Willy Taveras?

[baseball7897]

Goony the kid is 24, and improved from his age 23 season...his OPS+ or whatever you referenced above may have been worse than pierre's but the guy actually had a higher OBP...and he had more walks than Pierre in almost 170 fewer at bats...., if we hypothetically got the guy, we'd not be looking for power out of him, it'd be for his defense and potential...if you stuck him in the lineup like this:

 

Soriano

Murton

Lee

Ramirez

Barrett

Derosa

Tavarez

Isturiz

Pitcher

 

You'd have a great top half of the line up and then 7-8 would be weaker, but good-great fielders....and if Tavarez were to improve at the same rate he did last year, you'd have a .340+ OBP out of him in the top 1/2 of our regular players last year.

 

Again, I'm not saying he's great by any means...just that the "i'm never watching the cubs again" comments by some above are the usual over reactions.

 

Just because we "aren't looking for power out of him" doesn't mean it's okay to have absolutely none. And he doesnt' have any potential. He is what he is, which isn't good. He's the same player he was in the minors, which is nothing. The last thing the Cubs need to be doing is acquiring guys for their defense, they haven't sucked because of defense. They've sucked because their lineup has sucked and their rotation has sucked. Taveras was worse than Pierre last year. His OBP ticked higher last year, barely, it was just .008. He also had a decline in AVG and SLG. That's not a sign of a guy who's poised to show off his potential.

He doesn't produce worth a crap, and the Cubs don't need anymore people who don't produce. This would be a horrible acquisition, as usual.

 

It's more of the pitcher's have a game plan against Willy. Now it's time for Willy to make the adjustments.

[nilodnayr]

Goony the kid is 24, and improved from his age 23 season...his OPS+ or whatever you referenced above may have been worse than pierre's but the guy actually had a higher OBP...and he had more walks than Pierre in almost 170 fewer at bats...., if we hypothetically got the guy, we'd not be looking for power out of him, it'd be for his defense and potential...if you stuck him in the lineup like this:

 

Soriano

Murton

Lee

Ramirez

Barrett

Derosa

Tavarez

Isturiz

Pitcher

 

You'd have a great top half of the line up and then 7-8 would be weaker, but good-great fielders....and if Tavarez were to improve at the same rate he did last year, you'd have a .340+ OBP out of him in the top 1/2 of our regular players last year.

 

Again, I'm not saying he's great by any means...just that the "i'm never watching the cubs again" comments by some above are the usual over reactions.

 

Just because we "aren't looking for power out of him" doesn't mean it's okay to have absolutely none. And he doesnt' have any potential. He is what he is, which isn't good. He's the same player he was in the minors, which is nothing. The last thing the Cubs need to be doing is acquiring guys for their defense, they haven't sucked because of defense. They've sucked because their lineup has sucked and their rotation has sucked. Taveras was worse than Pierre last year. His OBP ticked higher last year, barely, it was just .008. He also had a decline in AVG and SLG. That's not a sign of a guy who's poised to show off his potential.

He doesn't produce worth a crap, and the Cubs don't need anymore people who don't produce. This would be a horrible acquisition, as usual.

 

It's more of the pitcher's have a game plan against Willy. Now it's time for Willy to make the adjustments.

I didn't realize that adjustments can only be made during the offseason.

[baseball7897]

Goony the kid is 24, and improved from his age 23 season...his OPS+ or whatever you referenced above may have been worse than pierre's but the guy actually had a higher OBP...and he had more walks than Pierre in almost 170 fewer at bats...., if we hypothetically got the guy, we'd not be looking for power out of him, it'd be for his defense and potential...if you stuck him in the lineup like this:

 

Soriano

Murton

Lee

Ramirez

Barrett

Derosa

Tavarez

Isturiz

Pitcher

 

You'd have a great top half of the line up and then 7-8 would be weaker, but good-great fielders....and if Tavarez were to improve at the same rate he did last year, you'd have a .340+ OBP out of him in the top 1/2 of our regular players last year.

 

Again, I'm not saying he's great by any means...just that the "i'm never watching the cubs again" comments by some above are the usual over reactions.

 

Just because we "aren't looking for power out of him" doesn't mean it's okay to have absolutely none. And he doesnt' have any potential. He is what he is, which isn't good. He's the same player he was in the minors, which is nothing. The last thing the Cubs need to be doing is acquiring guys for their defense, they haven't sucked because of defense. They've sucked because their lineup has sucked and their rotation has sucked. Taveras was worse than Pierre last year. His OBP ticked higher last year, barely, it was just .008. He also had a decline in AVG and SLG. That's not a sign of a guy who's poised to show off his potential.

He doesn't produce worth a crap, and the Cubs don't need anymore people who don't produce. This would be a horrible acquisition, as usual.

 

It's more of the pitcher's have a game plan against Willy. Now it's time for Willy to make the adjustments.

I didn't realize that adjustments can only be made during the offseason.

 

Where did I say that?

[moorecg]

he doesnt' have any potential.

nothing like vast and sweeping statements.

 

All I'm saying is, he's not the worst guy ever...he's not Neifi, and I don't agree that Pierre was necessarily better last year.

 

Just last off season people were calling Brad Wilerson the second coming of Mantle....last year Taverez was better than Wilkerson was...

 

I'm sure you can come up with any number of stats to "prove" Taverez is horrible...I'm just saying that in some pretty imporant areas he's not horrible and he's getting better....and for 400K a year that's not a bad thing to have.

[RynoRules]

Ugh - I was ready to put a stamp of approval on this offseason if he got Church or someone else for RF and moved Jones to CF.

 

There's still time to do the right thing, Jim!

 

You're gonna hurt Alfonso's feelings saying things like that.

 

Meh - I forgot that Murt is there too. Or maybe I am still pining (unrealistically) for Manny.

[nilodnayr]

All I'm saying is, he's not the worst guy ever...he's not Neifi, and I don't agree that Pierre was necessarily better last year.

 

Just last off season people were calling Brad Wilerson the second coming of Mantle....last year Taverez was better than Wilkerson was...

 

I'm sure you can come up with any number of stats to "prove" Taverez is horrible...I'm just saying that in some pretty imporant areas he's not horrible and he's getting better....and for 400K a year that's not a bad thing to have.

 

Actually, even with one working shoulder Wilkerson's 83 OPS+ was significantly better than Taveras' 72 OPS+ in 2006.

[goonys evil twin]

nothing like vast and sweeping statements.

 

All I'm saying is, he's not the worst guy ever...he's not Neifi, and I don't agree that Pierre was necessarily better last year.

 

Just last off season people were calling Brad Wilerson the second coming of Mantle....last year Taverez was better than Wilkerson was...

 

I'm sure you can come up with any number of stats to "prove" Taverez is horrible...I'm just saying that in some pretty imporant areas he's not horrible and he's getting better....and for 400K a year that's not a bad thing to have.

 

Nothing like the old "he's not the worst guy ever" defense. (I should add that I agree, he's not the worst guy ever, there are definitely worse players)

 

Yes, it is possible to prove Taveras is horrible. It's really easy.

Edited December 15, 2006 by goony's evil twin

[nilodnayr]

Goony the kid is 24, and improved from his age 23 season...his OPS+ or whatever you referenced above may have been worse than pierre's but the guy actually had a higher OBP...and he had more walks than Pierre in almost 170 fewer at bats...., if we hypothetically got the guy, we'd not be looking for power out of him, it'd be for his defense and potential...if you stuck him in the lineup like this:

 

Soriano

Murton

Lee

Ramirez

Barrett

Derosa

Tavarez

Isturiz

Pitcher

 

You'd have a great top half of the line up and then 7-8 would be weaker, but good-great fielders....and if Tavarez were to improve at the same rate he did last year, you'd have a .340+ OBP out of him in the top 1/2 of our regular players last year.

 

Again, I'm not saying he's great by any means...just that the "i'm never watching the cubs again" comments by some above are the usual over reactions.

 

Just because we "aren't looking for power out of him" doesn't mean it's okay to have absolutely none. And he doesnt' have any potential. He is what he is, which isn't good. He's the same player he was in the minors, which is nothing. The last thing the Cubs need to be doing is acquiring guys for their defense, they haven't sucked because of defense. They've sucked because their lineup has sucked and their rotation has sucked. Taveras was worse than Pierre last year. His OBP ticked higher last year, barely, it was just .008. He also had a decline in AVG and SLG. That's not a sign of a guy who's poised to show off his potential.

He doesn't produce worth a crap, and the Cubs don't need anymore people who don't produce. This would be a horrible acquisition, as usual.

 

It's more of the pitcher's have a game plan against Willy. Now it's time for Willy to make the adjustments.

I didn't realize that adjustments can only be made during the offseason.

 

Where did I say that?

 

You said that his decline in AVG and SLG from 05 to 06 was due to pitcher's game plan against Willy and now its time for him to make adjustments. Meaning that pitchers adjusted last offseason to Willy, which resulted in the drops and now Willy must adjust this offseaon. If adjustments ocurred during the season then it would not be appropriate to use them as a reason for differences in year to year changes.

[UK1679666180]

Him and Pie would be fun to watch defensively in the future. Taveras is the best defensive CF'er in the game from what I've seen and Pie has the potential to be even better.

 

Offensively, he's at a crossroads as far as getting on base. Does he work the count more to draw more BBs and jeopardize striking out more (which already is too high) or does he make contact more taking advantage of his ability to get on base at a high clip when putting the ball into play risking lowering his already low BB totals?

 

Having Pie almost ready puts into question, why they would long-term into Taveras and could they survive w/Pie as a RF'er and Tavares in CF?

 

I don't think it is practical especially with a lesser bat w/Izturis and Blanco getting 20-33% of the game behind the plate.

[BigbadB]

The bigger question that hasn't been answered for me is why Colorado would trade Taveras when they've been hunting for someone all winter long that can play CF.

[moorecg]

Just so I know for future reference...is OPS+ now the only stat that counts now?

[Chocolate Milk]

Just so I know for future reference...is OPS+ now the only stat that counts now?

 

Does this add anything to the discussion at all?

[moorecg]

Him and Pie would be fun to watch defensively in the future. Taveras is the best defensive CF'er in the game from what I've seen and Pie has the potential to be even better.

 

Offensively, he's at a crossroads as far as getting on base. Does he work the count more to draw more BBs and jeopardize striking out more (which already is too high) or does he make contact more taking advantage of his ability to get on base at a high clip when putting the ball into play risking lowering his already low BB totals?

 

Having Pie almost ready puts into question, why they would long-term into Taveras and could they survive w/Pie as a RF'er and Tavares in CF?

 

I don't think it is practical especially with a lesser bat w/Izturis and Blanco getting 20-33% of the game behind the plate.

 

I agree with all of this.

Basically everything I was saying above is that the guy has some solid points to his game...it could be interesting...but I'm not out there advocating for it to happen.

[goonys evil twin]

Him and Pie would be fun to watch defensively in the future. Taveras is the best defensive CF'er in the game from what I've seen and Pie has the potential to be even better.

 

Offensively, he's at a crossroads as far as getting on base. Does he work the count more to draw more BBs and jeopardize striking out more (which already is too high) or does he make contact more taking advantage of his ability to get on base at a high clip when putting the ball into play risking lowering his already low BB totals?

 

Having Pie almost ready puts into question, why they would long-term into Taveras and could they survive w/Pie as a RF'er and Tavares in CF?

 

I don't think it is practical especially with a lesser bat w/Izturis and Blanco getting 20-33% of the game behind the plate.

 

I agree with all of this.

Basically everything I was saying above is that the guy has some solid points to his game...it could be interesting...but I'm not out there advocating for it to happen.

 

If you think "let's see if we can be as bad offensively as we were last year" would be interesting, then I guess it is.

 

 

There's no possible way you could justify Taveras and Pie in the same outfield.

 

Unless of course, you had Cabrera in left, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Tejada and Lee on the infield.

[UK1679666180]

Him and Pie would be fun to watch defensively in the future. Taveras is the best defensive CF'er in the game from what I've seen and Pie has the potential to be even better.

 

Offensively, he's at a crossroads as far as getting on base. Does he work the count more to draw more BBs and jeopardize striking out more (which already is too high) or does he make contact more taking advantage of his ability to get on base at a high clip when putting the ball into play risking lowering his already low BB totals?

 

Having Pie almost ready puts into question, why they would long-term into Taveras and could they survive w/Pie as a RF'er and Tavares in CF?

 

I don't think it is practical especially with a lesser bat w/Izturis and Blanco getting 20-33% of the game behind the plate.

 

I agree with all of this.

Basically everything I was saying above is that the guy has some solid points to his game...it could be interesting...but I'm not out there advocating for it to happen.

 

He has 3 plus tools (speed, arm, fielding), there's no question about that. It's just hitting and his approach that'll decide whether or not he can become a player that can start on a team looking to score runs from that position.

[moorecg]

Just so I know for future reference...is OPS+ now the only stat that counts now?

 

Does this add anything to the discussion at all?

 

I'm honestly just curious. It seems OBP was the end all be all last year...now when that stat doesn't support the argument its OPS+, or whatever stat happens to support and/or detract from the player/s in question.

 

I don't think anyone was arguing that if Tavarez was hypothetically brought here that it would be for his prowess to drive in runs, so I was just curious why OPS+ was the measure which was being used to detract from him.

 

I don't care anymore...I may just go back to arguing the relative merits of Freddy Bynum and Craig Counsell from a few weeks back, it seems just about as relevant at this discussion

[moorecg]

Him and Pie would be fun to watch defensively in the future. Taveras is the best defensive CF'er in the game from what I've seen and Pie has the potential to be even better.

 

Offensively, he's at a crossroads as far as getting on base. Does he work the count more to draw more BBs and jeopardize striking out more (which already is too high) or does he make contact more taking advantage of his ability to get on base at a high clip when putting the ball into play risking lowering his already low BB totals?

 

Having Pie almost ready puts into question, why they would long-term into Taveras and could they survive w/Pie as a RF'er and Tavares in CF?

 

I don't think it is practical especially with a lesser bat w/Izturis and Blanco getting 20-33% of the game behind the plate.

 

I agree with all of this.

Basically everything I was saying above is that the guy has some solid points to his game...it could be interesting...but I'm not out there advocating for it to happen.

 

He has 3 plus tools (speed, arm, fielding), there's no question about that. It's just hitting and his approach that'll decide whether or not he can become a player that can start on a team looking to score runs from that position.

 

Again, I agree...thanks for the thoughts UK.

[CubinNY]

Just so I know for future reference...is OPS+ now the only stat that counts now?

 

Does this add anything to the discussion at all?

 

I'm honestly just curious. It seems OBP was the end all be all last year...now when that stat doesn't support the argument its OPS+, or whatever stat happens to support and/or detract from the player/s in question.

 

I don't think anyone was arguing that if Tavarez was hypothetically brought here that it would be for his prowess to drive in runs, so I was just curious why OPS+ was the measure which was being used to detract from him.

 

I don't care anymore...I may just go back to arguing the relative merits of Freddy Bynum and Craig Counsell from a few weeks back, it seems just about as relevant at this discussion

 

I think you have a point, kind of. With some guys OBP is more important than SLG (i.e., high order hitters), with OPS = OBP + SLG. OPS+ is just adjusted for the ball park. IMO the park effects can be exagerated and tend to flucuate from year to year. In other words, I'm not sold OPS+ as a predictive stat. I think OPS is just fine to use in many cases.

 

Nevertheless, in order for the Cubs to score runs they need either SLG or OBP and preferably both. A high OPS can be affected by ridicilous SLG and low OBP or vice versa. In either case Tavares provides little.

[goonys evil twin]

Just so I know for future reference...is OPS+ now the only stat that counts now?

 

Does this add anything to the discussion at all?

 

I'm honestly just curious. It seems OBP was the end all be all last year...now when that stat doesn't support the argument its OPS+, or whatever stat happens to support and/or detract from the player/s in question.

 

I don't think anyone was arguing that if Tavarez was hypothetically brought here that it would be for his prowess to drive in runs, so I was just curious why OPS+ was the measure which was being used to detract from him.

 

I don't care anymore...I may just go back to arguing the relative merits of Freddy Bynum and Craig Counsell from a few weeks back, it seems just about as relevant at this discussion

 

I don't see how OBP doesn't support the argument. He and Pierre had virtually the same OBP last year. It's not sub .300 abysmal, but .333 is not close to good. And when it's accompanied by non-existent SLG, it's awful. Randomly saying "if he keeps improving his OBP by .008 every year he'll eventually be good" is meaningless.

 

OBP is the Cubs biggest need, but Taveras doesn't provide that, certainly not anymore than they got last year. SLG is also a problem. And OPS+ is a nice way to judge more all-around production. It's not the end all, but it's a quick and easy way to weed out the worthless (Taveras-75, Pagan - 76) from the quite useful (Church - 113, Murton - 111) and the fantastic (Cabrera - 141).

 

Furthermore, if the Cubs trade for him, they'd be giving up value, so his ~$500,000 price tag is not the only cost, plus, they've got only 1 year left before arbitraiton, after which he'll start making millions, because crap veterans that get playing time are always going to get overpaid.

 

If you had a solid offense, and Taveras was in your system, and you had a need at his position. It's not an awful idea to give him a spot. But once you start trading for this guy, and paying him more than the minimum, the return on your investment goes negative.

[UK1679666180]

I think you have a point, kind of. With some guys OBP is more important than SLG (i.e., high order hitters), with OPS = OBP + SLG. OPS+ is just adjusted for the ball park. IMO the park effects can be exagerated and tend to flucuate from year to year. In other words, I'm not sold OPS+ as a predictive stat. I think OPS is just fine to use in many cases.

 

Nevertheless, in order for the Cubs to score runs they need either SLG or OBP and preferably both. A high OPS can be affected by ridicilous SLG and low OBP or vice versa. In either case Tavares provides little.

 

While there's no true predictive stat, I look for the best overall stat (I prefer XR, but for ease, I'll end up with EqA). Taveras could potentially fill the OBP need at the top as well as a great defensive player in a diff. position to fill, I already mentioned either way he's going to have to improve, which is exactly the same way Pie will have to improve. If he could improve his approach & learn to get out in front and turn on the inside FB, he could become a quality starting CF'er.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I prefer Mr. T over Willy T. in CF.

[Rob]

Just so I know for future reference...is OPS+ now the only stat that counts now?

 

I usually go with VORP and VORPr.

 

Taveras 5.1 VORP, 0.038 VORPr

 

Wilkerson -5.3 VORP, -0.063 VORPr

 

Taveras was better than Wilkerson last year, I see no doubt about that. The question is whether Taveras will be better than Wilkerson again next year, a question which I am inclined to say "no" to.

 

Taveras used to have a very high walk rate in the minors.

 

2002, .120 IsoD

2003, .100 IsoD

2004, .067 IsoD

 

Obviously, pitchers are challenging him more now that they realize he can barely jack the ball out of the infield when they hang a curve, but he does stll have some potential to recover some of that patience.

 

I'd give up a package like Mateo and Harben for Tavares, but I wouldn't give up anything of real value... and I certainly wouldn't plan on keeping Tavares around once Pie becomes ready.

[CubinNY]

I think you have a point, kind of. With some guys OBP is more important than SLG (i.e., high order hitters), with OPS = OBP + SLG. OPS+ is just adjusted for the ball park. IMO the park effects can be exagerated and tend to flucuate from year to year. In other words, I'm not sold OPS+ as a predictive stat. I think OPS is just fine to use in many cases.

 

Nevertheless, in order for the Cubs to score runs they need either SLG or OBP and preferably both. A high OPS can be affected by ridicilous SLG and low OBP or vice versa. In either case Tavares provides little.

 

While there's no true predictive stat, I look for the best overall stat (I prefer XR, but for ease, I'll end up with EqA). Taveras could potentially fill the OBP need at the top as well as a great defensive player in a diff. position to fill, I already mentioned either way he's going to have to improve, which is exactly the same way Pie will have to improve. If he could improve his approach & learn to get out in front and turn on the inside FB, he could become a quality starting CF'er.

 

But Willy's EqA has been

 

.258

.268

.243

 

Well below .260 (league average) for his career. That's not good.

[UK1679666180]

I think you have a point, kind of. With some guys OBP is more important than SLG (i.e., high order hitters), with OPS = OBP + SLG. OPS+ is just adjusted for the ball park. IMO the park effects can be exagerated and tend to flucuate from year to year. In other words, I'm not sold OPS+ as a predictive stat. I think OPS is just fine to use in many cases.

 

Nevertheless, in order for the Cubs to score runs they need either SLG or OBP and preferably both. A high OPS can be affected by ridicilous SLG and low OBP or vice versa. In either case Tavares provides little.

 

While there's no true predictive stat, I look for the best overall stat (I prefer XR, but for ease, I'll end up with EqA). Taveras could potentially fill the OBP need at the top as well as a great defensive player in a diff. position to fill, I already mentioned either way he's going to have to improve, which is exactly the same way Pie will have to improve. If he could improve his approach & learn to get out in front and turn on the inside FB, he could become a quality starting CF'er.

 

But Willy's EqA has been

 

.258

.268

.243

 

Well below .260 (league average) for his career. That's not good.

 

It's not good now, but I would be content w/a an improvement in OBP for the early stages of his career with room to improve on his approach and his other assets (defense and speed) right before he gets in his arby stages. He'll never be a high EqA hitter b/c of his lack of slugging. Any OBP around .350 and he'll be an asset at the top.

[goonys evil twin]

It's not good now, but I would be content w/a an improvement in OBP for the early stages of his career with room to improve on his approach and his other assets (defense and speed) right before he gets in his arby stages. He'll never be a high EqA hitter b/c of his lack of slugging. Any OBP around .350 and he'll be an asset at the top.

 

Well sure, but there's no indication he's ready for such production, and he's 1 year from arbitration. There's not much time to benefit from his inexpensiveness.