"No Callup Angers Pie"

[Guest]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

 

centerfielders hit leadoff - do you really need that explained? now if he plays LF, then he can bat 6th or 7th, but not 2nd!

[soapy]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

 

whats wrong with keeping pierre? with his resurgence he can be a .750 (he's already at .727 even with his horrible first few months) ops guy next year. he plays great defense (aside from the noodle arm) and will have 50 steals this year. i dont see any way that they dont try to resign him. i believe the cubs have already said that they see pie as a #5 or 6 hitter anyway rather than a leadoff guy (i think it was oneri?). i think he will be switched to rf in iowa next year. if he takes off in 07 in aaa, they can always trade jones & bring pie up.

 

What about Pierre's past/present makes you think he can put up a .750 OPS over a full season in 2007? He's done it exactly once in the last four years (2004). Over that same time span, he's been under .700 OPS twice (2002 and 2005).

 

perhaps having a .727 even with a horrendous start?

 

Who's to say he won't have a stretch like that again next year? He wasn't close to productive in 2005, and would have to remain hot over this next month to reach your .750 number. If he doesn't, that would put him at .750 once in five years. I see no reason to think he can continue his current hot streak over the length of a whole season at this point. He's not getting any younger.

 

It's possible, but your acting like he's a .750 OPS guy. I would say he isn't. He'd actually have to improve, at age 30, to get there.

 

his career ops is .730 & the way he has come on so strong the past few months indicates to me that a .750 next year is not unreasonable. players do improve at age 30 btw-not every player fits into the production curve.

 

Like I said, it's possible, but I don't think it's likely at all. He hasn't shown the ability to maintain a .750 over his career and a hot streak at age 29 is not going to make me forget the entire 2005 and first half of 2006. Of course not every player fits the production curve (I never said that, btw) but it's certainly something that needs to be kept in mind, IMO.

[soapy]

What makes Pierre's hot streak a sign of things to come and his stretch of terrible play the aberration? What makes what he's doing sustainable? It appears to me he's not doing anything differently, just a hot streak where he hits for a higher average. That's what happens to players like Pierre, their value is so tied to average that they are prone to extreme swings in either direction. Pierre has shown with his total performance through his career that he's going to be poor offensively on the whole.

I certainly haven't looked at the numbers to back this up, but just purely from watching over the last few months, it appears that he's basically hitting the same as before, but is finding some holes through the infield.

 

Like I said, the numbers might not back that up, but that's the impression I'm getting just from watching the last few months. I don't see Pierre hitting a higher amount of line drives or any significant change in approach. Just another reason that I don't think he can sustain his current success in 2007.

[Warpticon]

What makes Pierre's hot streak a sign of things to come and his stretch of terrible play the aberration? What makes what he's doing sustainable? It appears to me he's not doing anything differently, just a hot streak where he hits for a higher average. That's what happens to players like Pierre, their value is so tied to average that they are prone to extreme swings in either direction. Pierre has shown with his total performance through his career that he's going to be poor offensively on the whole.

 

I would agree with the overall sentiment, but Pierre just completed his third consecutive month with an OBP at or above .346. I wouldn't just classify it as simply a "hot streak." That said, he's not worth the money he'll get, is only okay as a base stealer (runs into too many outs), is only okay at best in the field with a terrible arm, and doesn't provide enough offensively to offset the periods where the abundance of ground balls aren't falling into the right gaps.

[KingCubsFan]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

What's terrible about making Pie a leadoff hitter?

[CubColtPacer]

What makes Pierre's hot streak a sign of things to come and his stretch of terrible play the aberration? What makes what he's doing sustainable? It appears to me he's not doing anything differently, just a hot streak where he hits for a higher average. That's what happens to players like Pierre, their value is so tied to average that they are prone to extreme swings in either direction. Pierre has shown with his total performance through his career that he's going to be poor offensively on the whole.

 

I would agree with the overall sentiment, but Pierre just completed his third consecutive month with an OBP at or above .346. I wouldn't just classify it as simply a "hot streak." That said, he's not worth the money he'll get, is only okay as a base stealer (runs into too many outs), is only okay at best in the field with a terrible arm, and doesn't provide enough offensively to offset the periods where the abundance of ground balls aren't falling into the right gaps.

 

Does Pierre even have that many ground ball hits anymore? It seems to me the last couple months that most of the time he has hit ground balls he has made an out-it has been more line drives and bloops into left field that have dropped in front of the outfielders. I'm not sure what is classified as a ground ball versus a line drive versus a fly ball (is a line drive off the bat that hits the back of the infield and keep going a line drive or ground ball? Is a bloop into left a line drive or fly ball?). However, Pierre doesn't hit many sharp ground balls, and his infield hits aren't that much this year-so it's his line drives and bloops that have kept him hot.

 

I would agree that Pierre will likely be better next year than this year, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be worth the money that he'll command, and definitely not if the deal is multiple years.

[soapy]

What makes Pierre's hot streak a sign of things to come and his stretch of terrible play the aberration? What makes what he's doing sustainable? It appears to me he's not doing anything differently, just a hot streak where he hits for a higher average. That's what happens to players like Pierre, their value is so tied to average that they are prone to extreme swings in either direction. Pierre has shown with his total performance through his career that he's going to be poor offensively on the whole.

 

I would agree with the overall sentiment, but Pierre just completed his third consecutive month with an OBP at or above .346. I wouldn't just classify it as simply a "hot streak." That said, he's not worth the money he'll get, is only okay as a base stealer (runs into too many outs), is only okay at best in the field with a terrible arm, and doesn't provide enough offensively to offset the periods where the abundance of ground balls aren't falling into the right gaps.

 

Does Pierre even have that many ground ball hits anymore? It seems to me the last couple months that most of the time he has hit ground balls he has made an out-it has been more line drives and bloops into left field that have dropped in front of the outfielders. I'm not sure what is classified as a ground ball versus a line drive versus a fly ball (is a line drive off the bat that hits the back of the infield and keep going a line drive or ground ball? Is a bloop into left a line drive or fly ball?). However, Pierre doesn't hit many sharp ground balls, and his infield hits aren't that much this year-so it's his line drives and bloops that have kept him hot.

It's funny that you mentioned that because, as I noted above, I've perceived the opposite. I'd like to see what the numbers look like.

 

EDIT: All I can find is that his LD% is actually lower than 2005, but slightly higher than 2004.

Edited September 6, 2006 by soapy

[Rob]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

 

whats wrong with keeping pierre? with his resurgence he can be a .750 (he's already at .727 even with his horrible first few months) ops guy next year. he plays great defense (aside from the noodle arm) and will have 50 steals this year. i dont see any way that they dont try to resign him. i believe the cubs have already said that they see pie as a #5 or 6 hitter anyway rather than a leadoff guy (i think it was oneri?). i think he will be switched to rf in iowa next year. if he takes off in 07 in aaa, they can always trade jones & bring pie up.

 

Keeping Pierre in CF and putting Pie in RF are both disastrous ideas for an already poor offense.

i disagree

 

That's a great point. :roll:

 

Even if you want to pretend Pierre is on of the best CFs in the league... Pie in RF would be below-average. His offense is much more palatable as a CF than a RF. Surely we both can agree offense is extremely important for a RF, and Pie is no Bobby Abreu even.

[neely crenshaw]

Jacque is signed to a 3 year contract. They're not going to piss off a reasonably productive vet by sitting him down the stretch to try out his possible replacement in the field when he's got two years left on his contract. There's also the problem that they both hit lefty, so you can't approach it as a platoon. Since the organization is committed to Murton in left (and Pagan for some reason), it just doesn't leave much room for Pie to get regular reps with the big league crew.

 

By having him work in AZ one on one with VJ, Pie can get some intensive instruction before heading off to winter league to work on what he hears at this point. As has been pointed out by others, I'd much rather have him working that way with Von that up in the majors, sitting on the bench and working with Gene Clines.

 

Felix may not be happy with the move, but I think it's the right one. Of course, that's mainly because I prefer our AAA hitting coach over our major league one. Which is a problem that desperately needs addressing during the offseason.

 

i would agree except the cubs aren't doing this pie's own good they are doing it to keep his years of service down to help them...

 

and jones is paid 6 mil...if he is told to sit..he should sit-period. he has his spot for next year...no one wants his deal for 2 more years. he might be able to be dealt at the deadline next year if someone needs a vet. so he has nothing to worry about being replaced and believe me he knows that!

 

i'm pretty sure we will see the same outfield next season. if not, it will just magnify the fact that signing jones was silly. why pay jones 6 mil a year to be in an outfield with pie and murton. why waste the money?

seriously if cpatt had his bad seasons and hit .240 with 20 hrs...how much better would we be with jones' .275 and 25hrs for double the money and no upside?

[C.C.]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

What's terrible about making Pie a leadoff hitter?

 

I was just going to post that. What so bad about Pie hitting leadoff?????

[CubColtPacer]

Jacque is signed to a 3 year contract. They're not going to piss off a reasonably productive vet by sitting him down the stretch to try out his possible replacement in the field when he's got two years left on his contract. There's also the problem that they both hit lefty, so you can't approach it as a platoon. Since the organization is committed to Murton in left (and Pagan for some reason), it just doesn't leave much room for Pie to get regular reps with the big league crew.

 

By having him work in AZ one on one with VJ, Pie can get some intensive instruction before heading off to winter league to work on what he hears at this point. As has been pointed out by others, I'd much rather have him working that way with Von that up in the majors, sitting on the bench and working with Gene Clines.

 

Felix may not be happy with the move, but I think it's the right one. Of course, that's mainly because I prefer our AAA hitting coach over our major league one. Which is a problem that desperately needs addressing during the offseason.

 

 

seriously if cpatt had his bad seasons and hit .240 with 20 hrs...how much better would we be with jones' .275 and 25hrs for double the money and no upside?

 

If CPatt had a season like he's had this year, he would be a moderate downgrade from Jones (13 points less in OBP, 70 points less in SLG). If he had a season like last year, the players are like night and day (73 point difference in OBP, 142 points in SLG). Jones is a great deal better than Patterson's bad years.

[neely crenshaw]

you are correct- my point is with the given lineup how much better would the cubs be..because of jones? a game..2?

for 3 million more dollars a year with no upside at all, it doesn't make sense.

now if you sign 2 stud pitchers, trade for a stud ss and sign a stud ofer...then it would make sense. to be less in last place..it makes no sense.

[CUBZ99]

What makes Pierre's hot streak a sign of things to come and his stretch of terrible play the aberration? What makes what he's doing sustainable? It appears to me he's not doing anything differently, just a hot streak where he hits for a higher average. That's what happens to players like Pierre, their value is so tied to average that they are prone to extreme swings in either direction. Pierre has shown with his total performance through his career that he's going to be poor offensively on the whole.

 

I would agree with the overall sentiment, but Pierre just completed his third consecutive month with an OBP at or above .346. I wouldn't just classify it as simply a "hot streak." That said, he's not worth the money he'll get, is only okay as a base stealer (runs into too many outs), is only okay at best in the field with a terrible arm, and doesn't provide enough offensively to offset the periods where the abundance of ground balls aren't falling into the right gaps.

 

Seems to me that at the beginning of the year Pierre was bunting way too often and hitting the ball on the ground almost every at bat. Recently, it seems that he has been hitting more line drives. I wouldn't mind seeing him in CF next year, if Hendry was able to sign him at a contract similar to what he makes now. Any thing more is a waste.

[goonys evil twin]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

What's terrible about making Pie a leadoff hitter?

 

I was just going to post that. What so bad about Pie hitting leadoff?????

 

A leadoff hitter's most important skill is to get on base. Pie's worst attribute is his ability to get on base (as well as his tendency to get thrown out on basepaths). Pie is not a slappy leadoff hitter, which is what the Cubs want all smallish centerfielders to be. They will ruin him if they try, once again, to turn a player into something he is not and should not be.

[Warpticon]

What makes Pierre's hot streak a sign of things to come and his stretch of terrible play the aberration? What makes what he's doing sustainable? It appears to me he's not doing anything differently, just a hot streak where he hits for a higher average. That's what happens to players like Pierre, their value is so tied to average that they are prone to extreme swings in either direction. Pierre has shown with his total performance through his career that he's going to be poor offensively on the whole.

 

I would agree with the overall sentiment, but Pierre just completed his third consecutive month with an OBP at or above .346. I wouldn't just classify it as simply a "hot streak." That said, he's not worth the money he'll get, is only okay as a base stealer (runs into too many outs), is only okay at best in the field with a terrible arm, and doesn't provide enough offensively to offset the periods where the abundance of ground balls aren't falling into the right gaps.

 

Seems to me that at the beginning of the year Pierre was bunting way too often and hitting the ball on the ground almost every at bat. Recently, it seems that he has been hitting more line drives. I wouldn't mind seeing him in CF next year, if Hendry was able to sign him at a contract similar to what he makes now. Any thing more is a waste.

 

That seems to be very close to the truth. Pierre has set a career high for extra base hits this year with a month still to go. 30 doubles (28 previous high), 12 triples (13 career high), and 2 homers (3 career high) for 44 total. His next best number was 37. At the end of May, at his lowest point, he had...six XBH. So I think it's fair to say that his improvement is significantly tied to being much less of a ground ball hitter. In fact, I just realized that he's broken his previous high in the last three months (and 5 days) alone.

[C.C.]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

What's terrible about making Pie a leadoff hitter?

 

I was just going to post that. What so bad about Pie hitting leadoff?????

 

A leadoff hitter's most important skill is to get on base. Pie's worst attribute is his ability to get on base (as well as his tendency to get thrown out on basepaths). Pie is not a slappy leadoff hitter, which is what the Cubs want all smallish centerfielders to be. They will ruin him if they try, once again, to turn a player into something he is not and should not be.

 

His career OBP in the minors is around .350 which isn't bad, but I can see your point, espcially when checking out how much he K's.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

What's terrible about making Pie a leadoff hitter?

 

I was just going to post that. What so bad about Pie hitting leadoff?????

 

Poor plate discipline, poor ability to get on base, and (something the Cubs truely value in leadoff hitters), a poor rate of success on stolen bases.

[Bruno7481]

I don't think there can be any harm in letting Pie start out at AAA in 07. He is still mplenty young enough that it isn't going to set him back, he can only improve.

 

As to what the Cubs decide to do with CF, that is another can of worms. Pierre started out terribly, but has played pretty well since July especially. If they re-sign him for longer than 1 year I really wonder how that affects Pie's future.

 

June: .283/.352

 

July .345/.380

 

August .304/.346

 

Sept .476/.522

 

Blows Patterson's numbers out of the water after all the praise he received after a hot begining of the season.

[mg420]

I guess there's reasons why this is a good thing, but imo they're overshadowed by the several terrible decisions that this portends(making Pie a leadoff hitter, keeping Pierre, not doing anything with Jones in RF, etc.)

 

whats wrong with keeping pierre? with his resurgence he can be a .750 (he's already at .727 even with his horrible first few months) ops guy next year. he plays great defense (aside from the noodle arm) and will have 50 steals this year. i dont see any way that they dont try to resign him. i believe the cubs have already said that they see pie as a #5 or 6 hitter anyway rather than a leadoff guy (i think it was oneri?). i think he will be switched to rf in iowa next year. if he takes off in 07 in aaa, they can always trade jones & bring pie up.

 

Keeping Pierre in CF and putting Pie in RF are both disastrous ideas for an already poor offense.

i disagree

 

That's a great point. :roll:

 

Even if you want to pretend Pierre is on of the best CFs in the league... Pie in RF would be below-average. His offense is much more palatable as a CF than a RF. Surely we both can agree offense is extremely important for a RF, and Pie is no Bobby Abreu even.

 

take a look at oaklands of. if pie can lower his k's and get on base more, he will be a very balanced player. i dont buy the rf is a power position idea. if a team has good starting pitching & a good pen (look at the a's again), they can do very well with only an average offense. pie & murton can both be 25 hr's guy's in lf & rf imo. abreu has lost his hr stroke since he won the derby last year (he only has 10 hr in 473 ab's) while pie is just coming into his power stroke at 21 years old.

[Guest]

I don't see either Pie or Murton hitting 25 HR next year (though Murt has a chance -- it would just be a big leap at once instead of the little leaps I expect it will take him to get there).

 

I wouldn't expect Pie to come close.

 

If he's brought to the majors right away next year, it's possible that we'd see Cedeno-type numbers from him the first few months. That wouldn't mean he's a washout as a big leaguer, it's just that you shouldn't expect much more than that from a 22-year old with the holes in his game that Felix still possesses. You can hope for more. But you should plan on that level of production if you're going to throw him into the fire. Which means you need that much better production from elsewhere in the lineup.

[jaydee]

gotta let Pierre keep his league lead in CS!

[mg420]

I don't see either Pie or Murton hitting 25 HR next year (though Murt has a chance -- it would just be a big leap at once instead of the little leaps I expect it will take him to get there).

 

I wouldn't expect Pie to come close.

 

If he's brought to the majors right away next year, it's possible that we'd see Cedeno-type numbers from him the first few months. That wouldn't mean he's a washout as a big leaguer, it's just that you shouldn't expect much more than that from a 22-year old with the holes in his game that Felix still possesses. You can hope for more. But you should plan on that level of production if you're going to throw him into the fire. Which means you need that much better production from elsewhere in the lineup.

 

i didnt mean that i thought pie would hit 25 next year only that he has 25 hr potential. the big question is weather to let pie work out the holes in his game at aaa or in the majors. with the current coaching staff in the majors, i'm glad he's not getting the call up yet. having a healthy lee next year should greatly increase the lineup production anyway. again, if the cubs can get some solid starting pitching from guys like hill, marshall and maybe even prior, they dont need a world class offense to contend.

[gflore34]

On one hand I would have liked to see Pie get called up, on the other, I don't Pie anywhere near Baker and his rookies learn by watching others crap. Nor do I want Pie singled out in Press for every mistake he makes while the Pierre's and Jones', etc. get a free pass and in fact, are defended for their bone-headed play.

[Soriano12]

On one hand I would have liked to see Pie get called up, on the other, I don't Pie anywhere near Baker and his rookies learn by watching others crap. Nor do I want Pie singled out in Press for every mistake he makes while the Pierre's and Jones', etc. get a free pass and in fact, are defended for their bone-headed play.

 

 

AMEN