"Sometimes it's easier to play on the road"

[CuseCubFan69]

I think a lot of ignorant people use the N word to express their feelings because they have no clue on the right way to do so.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Probably the most hated Cub over the past 10 years has to be Todd Hundley.

 

Yes..hated more than Hawkins IMO.

 

I can't post 99% of the stuff I heard fans yelling at him in the stands.

 

 

Bottom line, Cubs fans are prejudiced against bad baseball..not skin color.

 

Every team has fans that are prejudiced.

[Soriano12]

Probably the most hated Cub over the past 10 years has to be Todd Hundley.

 

Yes..hated more than Hawkins IMO.

 

I can't post 99% of the stuff I heard fans yelling at him in the stands.

 

 

Bottom line, Cubs fans are prejudiced against bad baseball..not skin color.

 

So are you saying Dusty's a liar or saying that writing racial slurs in a letter (some of which include death threats) doesn't indicate prejudice based on skin color? I hate what Dusty has done to this team and I've yelled many things at the TV while watching him that I wouldn't want my mother to hear me yell, but none of them had anything to do with race. They all had to do with his inability to properly manage a baseball team.

 

I have no problem with fans booing or yelling things that attack Dusty's skills as a manger. I have a big problem with people yelling or writing racials slurs while attacking his skills as a manger. I have just as big a problem with people defending this as anything but racism. Using a racial slur to attack someone who is bad at something (rather than solely for being of a particular race) doesn't make it not racism.

 

No. I'm sure the racial slurs/hate mail exist.

I'm sure they existed in San Franscisco. I'm sure they will exist wherever he manages next.

The bottom line is that I don't like the fact that this article attacks Cubs fans as racist. I'd be willing to bet the racist letters are not even from Cub fans but some KKK moron that happen to turn on WGN and see an African American manager.

[Tracer Bullet]

The thing that bugs me most about Dusty playing the race card... are his own blatantly racist comments, which the media still gives him a pass on...

 

We're going to be paying for hiring Baker for a LONG time...

 

Other than the comment about heat not having as much of an effect on black players, what else did he say? I just don't remember any other comments (though there may have been others).

 

And let's not compare a death threat using a racial slur with a comment about some races not being as effected by heat as other races. His comment was associated with race, but he didn't indicate that he thought less of other races because they were effected more by hot weather. Not even the same ballpark, really.

[Tracer Bullet]

Probably the most hated Cub over the past 10 years has to be Todd Hundley.

 

Yes..hated more than Hawkins IMO.

 

I can't post 99% of the stuff I heard fans yelling at him in the stands.

 

 

Bottom line, Cubs fans are prejudiced against bad baseball..not skin color.

 

So are you saying Dusty's a liar or saying that writing racial slurs in a letter (some of which include death threats) doesn't indicate prejudice based on skin color? I hate what Dusty has done to this team and I've yelled many things at the TV while watching him that I wouldn't want my mother to hear me yell, but none of them had anything to do with race. They all had to do with his inability to properly manage a baseball team.

 

I have no problem with fans booing or yelling things that attack Dusty's skills as a manger. I have a big problem with people yelling or writing racials slurs while attacking his skills as a manger. I have just as big a problem with people defending this as anything but racism. Using a racial slur to attack someone who is bad at something (rather than solely for being of a particular race) doesn't make it not racism.

 

No. I'm sure the racial slurs/hate mail exist.

I'm sure they existed in San Franscisco. I'm sure they will exist wherever he manages next.

The bottom line is that I don't like the fact that this article attacks Cubs fans as racist. I'd be willing to bet the racist letters are not even from Cub fans but some KKK moron that happen to turn on WGN and see an African American manager.

 

Well, I think you're wrong. I think they're from Cubs fans. I think the Cubs, like every other team, has racist fans.

[Tracer Bullet]

Yes, the ones that sent death threats to Hank Aaron as he approached the Babe's homerun total were true racists. He was good and they still hated him. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but I don't remember hearing of Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Dawson or Sosa getting any death threats. Well, Sammy might have after he fell out favor but you get the point.

 

What the hell does that mean? Anyone who uses race is a racist by definition, whether or not they're sending hate mail or celebrating one's accomplishments. What's the difference between "you suck, " or "that is actually pretty good"?

 

I don't think that's what cubfan1955 was saying. I understood him to say that "true racists" hate certain groups and will hate them even when they're doing well. Whether they use racial slurs to speak negatively or positively about someone wasn't the distinction. The distinction was whether the subject of their hatred was good or bad at his job. Apparently "true racists" voice their racism at all times, whereas racists who aren't "true racists" only voice their racism when a player isn't doing well and possibly even cheer when the subject is performing well.

[goonys evil twin]

The thing that bugs me most about Dusty playing the race card... are his own blatantly racist comments, which the media still gives him a pass on...

 

We're going to be paying for hiring Baker for a LONG time...

 

Other than the comment about heat not having as much of an effect on black players, what else did he say? I just don't remember any other comments (though there may have been others).

 

And let's not compare a death threat using a racial slur with a comment about some races not being as effected by heat as other races. His comment was associated with race, but he didn't indicate that he thought less of other races because they were effected more by hot weather. Not even the same ballpark, really.

 

He absolutely did indicate he thought less of other races. He's a racist who wants more fast black players. Matt Murton is running circles around the darker skinned Angel Pagan, but Pagan still takes away significant playing time from the guy. Todd Walker was as good a 2B as Jacque Jones is a RF and Juan Pierre was as CF, but Jones and Pierre's jobs were never threatened by lesser players while Walker was constantly forced to sit. I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest Baker has allowed race to affect his decisions.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Yes, the ones that sent death threats to Hank Aaron as he approached the Babe's homerun total were true racists. He was good and they still hated him. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but I don't remember hearing of Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Dawson or Sosa getting any death threats. Well, Sammy might have after he fell out favor but you get the point.

 

What the hell does that mean? Anyone who uses race is a racist by definition, whether or not they're sending hate mail or celebrating one's accomplishments. What's the difference between "you suck, " or "that is actually pretty good"?

 

I don't think that's what cubfan1955 was saying. I understood him to say that "true racists" hate certain groups and will hate them even when they're doing well. Whether they use racial slurs to speak negatively or positively about someone wasn't the distinction. The distinction was whether the subject of their hatred was good or bad at his job. Apparently "true racists" voice their racism at all times, whereas racists who aren't "true racists" only voice their racism when a player isn't doing well and possibly even cheer when the subject is performing well.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Are we now measuring degrees of racism?

[cubfan1955]

Yes, the ones that sent death threats to Hank Aaron as he approached the Babe's homerun total were true racists. He was good and they still hated him. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but I don't remember hearing of Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Dawson or Sosa getting any death threats. Well, Sammy might have after he fell out favor but you get the point.

 

What the hell does that mean? Anyone who uses race is a racist by definition, whether or not they're sending hate mail or celebrating one's accomplishments. What's the difference between "you suck, " or "that is actually pretty good"?

Sorry, poor choice of words on my part. Yes they are all racists. My point was that the Cubs black players have generally been treated well and not ALL Cubs fans are racists (in fact I'm sure the percentage of Cubs fans that are racists are no greater than any other team). If they were, every black player that has ever played for them would be receiving that type of thing and to my knowledge they haven't. It's never justified to send anyone hate mail or death threats whether it's a hall of famer going after a record or manager that isn't capable of filling out a decent lineup card.

[halplm]

The thing that bugs me most about Dusty playing the race card... are his own blatantly racist comments, which the media still gives him a pass on...

 

We're going to be paying for hiring Baker for a LONG time...

 

Other than the comment about heat not having as much of an effect on black players, what else did he say? I just don't remember any other comments (though there may have been others).

 

And let's not compare a death threat using a racial slur with a comment about some races not being as effected by heat as other races. His comment was associated with race, but he didn't indicate that he thought less of other races because they were effected more by hot weather. Not even the same ballpark, really.

 

racism is racism. Certainly, death threats are way over any line... race doesn't really matter.

 

But saying black players are better than white players because they can "take the heat" better, is as blatantly racist as you can get. And it's obvious he uses that mentality to make player decisions.

 

so, to me, he has no right to claim hurt over racist remarks. Are they wrong? Absolutely! But he's just as bad, if not worse, as his racism directly impacts people's jobs and careers! threats and slurs are horrible, hurtful, and just wrong, but they're also just words...

[cubfan1955]

Yes, the ones that sent death threats to Hank Aaron as he approached the Babe's homerun total were true racists. He was good and they still hated him. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but I don't remember hearing of Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Dawson or Sosa getting any death threats. Well, Sammy might have after he fell out favor but you get the point.

 

What the hell does that mean? Anyone who uses race is a racist by definition, whether or not they're sending hate mail or celebrating one's accomplishments. What's the difference between "you suck, " or "that is actually pretty good"?

 

I don't think that's what cubfan1955 was saying. I understood him to say that "true racists" hate certain groups and will hate them even when they're doing well. Whether they use racial slurs to speak negatively or positively about someone wasn't the distinction. The distinction was whether the subject of their hatred was good or bad at his job. Apparently "true racists" voice their racism at all times, whereas racists who aren't "true racists" only voice their racism when a player isn't doing well and possibly even cheer when the subject is performing well.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Are we now measuring degrees of racism?

I think there are degrees of racism. Some racists believe all minorities should be killed and wiped from the face of the Earth. Others just think they should be killed if they can't pitch, hit, throw, or manage. Both are deplorable but they do exist.

[Tracer Bullet]

The thing that bugs me most about Dusty playing the race card... are his own blatantly racist comments, which the media still gives him a pass on...

 

We're going to be paying for hiring Baker for a LONG time...

 

Other than the comment about heat not having as much of an effect on black players, what else did he say? I just don't remember any other comments (though there may have been others).

 

And let's not compare a death threat using a racial slur with a comment about some races not being as effected by heat as other races. His comment was associated with race, but he didn't indicate that he thought less of other races because they were effected more by hot weather. Not even the same ballpark, really.

 

He absolutely did indicate he thought less of other races. He's a racist who wants more fast black players. Matt Murton is running circles around the darker skinned Angel Pagan, but Pagan still takes away significant playing time from the guy. Todd Walker was as good a 2B as Jacque Jones is a RF and Juan Pierre was as CF, but Jones and Pierre's jobs were never threatened by lesser players while Walker was constantly forced to sit. I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest Baker has allowed race to affect his decisions.

 

I'm not disputing the playing time issue (not sure if it has as much to do with race as it does Dusty's thoughts on speed - and he's not the only one who doesn't think Murton is that fast, for whatever reason). I was asking about racial comments, which is what halplm brought up.

 

I don't recall much of the dark skin/hot weather issue, but I don't remember anything that indicated that he thought less of white players. Maybe he did, I just don't remember. Either way, still not the same ballpark as the death threat letters. Now if he's making all his decisions based on race rather than a weird infatuation with speed, that's a big issue. I'm just not convinced that's the case.

[Tracer Bullet]

Yes, the ones that sent death threats to Hank Aaron as he approached the Babe's homerun total were true racists. He was good and they still hated him. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but I don't remember hearing of Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Dawson or Sosa getting any death threats. Well, Sammy might have after he fell out favor but you get the point.

 

What the hell does that mean? Anyone who uses race is a racist by definition, whether or not they're sending hate mail or celebrating one's accomplishments. What's the difference between "you suck, " or "that is actually pretty good"?

 

I don't think that's what cubfan1955 was saying. I understood him to say that "true racists" hate certain groups and will hate them even when they're doing well. Whether they use racial slurs to speak negatively or positively about someone wasn't the distinction. The distinction was whether the subject of their hatred was good or bad at his job. Apparently "true racists" voice their racism at all times, whereas racists who aren't "true racists" only voice their racism when a player isn't doing well and possibly even cheer when the subject is performing well.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Are we now measuring degrees of racism?

 

Not sure if you're saying I don't make sense or not, but I'm just suggesting what the original poster meant.

 

But, yes, there certainly are degrees of racism. I don't think that's a novel idea. All racism is bad, but there are people who unconsciously act a particular way when confronted with people of a particular race and then there's the KKK. Somewhere in the middle is your run of the mill person who uses racial slurs now and then when he thinks present company won't be offended or is drunk (or for other reasons has the filter off). They are all bad, but the degrees exist.

[Tracer Bullet]

The thing that bugs me most about Dusty playing the race card... are his own blatantly racist comments, which the media still gives him a pass on...

 

We're going to be paying for hiring Baker for a LONG time...

 

Other than the comment about heat not having as much of an effect on black players, what else did he say? I just don't remember any other comments (though there may have been others).

 

And let's not compare a death threat using a racial slur with a comment about some races not being as effected by heat as other races. His comment was associated with race, but he didn't indicate that he thought less of other races because they were effected more by hot weather. Not even the same ballpark, really.

 

racism is racism. Certainly, death threats are way over any line... race doesn't really matter.

 

But saying black players are better than white players because they can "take the heat" better, is as blatantly racist as you can get. And it's obvious he uses that mentality to make player decisions.

 

so, to me, he has no right to claim hurt over racist remarks. Are they wrong? Absolutely! But he's just as bad, if not worse, as his racism directly impacts people's jobs and careers! threats and slurs are horrible, hurtful, and just wrong, but they're also just words...

 

Ever received a death threat? How many do you suppose Dusty has received? They're just words, but they're words threatening to kill you. That's bad. You're telling me that negatively impacting someone's baseball career is more harmful then threatening to kill them? Just want to make sure I'm understanding you.

 

How much he uses the "take the heat" thing to make decisions, I think is less clear than you do. As I posted above, I think Dusty has an affinity for guys he perceives to be fast. If he sees a black player and just believes (consciously or subconsciously) he's faster than a white player b/c one guy is black and the other guy is white, that's bad, but it's different than saying "I'm not ever playing any white guys." Race may consciously or subconsciously come into Dusty's mind when he's making decisions, but no one knows for sure how much of a role that plays.

[halplm]

whether it enters into his decisions conciously or unconciously is irrelivant. The man is a racist.

 

We have laws against job descrimination based on race. It's about as big a deal as you can get with racism. I would bet all baseball managers get death threats, and it has nothing to do with race... it has to do with baseball fanatics who probably never leave their basement for fear of missing a move in thier fantasy league... or people who write letters while drunk after their team loses.

 

The implication of articles like this one, is that Dusty is a tragic hero... right up there with civil rights leaders who had to deal with death threats that were REAL, and directly because of their race. He suffers for his race, but keeps on plugging on because he has a job to do.

 

And according to him, his job is to put the best players on the field... and according to him, those players are black.

 

That is far worse to me than any threats he gets in letters from ignorant fans.

[FergieJ31]

He absolutely did indicate he thought less of other races. He's a racist who wants more fast black players. [snip]

 

Are you seriously saying Dusty is racist? That is the silliest thing I've ever read on NSBB.

[goonys evil twin]

He absolutely did indicate he thought less of other races. He's a racist who wants more fast black players. [snip]

 

Are you seriously saying Dusty is racist? That is the silliest thing I've ever read on NSBB.

 

Yes, I'm seriously saying it, and Dusty has only supported that notion with his words and actions.

[FergieJ31]

Besides the well-publicized quote:

 

"Black players' skin color is more conducive to heat than it is to the lighter-skinned people. I don't see brothers running around burnt."

 

What evidence do you have that Dusty is racist? If it's an opinion and you have no facts to back it up - fine - just admit it's your opinion.

 

The reaction to that particular comment has been overblown. It was a regrettable comment which he should have kept to himself, but it was a literal comment about skin pigment and ability to stay out in the sun. Not about race in general, unless you want to defend the position that race is nothing but skin pigment. How would you define the word 'racist' anyway? Isn't usually associated with hate and superiority?

 

Honestly, the Dusty bashing has gone to a new level, and it's getting absolutely ridiculous.

[Tracer Bullet]

whether it enters into his decisions conciously or unconciously is irrelivant. The man is a racist.

 

We have laws against job descrimination based on race. It's about as big a deal as you can get with racism. I would bet all baseball managers get death threats, and it has nothing to do with race... it has to do with baseball fanatics who probably never leave their basement for fear of missing a move in thier fantasy league... or people who write letters while drunk after their team loses.

 

The implication of articles like this one, is that Dusty is a tragic hero... right up there with civil rights leaders who had to deal with death threats that were REAL, and directly because of their race. He suffers for his race, but keeps on plugging on because he has a job to do.

 

And according to him, his job is to put the best players on the field... and according to him, those players are black.

 

That is far worse to me than any threats he gets in letters from ignorant fans.

 

Just point me to some evidence to back up your assertion that he's a racist.

[halplm]

There need be no more evidence than what has already been discussed. It's not just a "regrettable comment." It's not just something he should have "kept to himself." He honestly believes black people are quicker and better in heat, and therefore better at baseball.

 

If that's not blatantly racist then I don't know what is!

 

Disregarding the fact that speed and ability to deal with the sun are WAY down the list of important factors for a baseball player...

[Jerry Mumphrey]

Fine, I'll tackle this one...

 

Here's my list of Dusty's pets (i.e. players given more chances for success by Dusty than their statistical histories should have allowed):

 

Neifi (always batting second)

Macias (1st pinch hitter)

Pagan (ordained MVP despite no success)

Novoa (rubberarm)

Pierre (take a day off when you're killing the team)

Jones (shouldn't start vs. lefties)

Hollandsworth (should not have started a whole season)

Hawkins (shows he's not a closer repeatedly)

CPatt (always at the top of the order)

Rusch (not a legit #5)

Clines (useless)

 

Any more?

 

So the list is about 80% black, quite over-representative of the league make-up. So I'd say yes, Dusty does tend to favor black players and coaches. Is this bad? Only when you're desperately trying to win the pennant with an overpaid roster contructed by a clueless GM.

[FergieJ31]

There need be no more evidence than what has already been discussed. It's not just a "regrettable comment." It's not just something he should have "kept to himself." He honestly believes black people are quicker and better in heat, and therefore better at baseball.

 

If that's not blatantly racist then I don't know what is!

 

Disregarding the fact that speed and ability to deal with the sun are WAY down the list of important factors for a baseball player...

 

Controversial, yes, but racist? The evidence isn't there. If one is racist and in the league for as long as Dusty has, shouldn't he have a string of incriminating incidents and quotes by now?

 

Do you want to really pretend to know what's in his heart? I'm sorry but when you say "He honestly believes black people are quicker and better in heat, and therefore better at baseball", that's pure conjecture. You have nothing to back it up.

 

Say what you will about Dusty's managerial skills and I'll most certainly agree with you: he's not a good game manager. But let's stop with the racism crap.

[halplm]

you don't say things like that on accident... not when you're a public figure... unless your horrendously stupid, or believe what you say is true, and therefore not questionable.

 

ok, I'll grant you he may just be horrendously stupid.

[FergieJ31]

Fine, I'll tackle this one...

 

Here's my list of Dusty's pets (i.e. players given more chances for success by Dusty than their statistical histories should have allowed):

 

Neifi (always batting second)

Macias (1st pinch hitter)

Pagan (ordained MVP despite no success)

Novoa (rubberarm)

Pierre (take a day off when you're killing the team)

Jones (shouldn't start vs. lefties)

Hollandsworth (should not have started a whole season)

Hawkins (shows he's not a closer repeatedly)

CPatt (always at the top of the order)

Rusch (not a legit #5)

Clines (useless)

 

Any more?

 

So the list is about 80% black, quite over-representative of the league make-up. So I'd say yes, Dusty does tend to favor black players and coaches. Is this bad? Only when you're desperately trying to win the pennant with an overpaid roster contructed by a clueless GM.

 

As it is, this list is nothing more than Exhibit A on why Dusty is a bad manager. Why doesn't he play Blanco over Barrett more if he hates white guys? He'd even have an old-fashioned baseball maxim on his side (and I'm certainly not saying this is always good advice): "put your best D guys up the middle: C, SS, 2B and CF"

[cubfan1955]

There need be no more evidence than what has already been discussed. It's not just a "regrettable comment." It's not just something he should have "kept to himself." He honestly believes black people are quicker and better in heat, and therefore better at baseball.

 

If that's not blatantly racist then I don't know what is!

 

Disregarding the fact that speed and ability to deal with the sun are WAY down the list of important factors for a baseball player...

 

Controversial, yes, but racist? The evidence isn't there. If one is racist and in the league for as long as Dusty has, shouldn't he have a string of incriminating incidents and quotes by now?

 

Do you want to really pretend to know what's in his heart? I'm sorry but when you say "He honestly believes black people are quicker and better in heat, and therefore better at baseball", that's pure conjecture. You have nothing to back it up.

 

Say what you will about Dusty's managerial skills and I'll most certainly agree with you: he's not a good game manager. But let's stop with the racism crap.

Dusty's quotes are on about the same level as Al Campanis a few ago whom was promptly labeled a racist and fired.

 

Al Campanis said:

 

Campanis said in a television interview that blacks "might not have the necessities" to be managers or general managers.

 

Dusty Baker said:

 

DUSTY BAKER, CHICAGO CUBS MANAGER: Personally, I like to play in the heat. You know, It's easier for me. I mean, it's easier for most Latin guys and most minority people because most of us come from heat. You know, you don't find too many brothers from New Hampshire and Maine and upper peninsula and Michigan, right? I mean, you know, we're brought over here for the heat. Right? I mean, ain't that -- isn't that history? Weren't we brought over here because we could take the heat?

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a long time ago, though.

 

BAKER: So?

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You might have become acclimated to a different climate.

 

BAKER: No, but your skin color is more conducive to heat than it is to the lighter skin colored people are to heat.

 

CNN Transcripts: CNN Transcripts