Hendry on Sports Central tonight

[CubinNY]

I thought Hendry use to be a scout? What has Angel Pagen ever done to warrent a roster spot, let alone be considered for a starting postion?

 

He looks like Beltran.

 

Looks like Beltran, hits like Beltran's grandfather.

[cheapseats]

Pagan is part of the problem.

 

You forgot to mention that he's not very good defensively.

 

I don't know what the numbers say about him, but the few times I did see him play, he looked as shaky as Murton has ever looked, hesitating, misjudging and misplaying balls like many others. At best, he's average. I don't see how he can be considered defensive replacement level.

 

I was deferring to scouting reports that said he is a good defender. Of course, for example, some scouts say he has a cannon for an arm and other scouts say he has a weak arm. I don't know that he made enough appearances in any outfield position for meaningful data from defensive metrics.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I thought Hendry use to be a scout? What has Angel Pagen ever done to warrent a roster spot, let alone be considered for a starting postion?

 

He looks like Beltran.

 

Looks like Beltran, hits like Beltran's grandmother.

 

Fixed

[TheDude]

So did Hendry say anything else, or was his appearance limited to one phrase about CF?

[RichHillIsABeast]

I thought Hendry use to be a scout? What has Angel Pagen ever done to warrent a roster spot, let alone be considered for a starting postion?

 

Hendry subcribes to the "earn it" policy. Some guys don't get it done in ST, others step up. Pagan stepped it up bigtime.

 

IIRC, the Cubs players were rumored to have really lobbied for Pagan to make the roster. Let's blame the Cubs players for Pagan.

 

Personally, I like Pagan. Good speed. His injury kept him from beating out a lot of infield singles (raising his BA). His defense is fine. His speed makes up for a lot of his indecisions, giving him average range. That's fine. You can learn to read the ball better. You can't learn speed. Pagan showed a some pop last season, which scouts long predicted even if the numbers weren't there.

 

He'd out OPS Pierre in a full season, but that's not saying much. I'd rather have Church, but Pagan in CF is a better option than dealing Jock and putting some runtown vet out there for several million.

 

Pagan isn't high on my list for the CF job, but he's better than some options out there.

[Backtobanks]

Does anyone else think that Hendry mentioned Pagan so he doesn't tip his hand at a CF that he's trying to get in a trade?

[cheapseats]

Does anyone else think that Hendry mentioned Pagan so he doesn't tip his hand at a CF that he's trying to get in a trade?

 

I don't. I really don't think he's that crafty.

[CubinNY]

I thought Hendry use to be a scout? What has Angel Pagen ever done to warrent a roster spot, let alone be considered for a starting postion?

 

Hendry subcribes to the "earn it" policy. Some guys don't get it done in ST, others step up. Pagan stepped it up bigtime.

 

If what you say is true, Hendry is a worse GM than anybody realizes.

 

Spring training is about the absolute worst time to be making decision about your 25 man roster. A great amount of the time teams are playing people who won't even make the 25 man roster and might never make it for even a cup of coffee in MLB, not to mention the limited number of ABs in the six weeks of get in shape, golf after the game, don't go on road trips, split squads, get in to get some work done baseball. Shoot, I've already mentioned some of the myraid problems with evaluating talent during ST.

 

One last thing, if what you say is true Brandon Sing should have been on the 25 man roster out of spring trainging last year. And the year before "Die Hard" what's his name should have been on the 25 man roster.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

One last thing, if what you say is true Brandon Sing should have been on the 25 man roster out of spring trainging last year. And the year before "Die Hard" what's his name should have been on the 25 man roster.

 

Dopirak had a much better spring than did Sing, as did quite a few others. Pagan was actually quite good in spring, hitting for average and power. I don't quite think he deserved a roster spot based on that alone, but he had no options.

[RichHillIsABeast]

I thought Hendry use to be a scout? What has Angel Pagen ever done to warrent a roster spot, let alone be considered for a starting postion?

 

Hendry subcribes to the "earn it" policy. Some guys don't get it done in ST, others step up. Pagan stepped it up bigtime.

 

If what you say is true, Hendry is a worse GM than anybody realizes.

 

Spring training is about the absolute worst time to be making decision about your 25 man roster. A great amount of the time teams are playing people who won't even make the 25 man roster and might never make it for even a cup of coffee in MLB, not to mention the limited number of ABs in the six weeks of get in shape, golf after the game, don't go on road trips, split squads, get in to get some work done baseball. Shoot, I've already mentioned some of the myraid problems with evaluating talent during ST.

 

One last thing, if what you say is true Brandon Sing should have been on the 25 man roster out of spring trainging last year. And the year before "Die Hard" what's his name should have been on the 25 man roster.

 

I think it's silly too, but that's the philosophy of a lot of organizations. Sing didn't do his time in the minors like Pagan and other did. Sing probably didn't have the scouts saying he was ready. You have to be "ready" and put out. Having the necessary qualities your ballclub is seeking is important (Pagan got the edge b/c Dusty/Hendry were high on speed at the time). Die-Hard didn't have that edge and really doesn't project to get it done at the ML level. Pagan was an unknown.

 

Hill was ready last ST and didn't put out. It cost him a slot in the rotation. :evil:

 

Having a guy make the roster as a bench option out of ST isn't bad. It has a limited production impact on your team (may even be a positive in terms of salary). It's an incentive for those who work hard in the minors and can step it up when it counts. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with determining the starting rotation (other than health reasons) or pen out of ST.

 

Wuertz and Hill both should have been on the opening day roster going off performance.

[cheapseats]

 

I think it's silly too, but that's the philosophy of a lot of organizations...

 

Having a guy make the roster as a bench option out of ST isn't bad. It has a limited production impact on your team (may even be a positive in terms of salary).

 

So you think it's silly but it's not bad? Or did you change your mind in the middle of your post?

 

A 700 OPS off the bench IS bad. Pagan took up a roster spot that could have been filled by someone who could actually contribute.

[abuck1220]

I thought Hendry use to be a scout? What has Angel Pagen ever done to warrent a roster spot, let alone be considered for a starting postion?

 

Hendry subcribes to the "earn it" policy. Some guys don't get it done in ST, others step up. Pagan stepped it up bigtime.

 

IIRC, the Cubs players were rumored to have really lobbied for Pagan to make the roster. Let's blame the Cubs players for Pagan.

 

Personally, I like Pagan. Good speed. His injury kept him from beating out a lot of infield singles (raising his BA). His defense is fine. His speed makes up for a lot of his indecisions, giving him average range. That's fine. You can learn to read the ball better. You can't learn speed. Pagan showed a some pop last season, which scouts long predicted even if the numbers weren't there.

 

He'd out OPS Pierre in a full season, but that's not saying much. I'd rather have Church, but Pagan in CF is a better option than dealing Jock and putting some runtown vet out there for several million.

 

Pagan isn't high on my list for the CF job, but he's better than some options out there.

 

so he's in the 'earn it' business except you 'earn it' by having a lucky two week run of 20 ab's in spring training? and nevermind the thousands of previous terrible at bats? that's a pretty stupid way to evaluate players.

 

and pagan is brutal defensively. worse than murton, worse than jones.

[BigbadB]

I thought Hendry use to be a scout? What has Angel Pagen ever done to warrent a roster spot, let alone be considered for a starting postion?

 

Hendry subcribes to the "earn it" policy. Some guys don't get it done in ST, others step up. Pagan stepped it up bigtime.

 

If what you say is true, Hendry is a worse GM than anybody realizes.

 

Spring training is about the absolute worst time to be making decision about your 25 man roster. A great amount of the time teams are playing people who won't even make the 25 man roster and might never make it for even a cup of coffee in MLB, not to mention the limited number of ABs in the six weeks of get in shape, golf after the game, don't go on road trips, split squads, get in to get some work done baseball. Shoot, I've already mentioned some of the myraid problems with evaluating talent during ST.

 

One last thing, if what you say is true Brandon Sing should have been on the 25 man roster out of spring trainging last year. And the year before "Die Hard" what's his name should have been on the 25 man roster.

 

You list a lot of good reasons for why ST shouldn't be the be all/end all of earning a job at the major league level, but the biggest one to me is that Arizona and the dry air makes a lot of guys look better than they are. They typically play day games in warm weather and the ball off the bat there is nothing like a hot, humid day in the Midwest.

 

If Chase Field didn't have a roof on it through a huge percentage of the summer (besides fans dying of heat exposure), it would battle Coors Field as the best hitting park in baseball.

[cheapseats]

It's an incentive for those who work hard in the minors and can step it up when it counts.

 

Not so much aimed at the poster, but this statement is what kills me.

 

"When it counts" is the hundreds of regular season atbats (whether in the majors or minors). Judging a player's value by a handful of atbats during an arbitrary period of time is stupid. Neifi Perez was awesome when he joined the Cubs in 2004, but he had a history of sucking that indicated that he would continue to suck.

[abuck1220]

 

I think it's silly too, but that's the philosophy of a lot of organizations. Sing didn't do his time in the minors like Pagan and other did. Sing probably didn't have the scouts saying he was ready. You have to be "ready" and put out. Having the necessary qualities your ballclub is seeking is important (Pagan got the edge b/c Dusty/Hendry were high on speed at the time). Die-Hard didn't have that edge and really doesn't project to get it done at the ML level. Pagan was an unknown.

 

wow. how can pagan be said to have "done his time" in the minors yet still be considered an unknown? he had 2500 mediocre at best minor league ab's...i think it was pretty clear what he brought to the table (not much).

[TheDude]

Does anyone else think that Hendry mentioned Pagan so he doesn't tip his hand at a CF that he's trying to get in a trade?

 

I don't. I really don't think he's that crafty.

 

What's crafty about that? That wouldn't accomplish anything.

[cheapseats]

Does anyone else think that Hendry mentioned Pagan so he doesn't tip his hand at a CF that he's trying to get in a trade?

 

I don't. I really don't think he's that crafty.

 

What's crafty about that? That wouldn't accomplish anything.

 

I guess it's better than publicly badmouthing your own players. Maybe it is possible to get other teams to overvalue your players by talking them up. I'd hope other GM's have more objective means of evaluating talent, but this is baseball...

[RichHillIsABeast]

 

I think it's silly too, but that's the philosophy of a lot of organizations...

 

Having a guy make the roster as a bench option out of ST isn't bad. It has a limited production impact on your team (may even be a positive in terms of salary).

 

So you think it's silly but it's not bad? Or did you change your mind in the middle of your post?

 

A 700 OPS off the bench IS bad. Pagan took up a roster spot that could have been filled by someone who could actually contribute.

 

I didn't change my mind in the middle of my post. The overall policy of determining roster spots in ST is silly. I don't have a problem with BENCH spots going to deserving players in ST as it has limited impact. I do have a problem with SP and RP being determined by ST.

 

A 700 OPS off the bench doesn't cost you that many runs. I think it's worth it for the psychological impact on your farm system. If you perform, you will get a spot in the show. Feel free to disagree with that.

[RichHillIsABeast]

It's an incentive for those who work hard in the minors and can step it up when it counts.

 

Not so much aimed at the poster, but this statement is what kills me.

 

"When it counts" is the hundreds of regular season atbats (whether in the majors or minors). Judging a player's value by a handful of atbats during an arbitrary period of time is stupid. Neifi Perez was awesome when he joined the Cubs in 2004, but he had a history of sucking that indicated that he would continue to suck.

 

It's also playing the hot hand, as well as rewarding recent performance.

 

It's not an "arbitrary period of time." Players know what is at stake and what they can get if they perform. It's a litmus test for higher pressure situations. Everyone knows when ST is. It's not some arbitrary period of time in a player's career.

[goonys evil twin]

It's an incentive for those who work hard in the minors and can step it up when it counts.

 

Not so much aimed at the poster, but this statement is what kills me.

 

"When it counts" is the hundreds of regular season atbats (whether in the majors or minors). Judging a player's value by a handful of atbats during an arbitrary period of time is stupid. Neifi Perez was awesome when he joined the Cubs in 2004, but he had a history of sucking that indicated that he would continue to suck.

 

It's also playing the hot hand, as well as rewarding recent performance.

 

It's not an "arbitrary period of time." Players know what is at stake and what they can get if they perform. It's a litmus test for higher pressure situations. Everyone knows when ST is. It's not some arbitrary period of time in a player's career.

 

Spring training is not high pressure. It is a terrible way to judge whether a guy can step up when it counts, the variables are enormous, comparing production in the spring is worthless.

[CubinNY]

It's not an "arbitrary period of time." Players know what is at stake and what they can get if they perform. It's a litmus test for higher pressure situations.

 

Yes, with the pitchers jogging in the outfield, the manager signing autographs, and 1/2 the ball club there I could see how the pressure could get to a kid.

 

Every game I've evered played whether it be a playoff game or beer league softball I've tried my damnedest. I really don't think guys who've played the game their entire life and are getting paid are any different.

[RichHillIsABeast]

 

I think it's silly too, but that's the philosophy of a lot of organizations. Sing didn't do his time in the minors like Pagan and other did. Sing probably didn't have the scouts saying he was ready. You have to be "ready" and put out. Having the necessary qualities your ballclub is seeking is important (Pagan got the edge b/c Dusty/Hendry were high on speed at the time). Die-Hard didn't have that edge and really doesn't project to get it done at the ML level. Pagan was an unknown.

 

wow. how can pagan be said to have "done his time" in the minors yet still be considered an unknown? he had 2500 mediocre at best minor league ab's...i think it was pretty clear what he brought to the table (not much).

 

Pagan spent 6 years in the minors. That's "doing your time." He never made it to the show, meaning it was an unknown how he'd perform at the ML level. That's all I meant by calling him an "unknown." It's not like he was a career AAAA player.

 

He hit 5 HR in 170 AB. That certainly wasn't a clear expectation from his minor league numbers. I was pleasantly surprised by that.

[RichHillIsABeast]

It's not an "arbitrary period of time." Players know what is at stake and what they can get if they perform. It's a litmus test for higher pressure situations.

 

Yes, with the pitchers jogging in the outfield, the manager signing autographs, and 1/2 the ball club there I could see how the pressure could get to a kid.

 

Every game I've evered played whether it be a playoff game or beer league softball I've tried my damnedest. I really don't think guys who've played the game their entire life and are getting paid are any different.

 

Players know they are auditioning for a job. You don't get infinite chances in a career. That's pressure.

 

Some guys step it up in pressure situations and others wilt. It's one thing to put up numbers in unstressful minor league games, when it's just a game. It's another when your whole career and all the work you've put in are on the line.

[goonys evil twin]

Pagan spent 6 years in the minors. That's "doing your time." He never made it to the show, meaning it was an unknown how he'd perform at the ML level. That's all I meant by calling him an "unknown." It's not like he was a career AAAA player.

 

He hit 5 HR in 170 AB. That certainly wasn't a clear expectation from his minor league numbers. I was pleasantly surprised by that.

 

He had a fluke 2 HR game, and other than that he was predictably awful.

[goonys evil twin]

It's not an "arbitrary period of time." Players know what is at stake and what they can get if they perform. It's a litmus test for higher pressure situations.

 

Yes, with the pitchers jogging in the outfield, the manager signing autographs, and 1/2 the ball club there I could see how the pressure could get to a kid.

 

Every game I've evered played whether it be a playoff game or beer league softball I've tried my damnedest. I really don't think guys who've played the game their entire life and are getting paid are any different.

 

Players know they are auditioning for a job. You don't get infinite chances in a career. That's pressure.

 

Some guys step it up in pressure situations and others wilt. It's one thing to put up numbers in unstressful minor league games, when it's just a game. It's another when your whole career and all the work you've put in are on the line.

 

Your career is not on the line in spring training. You are grossly overvaluing spring training.