John Kruk advocating cheating or not?

[chuckywang]

During Baseball Tonight, John Kruk said something like "If you're going to cork your bat or use pine tar, hide it better."

 

I was struck by this comment being made in some sort of official capacity. It seems that Kruk is not taking a hard stance against cheating in baseball. In other words, he's saying "If you're going to cheat, don't get caught." Historically, is this baseball's mentality towards cheating? Gaylord Perry was notorious for throwing the spitball, so much so that we talk about it not with a disparaging tone of voice, but with an anecdotal tone of voice. It's become part of baseball lore, and he's still in the Hall of Fame.

 

But it does bring up an interesting topic of conversation. Is cheating a "part" of the game? Is using pine tar or a corked bat or throwing the spitball baseball's version of driving over the speed limit?

[Pinktermite]

I don't think cheating is part of the game. It happens, and is punished when people are caught doing it. Good analogy with the speeding thing.

[Yeti]

if you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough :wink:

[TheDude]

I think the word you're looking for is 'sarcasm'.

[The Voice of Reason]

I think Kruk is very knowledgeable when it comes to cheating - afterall, he was a teammate of Lenny Dykstra.

 

La Russa's common sense view:

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/jeffgordon/story/C9DF1A27C34A86DF86257210007DB8E6?OpenDocument

 

So why did he go easy in Rogers? La Russa fleshed out his decision -– and made lots of sense doing so.

 

 

Pitchers routinely use sticky substances to improve their grip. A former major league pitcher laughed at Rogers’ “clump of dirt” explanation Monday, but admitted that he used to grip his sticky, pine-tarred bat between innings on cold nights.

 

La Russa assured reporters that pitchers routinely use sticky substances from the first day of spring training to the end of the World Series.

 

La Russa believes, to a degree, in the adage that you aren’t competing if you’re not cheating.

 

“There’s a line that defines competition,” he said. “You can sneak over the line because we all go for an edge. When you go far, it’s abuse.”

Edited October 24, 2006 by The Voice of Reason

[daske17]

I think Kruk is very knowledgeable when it comes to cheating - afterall, he was a teammate of Lenny Dykstra.

 

La Russa's common sense view:

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/jeffgordon/story/C9DF1A27C34A86DF86257210007DB8E6?OpenDocument

 

So why did he go easy in Rogers? La Russa fleshed out his decision -– and made lots of sense doing so.

 

 

Pitchers routinely use sticky substances to improve their grip. A former major league pitcher laughed at Rogers’ “clump of dirt” explanation Monday, but admitted that he used to grip his sticky, pine-tarred bat between innings on cold nights.

 

La Russa assured reporters that pitchers routinely use sticky substances from the first day of spring training to the end of the World Series.

 

La Russa believes, to a degree, in the adage that you aren’t competing if you’re not cheating.

 

“There’s a line that defines competition,” he said. “You can sneak over the line because we all go for an edge. When you go far, it’s abuse.”

 

Says the man who protested Julian Tavarez's pine tar-infested cap last year.

[Soul]

LaRussa: routinely in the playoffs & World Series, believes in pushing the limits of the rules.

 

Cubs: nearly always a junk team, believe in good-natured beer-drinking fun and being nice guys.

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmm. I think I prefer the former.

[B]

Kruk is an idiot. Who cares what he says?

[NewUserName]

What LaRussa is really saying is that I didnt have Rogers checked because I dont want my pitchers checked.

 

Something else that is missing in all the discussion I have been hearing on sports radio about this. Its not against the rules until a ball is doctored. I am not niave and saying that Roger is innocent, I am just saying that people who say that he should have been ejected are not correct. If a pitched ball was found to have pine tar or whatever on it then he should have been ejected. Not just because FOX found it with their cameras.

[Catman61]

What LaRussa is really saying is that I didnt have Rogers checked because I dont want my pitchers checked.

 

Something else that is missing in all the discussion I have been hearing on sports radio about this. Its not against the rules until a ball is doctored. I am not niave and saying that Roger is innocent, I am just saying that people who say that he should have been ejected are not correct. If a pitched ball was found to have pine tar or whatever on it then he should have been ejected. Not just because FOX found it with their cameras.

 

Then how and why was Tavarez ejected and suspended? No ball was found to have any foreign substance on it only the cap allegedly had pine tar on it.

[TruffleShuffle]

I don't have a problem with him having a little pine tar on his hand to get a better grip on the ball. After all, most of the batters he's facing are probalby on HGH, so he's just trying to level the playing field.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Something else that is missing in all the discussion I have been hearing on sports radio about this. Its not against the rules until a ball is doctored.

 

That's not true.

[The Voice of Reason]

I don't have a problem with him having a little pine tar on his hand to get a better grip on the ball. After all, most of the batters he's facing are probalby on HGH, so he's just trying to level the playing field.

 

According to ESPN and Tony LaRussa, most pitchers use pine tar (just usually not as blatantly as Rogers) giving credence to the words of LaRussa "you aren’t competing if you’re not cheating."

[ToupeeOnFire]

If it were a corked bat or steroids, he'd be singing a different tune.

 

When pitchers cheat, they're considered colorful.

[Soul]

There's a double standard, but it's in favor of the hitters, not the pitchers.

 

Think about it. Why should hitters be able to use pine tar then? How about body armor? Hitters use it for the same reason----to get a better grip.

 

Yet if a pitcher tries to, then he's demonized and called a cheater.

 

Double-standard. If hitters can use it to grip their bats better, then pitchers should be able to use it for the same reason. But the double-standard lives because TV ratings go down when it's the 8th inning and only a couple runs have been scored. Silly.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

There's a double standard, but it's in favor of the hitters, not the pitchers.

 

Think about it. Why should hitters be able to use pine tar then? How about body armor? Hitters use it for the same reason----to get a better grip.

 

Yet if a pitcher tries to, then he's demonized and called a cheater.

 

Double-standard. If hitters can use it to grip their bats better, then pitchers should be able to use it for the same reason. But the double-standard lives because TV ratings go down when it's the 8th inning and only a couple runs have been scored. Silly.

 

You don't see the difference between pine tar for a grip on a bat, and banning a pitcher from using foreign substances?

[TruffleShuffle]

There's a double standard, but it's in favor of the hitters, not the pitchers.

 

Think about it. Why should hitters be able to use pine tar then? How about body armor? Hitters use it for the same reason----to get a better grip.

 

Yet if a pitcher tries to, then he's demonized and called a cheater.

 

Double-standard. If hitters can use it to grip their bats better, then pitchers should be able to use it for the same reason. But the double-standard lives because TV ratings go down when it's the 8th inning and only a couple runs have been scored. Silly.

 

You don't see the difference between pine tar for a grip on a bat, and banning a pitcher from using foreign substances?

 

If he's using the pine tar to alter the motion of the ball, then yes, that's a problem. But if he's using it to get a better grip on the ball, then he's doing nothing different than the batter is doing.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

There's a double standard, but it's in favor of the hitters, not the pitchers.

 

Think about it. Why should hitters be able to use pine tar then? How about body armor? Hitters use it for the same reason----to get a better grip.

 

Yet if a pitcher tries to, then he's demonized and called a cheater.

 

Double-standard. If hitters can use it to grip their bats better, then pitchers should be able to use it for the same reason. But the double-standard lives because TV ratings go down when it's the 8th inning and only a couple runs have been scored. Silly.

 

You don't see the difference between pine tar for a grip on a bat, and banning a pitcher from using foreign substances?

 

If he's using the pine tar to alter the motion of the ball, then yes, that's a problem. But if he's using it to get a better grip on the ball, then he's doing nothing different than the batter is doing.

 

The problem is that's an impossible line to draw. Much easier to do on a bat(George Brett).

[RichHillIsABeast]

There's a double standard, but it's in favor of the hitters, not the pitchers.

 

Think about it. Why should hitters be able to use pine tar then? How about body armor? Hitters use it for the same reason----to get a better grip.

 

Yet if a pitcher tries to, then he's demonized and called a cheater.

 

Double-standard. If hitters can use it to grip their bats better, then pitchers should be able to use it for the same reason. But the double-standard lives because TV ratings go down when it's the 8th inning and only a couple runs have been scored. Silly.

 

You don't see the difference between pine tar for a grip on a bat, and banning a pitcher from using foreign substances?

 

If he's using the pine tar to alter the motion of the ball, then yes, that's a problem. But if he's using it to get a better grip on the ball, then he's doing nothing different than the batter is doing.

 

Yeah, let's not let hitters use pine tar ever again. That way some unsuspecting fan or athlete can take a bat to the head.

 

It's a safety rule as much as it helps the hitters control the bat.

 

Pine tar on bats doesn't change your ability to hit, only to hold onto the freaking object.

 

Pine tar (plus other stuff) on a ball changes a pitchers stuff. It's pretty noticeable.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I don't think cheating is part of the game. It happens, and is punished when people are caught doing it. Good analogy with the speeding thing.

 

You're being naive. Cheating is a part of the game, so players/teams hide is better, and there is alot of cheating that goes unnotice. But to think "is not a part of the game", you really are being naive.

[Soul]

There's a double standard, but it's in favor of the hitters, not the pitchers.

 

Think about it. Why should hitters be able to use pine tar then? How about body armor? Hitters use it for the same reason----to get a better grip.

 

Yet if a pitcher tries to, then he's demonized and called a cheater.

 

Double-standard. If hitters can use it to grip their bats better, then pitchers should be able to use it for the same reason. But the double-standard lives because TV ratings go down when it's the 8th inning and only a couple runs have been scored. Silly.

 

You don't see the difference between pine tar for a grip on a bat, and banning a pitcher from using foreign substances?

 

If he's using the pine tar to alter the motion of the ball, then yes, that's a problem. But if he's using it to get a better grip on the ball, then he's doing nothing different than the batter is doing.

 

Yeah, let's not let hitters use pine tar ever again. That way some unsuspecting fan or athlete can take a bat to the head.

 

It's a safety rule as much as it helps the hitters control the bat.

 

Pine tar on bats doesn't change your ability to hit, only to hold onto the freaking object.

 

Pine tar (plus other stuff) on a ball changes a pitchers stuff. It's pretty noticeable.

 

You don't think having a better grip on the bat helps you hit?

 

Sorry, but I don't see equity when one player can use foreign substances on their equipment and all kinds of body armor and yet another can't. And I never will, because it just isn't equitable.

[series65cubsfan]

I don't think cheating is part of the game. It happens, and is punished when people are caught doing it. Good analogy with the speeding thing.

 

You're being naive. Cheating is a part of the game, so players/teams hide is better, and there is alot of cheating that goes unnotice. But to think "is not a part of the game", you really are being naive.

 

I don't think it's part of the game, however, I know it happens. Looking for an analogy, I'll go to football. On any given down, if you look, you'll probably see a hold. Does it get called? I think, most times, it doesn't. The gross ones probably do however. At least the one that have an effect on the play do.

 

I remember a few years back Kerry Wood was throwing really well. His curve ball was just sick. The umpire had to check his ball a few times, IIRC, for scuffing or substances. There was none but when you see a ball break that much, it's up to you (the umpire) to check. Did Kenny Rogers have that type of pitch? In my mind, no. Good pitches but not ones I would check for doctoring on.

[NewUserName]

Something else that is missing in all the discussion I have been hearing on sports radio about this. Its not against the rules until a ball is doctored.

 

That's not true.

 

If I am wrong I will admit it but I am pretty sure the rule says something along the lines of a pitched ball being expactorated on and so on and so on. I dont think there is a rule in baseball that says a Pitcher cannot have stuff on his hand.

 

I dont remember all the details of the Taveraz case but in the case of Joe Neikro and I think Rick Honeycutt the balls were checked first. They were found to have been altered and than they examined the pitchers.

[Soul]

He just went to blowing in his hand, and that provided the grip he needed, which he then proceeded to use to completely punk the Cards for another what? 5 innings?

 

I'll bet he didn't think anything of it. Pine tar is used, probably by every pitcher in the league when it gets cold.

 

This whole thing is becoming ridiculous. Hitters coming up, slathering up their bats with stickum, wearing better armor than our soliders in Iraq, roiding up like mad until they look like they're going to pop. Then Rogers uses a little dab of pine tar so the ball doesn't fly out of his hand in the cold and suddenly he's a demon.

 

Wow. Am I seriously the only one who can see the double (triple? quadruple?) standard here?

[Yeti]

Something else that is missing in all the discussion I have been hearing on sports radio about this. Its not against the rules until a ball is doctored.

 

That's not true.

 

If I am wrong I will admit it but I am pretty sure the rule says something along the lines of a pitched ball being expactorated on and so on and so on. I dont think there is a rule in baseball that says a Pitcher cannot have stuff on his hand.

 

I dont remember all the details of the Taveraz case but in the case of Joe Neikro and I think Rick Honeycutt the balls were checked first. They were found to have been altered and than they examined the pitchers.

if the bolded part is correct, why then is a pitcher refrained from "going to the mouth" while on the mound?