Ryan Theriot=Bench Player. Period.

[fromthestretch]

sandbergs best year in the minors powerwise had him hitting 11 hr in 490 ab's and he hit a total of 24 in 4 years. not much there to indicate a 40 hr season and 282 lifetime hr's either is there? minor leauge #'s are not the end all and be all of indicators. players do sometimes exceed the production they had in the minors when they play in the big leagues. and btw, theriot is not much smaller than ryno-5-11 175 vs 6-2 180.

 

I like Theriot, but even remotely comparing him to a Sandberg at this stage is absurd. Hoping that he'll develop the same way a Hall of Famer did is beyond wishful thinking.

[wastra]

Theriot has done what you EXPECT a decent player to do- improve over time.

 

 

 

I don't know for sure if he's a great player or is going to be a solid starter for his career or not. But he hasn't done anything yet to make me think otherwise in his limited action. that' s why we get to see him for a few more weeks first.

 

Most of all, I like that he is patient. So whether he hits .270 or .330, he'll be able to help us even when he's in the throes of a hitting slump by taking some pitches here and there- something Cedeno cannot do.

 

I am all for allowing guys like Theriot the right to EARN starting positions in their first full years, but I think it is prudent to have a viable backup option as well.

 

 

There are very very few teams, even playoff teams, who have offensive studs, or even above average offensive players at all 8 positions.

 

We need one more big bat somewhere in the lineup, and a focus in the remaining positions at getting on base. Then, our biggest issue should be pitching, NOT signing 4 stud hitters. We can add a hitter later in the season if need be, and solid pitching will keep you in the hunt plenty long enough to do so.

 

If I'm Hendry, I count on Zambrano and Hill at this point, PRAY that Prior can do something, but plan for the worst anyway by singing at least two quality starting pitchers. Wood comes back as the backup closer and short reliever with the possibility of moving into the rotation if his shoudler is healed by late in the season and there is a need, and signed to an incentive laden deal. Otherwise, he walks. The rest of the bullpen pretty much remains intact.

 

Then, just make sure our bench isn't filled with the neifis of the world, and we can easily contend.

[mg420]

sandbergs best year in the minors powerwise had him hitting 11 hr in 490 ab's and he hit a total of 24 in 4 years. not much there to indicate a 40 hr season and 282 lifetime hr's either is there? minor leauge #'s are not the end all and be all of indicators. players do sometimes exceed the production they had in the minors when they play in the big leagues. and btw, theriot is not much smaller than ryno-5-11 175 vs 6-2 180.

 

I like Theriot, but even remotely comparing him to a Sandberg at this stage is absurd. Hoping that he'll develop the same way a Hall of Famer did is beyond wishful thinking.

 

i think you have missed the point. it was an example and not a comparision.

[goonys evil twin]

The last middle infielder with an unimpressive past to have a very hot start to his Chicago Cubs career was Neifi Perez.

[fromthestretch]

sandbergs best year in the minors powerwise had him hitting 11 hr in 490 ab's and he hit a total of 24 in 4 years. not much there to indicate a 40 hr season and 282 lifetime hr's either is there? minor leauge #'s are not the end all and be all of indicators. players do sometimes exceed the production they had in the minors when they play in the big leagues. and btw, theriot is not much smaller than ryno-5-11 175 vs 6-2 180.

 

I like Theriot, but even remotely comparing him to a Sandberg at this stage is absurd. Hoping that he'll develop the same way a Hall of Famer did is beyond wishful thinking.

 

i think you have missed the point. it was an example and not a comparision.

 

I don't think there is any point in using a Hall of Famer as an example of that in a discussion regarding a 27-year old with a career minor league slugging percentage under .340. Not only has Theriot never hit more than two home runs in a single minor league season, his numbers in the doubles department doesn't exactly lead one to believe there will a lot more power in his future. Sandberg was 21 when he reached the majors. He had a much better chance to develop more power. Hall of Famers are not the norm. For every Sandberg and Bagwell that developed power after they reached the majors, there are hundreds of players that never did.

 

No one is bad-mouthing Theriot; he's certainly a solid player and would be a good guy to have on the bench. Could he be a starting second baseman? Perhaps. Are there better options available this off-season? Definitely. At this point, there's no good reason to think he's the solution at second for 2007. Now, if the Cubs significantly improve other positions and the pitching staff, you can afford to give Theriot a chance to compete for the second base job next spring.

[Abe Frohman]

Here is the bottom line when comparing Theriot to Cedeno - who has produced?

 

It's that simple. Yes, Theriot is older than Cedeno - but other things are important to. Theriot has an IDEA of what he is doing up at the plate, Cedeno is obviously confused. I think every one of us Cub fans should be about fed up with "expectations and potential." We need RUNS. However you get them, you have to start by GETTING ON BASE.

 

Look at Juan Pierre. League leader in hits, but how many runs has he scored? If Pierre would take a walk, his OB% would be up and he would be scoring more runs for the Cubs. Look at Rickey Henderson - he didn't score all those runs because he could steal a base - he would work a pitcher to get on base.

 

My point is that Cedeno has TONS of potential, but look at his numbers: he doesn't walk, he does strike out, and he is not a hard out. He swings at everything. He could use a year in the minors to work out a game plan of his offense. Until then, find a decent hitting SS and go with Theriot.

 

Look at it this way, in 100 at bats, Theriot has already scored half as many runs (24) as Cendeno has (47) in 493 at bats. Tell me who is producing and who should be playing.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

The last middle infielder with an unimpressive past to have a very hot start to his Chicago Cubs career was Neifi Perez.

 

Womack was on fire earlier this year too.

[WrigleyField 22]

The last middle infielder with an unimpressive past to have a very hot start to his Chicago Cubs career was Neifi Perez.

 

We had much more hard evidence to show that Neifi did indeed suck though. If you want to contend next year Theriot should only be considered in a bench role, but if you want the aim for being midly competitve in an effort to make a big run in 2008, knowing with the way the NL is even a midly competative team has a chance with a little luck, then Theriot should at least be given an opportunity to take the 2B job.

[goonys evil twin]

Look at it this way, in 100 at bats, Theriot has already scored half as many runs (24) as Cendeno has (47) in 493 at bats. Tell me who is producing and who should be playing.

 

And then go look at Neifi's first 100 at bats with the Cubs and tell me how that panned out for the team.

 

Theriot won the battle of best start in the majors. Good for him. I hope he stays on the team. I think he can help, especially at his minimal cost.

 

But 100 ABs do not erase 2000 minor league at bats. It works the same way whether the guy was a great minor leaguer and sucked to start in the majors, or a mediocre minor leaguer who was great to start in the majors.

 

Obviously we want everybody to start hot. But a hot start is just a start, and it's not all that indicative of anything going forward.

[goonys evil twin]

The last middle infielder with an unimpressive past to have a very hot start to his Chicago Cubs career was Neifi Perez.

 

We had much more hard evidence to show that Neifi did indeed suck though. If you want to contend next year Theriot should only be considered in a bench role, but if you want the aim for being midly competitve in an effort to make a big run in 2008, knowing with the way the NL is even a midly competative team has a chance with a little luck, then Theriot should at least be given an opportunity to take the 2B job.

 

 

2000+ pro at bats is pretty hard evidence.

 

Sure, let him compete for the job. But he shouldn't be handed the job, and the Cubs shouldn't steer clear of potential improvements because Theriot has looked good.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I wouldn't mind if Theriot started at SS over Izturis, but there are too many upgrades available at secondbase to go into 2007 with Theriot penciled in as the starter.

[Abe Frohman]

I wouldn't mind if Theriot started at SS over Izturis, but there are too many upgrades available at secondbase to go into 2007 with Theriot penciled in as the starter.

 

I agree with you there.

[Backtobanks]

The last middle infielder with an unimpressive past to have a very hot start to his Chicago Cubs career was Neifi Perez.

 

Womack was on fire earlier this year too.

 

There's a simple solution, carry Theriot as a utility IF next year and when he gets a chance to play, see if he offers the same spark he is offering now. If he hits and gets on base, let him play until he shows he can't be a starter. If the Cubs were in contention now, they would be crazy to take him out of the lineup. Expect him to be a utility IF and anything beyond that is a plus.

[Abe Frohman]

The last middle infielder with an unimpressive past to have a very hot start to his Chicago Cubs career was Neifi Perez.

 

Womack was on fire earlier this year too.

 

There's a simple solution, carry Theriot as a utility IF next year and when he gets a chance to play, see if he offers the same spark he is offering now. If he hits and gets on base, let him play until he shows he can't be a starter. If the Cubs were in contention now, they would be crazy to take him out of the lineup. Expect him to be a utility IF and anything beyond that is a plus.

 

Who is going to start at 2nd base in 2007 if a big player isn't signed? Hopefully, Theriot will be the starting 2nd sacker unless there is an upgrade. I think Cedeno has proven that he needs MUCH more seasoning. His numbers are pathetic.

[goonys evil twin]

Who is going to start at 2nd base in 2007 if a big player isn't signed? Hopefully, Theriot will be the starting 2nd sacker unless there is an upgrade. I think Cedeno has proven that he needs MUCH more seasoning. His numbers are pathetic.

 

Since we're handing out jobs based on small sample sizes, Ronny is hitting .314/.352/.451 in over 50 September plate appearances.

[Rob]

OBP is more important than SLG

 

Actually, I'm fairly convinced one of my giant tomes sitting on the bookshelf came to the opposite conclusion... though it was quite a close outcome. I suppose tomorrow I'll get to digging through the books and trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.

 

I don't want to hijack this thread and I don't know what book you have, but I think it's wrong. And I'm pretty sure Tango Tiger and Bill James agree with me. The folks at FJM have this in their definition of OPS:

 

Hard-core nerds will snivellingly tell you that OPS is stupid because OBP is way more important than SLG – Bill James himself, the king of all things stat-related in baseball, thinks that it is four times as important.

 

I'm not going to take the time to search for more support at this point, like I said, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I just wanted to point that out.

 

Oh, I'm certainly not convinced of it either. I was just trying to point out it's still occassionally disputed in logical terms.

 

IIRC, the study was something to the effect of team SLG historically having a higher correlation with winning percentage than OBP alone... though neither way attempted to control the influence of other factors.

 

Personally, I tend to go with EqA when I can be bothered to look it up.

[jaxxradio]

Having seen both Theriot and Cedeno on a daily basis when they played in West Tenn, I can tell you that they both play solid defensively, which is WAY more important than what they bring to the plate based on the position they are playing.

 

I said this when the Izturis trade was announced and I will say it again, the Cubs made a GREAT move in picking up Izturis. By playing Izturis at short and playing Theriot or Cedeno at second, the Cubs now have a solid defensive base up the middle. Throw in a 1B that picks out low throws better than anyone in Derek Lee and you have an infield defense that will be among the elite in the National League next season (provided Ramirez stays at 3B).

 

Now I know alot of you kids are fixated on offense and while I agree the team needs more offense, this Cubs team is in more desperate need of pitching. Specifically, pitchers that tend to yield ground balls. If the Cubs can get their pitchers to induce more ground balls with the infield currently in place, I think alot of you will be surprised how improved this team will become both defensively and team ERA wise. By improving those two facets of the game, it puts less of a sense of urgency on the offense.

 

Believe it or not, this team isn't nearly as far away from contending as alot of you might think.

[goonys evil twin]

izturis has sucked with the glove

[goonys evil twin]

Having seen both Theriot and Cedeno on a daily basis when they played in West Tenn, I can tell you that they both play solid defensively, which is WAY more important than what they bring to the plate based on the position they are playing.

 

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

 

There is no possible way to justify claiming that defense is WAY more important than offensive production, no matter the position. To do so would suggest that a 500 OPS would be acceptable as long as the guy was really good with the glove, and that just ain't true.

 

Offense is immensely important. And since good fielding middle infielders are a dime a dozen (considering the Cubs apparantly had 4 on their roster this year), what matters is the difference in offensive production. If a guy is a butcher, he'll hurt you. But as long as he's average, you're much better off going for the offense.

[mg420]

izturis has sucked with the glove

 

scouting report from stats inc:

 

"Of course, the best part of Izturis' game is his magnificient defense, where he has almost no weaknesses. He has great range to either side and gets to more balls up the middle than perhaps any shortstop in baseball. Izturis also has plenty of arm to throw from the hole, and his footwork is magical around the second-base bag."

 

i think their assement carries a little more weight than your opinion.

[jaxxradio]

Offense put butts in the seats.. pitching and defense win championships.. Great pitching (and defense) beats great hitting 99 times out of 100.

 

If the infield in place plays the way they are capable of playing defensively, they will save enough runs to justify putting them there in the first place.

 

BTW, Izturis is one of the three best defensive SS in the game. While it's true his glove isn't great right now, give him the benefit of the doubt. Come 2007, he will be gold glove caliber again.

[mg420]

Who is going to start at 2nd base in 2007 if a big player isn't signed? Hopefully, Theriot will be the starting 2nd sacker unless there is an upgrade. I think Cedeno has proven that he needs MUCH more seasoning. His numbers are pathetic.

 

Since we're handing out jobs based on small sample sizes, Ronny is hitting .314/.352/.451 in over 50 September plate appearances.

 

cedeno still wouldnt be starting ahead of theriot with those #'s so its a moot point at best.

[CubinNY]

izturis has sucked with the glove

 

scouting report from stats inc:

 

"Of course, the best part of Izturis' game is his magnificient defense, where he has almost no weaknesses. He has great range to either side and gets to more balls up the middle than perhaps any shortstop in baseball. Izturis also has plenty of arm to throw from the hole, and his footwork is magical around the second-base bag."

 

i think their assement carries a little more weight than your opinion.

 

Izturas has a .976 fielding percentage and a .770 ZR this year. His defense has not been magnificent.

 

And he can't hit.

Edited September 19, 2006 by CubinNY

[jaxxradio]

BTW Goony, I'm not talking about "good fielding" guys.. they do come a dime a dozen.. I'm talking GREAT fielding guys. Great fielding guys up the middle take alot of pressure off average pitching staffs. Izturis at short is GREAT defensively. Cedeno or Theriot at 2B has the potential (I hate that word as much as anyone else) to be GREAT defensively as well.

[CubinNY]

Offense put butts in the seats.. pitching and defense win championships.. Great pitching (and defense) beats great hitting 99 times out of 100.

 

If the infield in place plays the way they are capable of playing defensively, they will save enough runs to justify putting them there in the first place.

 

BTW, Izturis is one of the three best defensive SS in the game. While it's true his glove isn't great right now, give him the benefit of the doubt. Come 2007, he will be gold glove caliber again.

 

We've been down this road before, haven't we?