this trade for the Sox, while I wouldn't put Haeger ahead of McCarthy on any depth chart, I think Haeger could become a good btm of the rotation starter.

 

Haeger is the best knuckleballer since Wakefield.

 

 

Just barely edging out Jared Fernandez?

 

I love the knuckleball but it's gimmicky, and I wouldn't put a lot of faith in a guy's minor league #s using it. I understand the concept of translating minor league stats, but knuckleballers have proven to be the exception for DIPs, and I think this is another thing where you can't just look at his MLEs and get a good estimate of what he'll become.

 

No, it's better than Fernandez it has better movement and he can control it better. Unlike most knuckleballers he has some velocity on his FB and his curve is avg.