Lou Piniella already interviewed W/Hendry Per Bruce Levine

[CubinNY]

 

We have late 90's Griffey, A-Rod, Big Unit, Buhner, and Edgar Martinez? Sweet.

 

In 2001, when the Mariners won a league record 116 games, Piniella was without Griffey (traded to Cincy in the winter of '99), ARod (signed with Texas the winter of 2000), and Johnson (signed in Arizona in '99). He did have Edgar and a washed up Jay Buhner (played in 19 games that season).

 

I'm not a Piniella fan, but lets make sure the facts are straight. He managed one of the best regular season teams of all time and didn't have the big weapons any more.

 

I was clearly talking about the late 90's team. You want to talk 2001, lets do that. We have nowhere near the talent of that team either. His original point was that Piniella has proven he can win with a mix of vets and youth. The obvious point of my sarcastic comment was only when he has great players. In reality anyone is going to win with those teams. If we assemble a team that has the same level of talent as the Griffey, Unit, A-Rod, Buhner, Martinez Mariners or the Ichiro, Edgar, (Juiced up) Boone, Garcia/Moyer/Sele 2001 Mariners we will win if anyone manages, Piniella and Dusty Baker included.

 

In 2001 Ichiro hit .350/.381/.457

Boone hit .331/.372/.578

Edgar hit .306/.423/..543

Olerud had an OBP over .400

Cameron added 25 HR's

 

3 starters went over 200 IP with sub 4 ERA's in the AL in the "juiced ball era." The Bullpen was one of the best in baseball. How's that for facts?

 

Does anyone think Sweet Lou was the reason why they won 116 games? I don't.

 

I love how when teams win managers are genuises and when they lose they are worthless. MLB managers for the most part are interchangable. Their job is to manage a bullpen and to know how to fill out a lineup card. Amazingly some of them can't do that. If you give any manager great talent, he will win. If you give any manager poor talent, he will lose. Jim Leyland is a sub .500 career manager (another fact), yet this season he is the second coming. Why? Because he has a really talented team.

 

So the bottom line is this: Can Piniella win if we give him a really talented team? Sure. Is he going to be the reason why they win? No way. Do we have a really talented team? Absolutly not. So do I want to spend big money on Piniella who has a reputation of working pitchers like Dusty, has freely admitted on Fox Broadcasts to not being a fan of OBP and not knowing what WHIP is? Heck no!

 

Well written reply. specifically the bolded part.

 

I don't want a manager double switching in the 6th, 7th, or 8th inning for defensive purposes.

 

I don't want a manager going with the "hot hand" in the bullpen.

 

I don't want a manager putting a guy at the top of the order simply becuse he is fast.

 

I don't want a manger allowing a pitcher to pitch after his mechanics start breaking down.

 

But more than anything else, I'll take one of those types if the team has enough talent to overcome the mistakes a manger makes, simply to justify his position and salary.

[nilodnayr]

 

We have late 90's Griffey, A-Rod, Big Unit, Buhner, and Edgar Martinez? Sweet.

 

In 2001, when the Mariners won a league record 116 games, Piniella was without Griffey (traded to Cincy in the winter of '99), ARod (signed with Texas the winter of 2000), and Johnson (signed in Arizona in '99). He did have Edgar and a washed up Jay Buhner (played in 19 games that season).

 

I'm not a Piniella fan, but lets make sure the facts are straight. He managed one of the best regular season teams of all time and didn't have the big weapons any more.

 

I was clearly talking about the late 90's team. You want to talk 2001, lets do that. We have nowhere near the talent of that team either. His original point was that Piniella has proven he can win with a mix of vets and youth. The obvious point of my sarcastic comment was only when he has great players. In reality anyone is going to win with those teams. If we assemble a team that has the same level of talent as the Griffey, Unit, A-Rod, Buhner, Martinez Mariners or the Ichiro, Edgar, (Juiced up) Boone, Garcia/Moyer/Sele 2001 Mariners we will win if anyone manages, Piniella and Dusty Baker included.

 

In 2001 Ichiro hit .350/.381/.457

Boone hit .331/.372/.578

Edgar hit .306/.423/..543

Olerud had an OBP over .400

Cameron added 25 HR's

 

3 starters went over 200 IP with sub 4 ERA's in the AL in the "juiced ball era." The Bullpen was one of the best in baseball. How's that for facts?

 

Does anyone think Sweet Lou was the reason why they won 116 games? I don't.

 

I love how when teams win managers are genuises and when they lose they are worthless. MLB managers for the most part are interchangable. Their job is to manage a bullpen and to know how to fill out a lineup card. Amazingly some of them can't do that. If you give any manager great talent, he will win. If you give any manager poor talent, he will lose. Jim Leyland is a sub .500 career manager (another fact), yet this season he is the second coming. Why? Because he has a really talented team.

 

So the bottom line is this: Can Piniella win if we give him a really talented team? Sure. Is he going to be the reason why they win? No way. Do we have a really talented team? Absolutly not. So do I want to spend big money on Piniella who has a reputation of working pitchers like Dusty, has freely admitted on Fox Broadcasts to not being a fan of OBP and not knowing what WHIP is? Heck no!

 

I completely agree, we just all over anyone who measures a pitchers results by wins, why are we letting people who measure a managers results by wins get a free pass? At least pitchers have around 40% control, a manager probably as 1/10th of that. All we ask of a manager is to put the team in a position to win. A manager that bats Neifi and Macias at the top of the lineup does not do that, regardless of how many games he won previously with Bonds and Kent.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I would actually be very pleased with Girardi. Why is there such a split opinion about him. It seems as if its either "we love girardi" or "girardi is the second coming of baker"

 

...maybe thats stretching it. But the fact remains the opinion is really split. I know the Pro-girardi argument...whats the anti? His shakey relationship with the Florida ownership? If so, werent all of us just a few months ago talking about how terrible the florida ownership was?

 

Questionable personnel decisions - especially in terms of pitching, staters vs. relievers.

Dusty-like in treating young pitcher's health (brought a rookie back into a game after an 80-minute rain delay!)

Might be too Buck Showalter-like in terms of discipline.

Conventional thinking on the SABR side of things (though I think we're not sure how conventional he really is).

Pro-Girardi folks give him too much credit for the Marlins' relative success in 2006.

 

All in all, I don't think we personally have enough information to be decidedly pro or anti-Girardi without allowing some bias to come in.

 

Didn't that rookie then go on the dl? I'm not at all sure of the specifics of the incident but I swear I heard that was one of the reasons he was going to be fired??

 

Correct. We're talking about Josh Johnson, who came back after the delay and ended up leaving the game with a strained forearm.

[Soriano12]

Yeah, Girardi was SO careless with Johnson

 

"If there is a little strain, he won't pitch at all the rest of the year," manager Joe Girardi said Tuesday. "He played catch [on Monday] and he still felt a little stiff, so I'm not going to start him [saturday]. It's not worth it." Especially disappointing is that the injury apparently will prevent him from qualifying for the ERA title. He currently ranks fourth in the NL with a 3.10 ERA in 157 innings.

 

 

That really sounds like a guy that is reckless with young arms.

 

Yeah, he shouldn't have brought him out after the delay, but after that he was nothing but protective of Johnson.

 

The anit-Girardi spin is getting out of control.

[Soriano12]

also, outside of Willis, no pitcher on Florida came close to even sniffing 200 innings.

[CubinNY]

Yeah, Girardi was SO careless with Johnson

 

"If there is a little strain, he won't pitch at all the rest of the year," manager Joe Girardi said Tuesday. "He played catch [on Monday] and he still felt a little stiff, so I'm not going to start him [saturday]. It's not worth it." Especially disappointing is that the injury apparently will prevent him from qualifying for the ERA title. He currently ranks fourth in the NL with a 3.10 ERA in 157 innings.

 

 

That really sounds like a guy that is reckless with young arms.

 

Don't let the facts get in the way. The fact is he let a guy pitch after an hour and change rain delay. To me what is even more damaging is that he's seen this happen before when he was a player. He was catching Leiber when Baylor sent him out after the rain delay.

 

Learning from past mistakes is a good thing. Repeating them is a bad thing.

[Soriano12]

Yeah, Girardi was SO careless with Johnson

 

"If there is a little strain, he won't pitch at all the rest of the year," manager Joe Girardi said Tuesday. "He played catch [on Monday] and he still felt a little stiff, so I'm not going to start him [saturday]. It's not worth it." Especially disappointing is that the injury apparently will prevent him from qualifying for the ERA title. He currently ranks fourth in the NL with a 3.10 ERA in 157 innings.

 

 

That really sounds like a guy that is reckless with young arms.

 

Don't let the fact get in the way. The fact is he let a guy pitch after an hour and change rain delay.

 

That single fact is not going to convince me he is reckless with young arms.

 

Like I said, none of their arms were overworked this season, and they wil

all be ready to go in 07, Johnson included.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

You've got to be kidding me. He let a rookie go out and pitch some more after an 82-minute rain delay - something he saw happen to Jon Lieber that pretty much iced his need for TJS in 2002. He was reckless and jeapordized Johnson's career.

 

Whatever his attitude is to pitch counts, IP and the like, he risked the career of Josh Johnson doing that.

[Soriano12]

He was reckless and jeapordized Johnson's career.

 

Whatever his attitude is to pitch counts, IP and the like, he risked the career of Josh Johnson doing that.

 

Now its down to simply what if's? Seriously, that Johnson incident is really getting overblown. He made a mistake as a manager. It's done. He took correct action after the matter. Johnson will be one of Florida's top arms in

2007.

 

If you wanna bash a manager(who really did jeopardize a young arm)

look at Mr. Gardhenhire(sp?)

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

It's funny how some people love the ex-Cub factor so much that they minimize all faults of such candidate that they would be pointing out in anyone else.

[Wilmo]

As I watch the Tigers add another run to their lead over the Yankees today, I thought, what about Joe Torre to replace Baker. If the Yankees lose this series to the Tigers, I really wouldn't be surprised to see Torre get fired.

 

Then I thought about why he would get fired and I have to ask the question. Has anyone ever did less with more? They haven't won the series since 2000, although they have made the playoffs every year of his tenure. But with a payroll consistently almost doubling every team in the league should he have done more? I guess I'm starting to think like a Yankee fan now.

 

So what does everyone think, first does Torre get fired with a loss to the Tigers? And, second would you want him as a replacement for Baker?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

No on Joe Torre.

[Soriano12]

It's funny how some people love the ex-Cub factor so much that they minimize all faults of such candidate that they would be pointing out in anyone else.

 

I agree I am coming off as a Girardi-nut hugger, but if I see something posted about him that is blown out of proportion, or a myth. I am going to call it out.

[Bruno7481]

Girardi isn't even the best choice, so if you want to bitch and moan about them passing over a mediocre choice, go ahead.

 

Your opinion.

 

He has his, as do others.

 

Everybody is entitled to "bitch and moan" if they want. I'm sure you will once the hire somebody not named Dierker.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I don't think it's a myth that he jeopardized the career of a young pitcher. It isn't a myth that he had a run-in with his superiors. It isn't a myth that he espouses conventional wisdom and gives away too many outs.

 

Whether or not he's a control-freak is up for interpretation.

 

The fact is, all of these are legitimate concerns. Had we more of a track record to judge him upon, we might find some to be overblown. Yet, as the record stands these are all concerns which detract from Girardi's credit.

 

In fact, the only real thing he has to his credit is that he managed a team that many felt wasn't as good as it was to an under 500 record.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Girardi isn't even the best choice, so if you want to bitch and moan about them passing over a mediocre choice, go ahead.

 

Your opinion.

 

He has his, as do others.

 

Everybody is entitled to "bitch and moan" if they want. I'm sure you will once the hire somebody not named Dierker.

 

Actually, I'm pretty certain they won't hire Dierker. That's a shame. I'm more likely to bitch and moan that won't even interview Dierker.

 

My issue was with "they'll hear from me," like the Cubs will give a damn.

[Bruno7481]

I don't think it's a myth that he jeopardized the career of a young pitcher. It isn't a myth that he had a run-in with his superiors. It isn't a myth that he espouses conventional wisdom and gives away too many outs.

 

Whether or not he's a control-freak is up for interpretation.

 

The fact is, all of these are legitimate concerns. Had we more of a track record to judge him upon, we might find some to be overblown. Yet, as the record stands these are all concerns which detract from Girardi's credit.

 

In fact, the only real thing he has to his credit is that he managed a team that many felt wasn't as good as it was to an under 500 record.

 

He told Loria to quiet down and let him handle the umpires. Good for him.

 

If you could point to one signle shred of evidence to support he is a control freak you'd have a much stronger argument in that regard.

 

Again, it won't upset me at all if he isn't hired, but he is a viable option.

[Bruno7481]

Girardi isn't even the best choice, so if you want to bitch and moan about them passing over a mediocre choice, go ahead.

 

Your opinion.

 

He has his, as do others.

 

Everybody is entitled to "bitch and moan" if they want. I'm sure you will once the hire somebody not named Dierker.

 

Actually, I'm pretty certain they won't hire Dierker. That's a shame. I'm more likely to bitch and moan that won't even interview Dierker.

 

My issue was with "they'll hear from me," like the Cubs will give a damn.

 

Understood, I thought that was over the top as well.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I don't think it's a myth that he jeopardized the career of a young pitcher. It isn't a myth that he had a run-in with his superiors. It isn't a myth that he espouses conventional wisdom and gives away too many outs.

 

Whether or not he's a control-freak is up for interpretation.

 

The fact is, all of these are legitimate concerns. Had we more of a track record to judge him upon, we might find some to be overblown. Yet, as the record stands these are all concerns which detract from Girardi's credit.

 

In fact, the only real thing he has to his credit is that he managed a team that many felt wasn't as good as it was to an under 500 record.

 

He told Loria to quiet down and let him handle the umpires. Good for him.

 

If you could point to one signle shred of evidence to support he is a control freak you'd have a much stronger argument in that regard.

 

Again, it won't upset me at all if he isn't hired, but he is a viable option.

 

 

Of course he's viable. I just don't think he's the best as I've seen espoused at every turn. I certainly don't think that the Cubs will be making a monumental mistake not hiring him. In fact, there are likely lesser known guys like Mills and Washington which would be equally good, if not better hires. I definitely don't think this hire is a "match in heaven."

 

Well, I have introduced evidence that he's a control freak, you just choose not to trust the word of Beinfest.

[A New Era]

You've got to be kidding me. He let a rookie go out and pitch some more after an 82-minute rain delay - something he saw happen to Jon Lieber that pretty much iced his need for TJS in 2002. He was reckless and jeapordized Johnson's career.

 

Whatever his attitude is to pitch counts, IP and the like, he risked the career of Josh Johnson doing that.

 

Yeah, but this is the first time he has been manager in that situation. I think Girardi is smart enough to learn from that and probably won't do it again. I base this on just the way he talks, and my assumptions as to his intelligence.

 

Dusty already ruined Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Chad Fox, and I wouldn't be suprised if Zambrano had some major DL time next year thanks to Dusty and his constantly letting him pitch 8 innings and more than 120 pitches, all the damn time.

[Soriano12]

Actually, I'm pretty certain they won't hire Dierker. That's a shame. I'm more likely to bitch and moan that won't even interview Dierker.

 

 

Is it they won't interview him, or he won't interview with the Cubs?

 

Does he want to even coach again? Anywhere?

[CaliforniaRaisin]

He was reckless and jeapordized Johnson's career.

 

Whatever his attitude is to pitch counts, IP and the like, he risked the career of Josh Johnson doing that.

 

Now its down to simply what if's? Seriously, that Johnson incident is really getting overblown. He made a mistake as a manager. It's done. He took correct action after the matter. Johnson will be one of Florida's top arms in

2007.

 

He made a mistake that, as CubinNY pointed out, he's seen made before (and caused great damage to Lieber).

 

He made a really big mistake, one that shows poor judgement in regards to pitcher's health. We don't know that Girardi corrected his action - your quote indicates that Johnson won't pitch if it's a little sprain. That doesn't tell us that Joe thought he made a mistake or anything, just that he won't pitch his player if he's hurt (which isn't a shocker, since that's the doctor's decision).

 

I don't see how I (or anyone else) is overblowing a decision that Girardi made that not only goes against common logic and risks severe injury to a young player but is a mistake he saw his manager make 5 years ago.

 

If you wanna bash a manager(who really did jeopardize a young arm)

look at Mr. Gardhenhire(sp?)

 

Garenhire did an admirable job with Liriano. Francisco was in the 140s in PAP (it would be higher if he hadn't missed time, but even then, it'd probably have been between 50 and 100), he averaged 89.4 pitches/start. The Twins treated him very gingerly, whether it was starting the season in the pen or the team being careful with him when he was coming back. I think Gardenhire is an awful manager in terms of in-game decisions and lineup construction, but the way he brought along Liriano (and Sanatana a few years ago) were great.

[oldcubsfan]

Lou is waiting for the Yankee job, he says he wants to win now and what better lineup to manage.

 

If Torre is fired, I'll bet George hires Lou without even wasting time to interview Girardi.

[C.C.]

Lou is waiting for the Yankee job, he says he wants to win now and what better lineup to manage.

 

If Torre is fired, I'll bet George hires Lou without even wasting time to interview Girardi.

 

That's what I think also. I think we'll get Girardi by default...

[RichHillIsABeast]

Yeah, Girardi was SO careless with Johnson

 

"If there is a little strain, he won't pitch at all the rest of the year," manager Joe Girardi said Tuesday. "He played catch [on Monday] and he still felt a little stiff, so I'm not going to start him [saturday]. It's not worth it." Especially disappointing is that the injury apparently will prevent him from qualifying for the ERA title. He currently ranks fourth in the NL with a 3.10 ERA in 157 innings.

 

 

That really sounds like a guy that is reckless with young arms.

 

Don't let the facts get in the way. The fact is he let a guy pitch after an hour and change rain delay. To me what is even more damaging is that he's seen this happen before when he was a player. He was catching Leiber when Baylor sent him out after the rain delay.

 

Learning from past mistakes is a good thing. Repeating them is a bad thing.

 

Starting pitchers come back all the time after rain delays with no ill effects.

 

A lot of things go into that decision. It's not some general rule. People aren't numbers.