Next year offensively...

[TruffleShuffle]

OBP -- doesn't appear to be an indicator of a winning team. Only 2 of top 10 OBP teams are leading their division and one division leader is almost near the bottom in OBP.

 

The bottom 10 teams in baseball rank as follows in OBP:

 

Houston - 25th

Florida - 19th

Atlanta - 15th

Baltimore - 11th

Washington - 13th

Cleveland - 4th

Cubs - 29th

Tampa - 30th

Pittsburgh - 22nd

KC - 21st

 

 

So out of the 10 worst teams in baseball, 6 of them are in the bottom 12 of OBP, and only one is in the top 10. That's Cleveland, and their record is more a function of bad luck (more runs scored than allowed) and bad pitching than of bad hitting (4th in baseball in runs scored).

 

 

The top 10 teams in baseball:

 

Detroit - 18th

Yankees - 3rd

Boston - 1st

White Sox - 6th

Mets - 16th

Twins - 8th

Cardinals - 9th

Blue Jays - 2nd

A's - 27th

Angels - 26th

 

 

So, out of that group, only 2 are in the bottom 12 of OBP, and 6 are in the top 10.

 

 

Want more? Here are the top 10 teams in OBP, and how they rank in runs scored

 

Boston - 2nd

Toronto - 6th

NY Yankees - 3rd

Cleveland - 4th

LA Dodgers - 10th

White Sox - 1st

Cincinnati - 15th

Minnesota - 11th

St. Louis - 17th

Texas - 9th

 

 

And the bottom 10 teams in OBP, and how they rank in runs scored:

 

KC - 26th

Pittsburgh - 25th

Milwaukee - 22nd

SF - 21st

Houston - 28th

LA Angels - 16th

Oakland - 27th

Seattle - 18th

Cubs - 30th

Tampa Bay - 29th

 

 

 

I don't know what can more clearly prove the point. Teams that get on base effectively score more runs. Teams that don't get on base, don't score runs. Teams that score more runs are more likely to win games.

Edited August 2, 2006 by TruffleShuffle

[ConstableRabbit]

OBP -- doesn't appear to be an indicator of a winning team. Only 2 of top 10 OBP teams are leading their division and one division leader is almost near the bottom in OBP.

 

I don't know what can more clearly prove the point. Teams that get on base effectively score more runs. Teams that don't get on base, don't score runs. Teams that score more runs are more likely to win games.

 

Good post.

 

Essentially, there are two parts to baseball. The hitting and scoring end, and the pitching and defensive end.

 

OBP only deals with the hitting and scoring end. You still have to score more than the other team to win, and that usually doesn't happen without some decent pitching. OBP doesn't automatically make it ok to have the league's worst staff.

[David]

Just to answer your question, I haven't been at a computer since yesterday. I also admitted I didn't like guys whose obp is driven by their average aka Pierre, but what other options are there aka Dave Roberts.

 

My preferred option (which has been campaigned for here by vance and others) would be to stick Jones in CF and get a bat in RF, where they are much easier to come by.

 

And if your question was regarding a leadoff hitter, we don't need the little quick guy who might steal bases. We just need someone who's really good at getting on base.

 

It's a shame. We had a decent leadoff hitter on the roster, already. Unfortunately, he didn't hit there at all this season, and we shipped him off for basically nothing on Monday.

 

Oh, well. He's in a better place. :x

[C.C.]

Just to answer your question, I haven't been at a computer since yesterday. I also admitted I didn't like guys whose obp is driven by their average aka Pierre, but what other options are there aka Dave Roberts.

 

My preferred option (which has been campaigned for here by vance and others) would be to stick Jones in CF and get a bat in RF, where they are much easier to come by.

 

And if your question was regarding a leadoff hitter, we don't need the little quick guy who might steal bases. We just need someone who's really good at getting on base.

 

It's a shame. We had a decent leadoff hitter on the roster, already. Unfortunately, he didn't hit there at all this season, and we shipped him off for basically nothing on Monday.

 

Oh, well. He's in a better place. :x

 

I don't consider Walker a leadoff hitter at all.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't consider Walker a leadoff hitter at all.

 

That's your problem, not his. Prototypical, better year, stereotypical, leadoff hitters are grossly overrated. Walker could do the job better than anybody the Cubs have had for several years.

[C.C.]

I don't consider Walker a leadoff hitter at all.

 

That's your problem, not his. Prototypical, better year, stereotypical, leadoff hitters are grossly overrated. Walker could do the job better than anybody the Cubs have had for several years.

 

Has he ever leadoff in his entire career? I think there is more to leading off then getting on base right? This year Walkers OBP is 20 points higher then Juan Pierre ,but isn't juan more of a threat because of his speed? Isn't Walker more suited for the 2nd place hitting slot?

[goonys evil twin]

Has he ever leadoff in his entire career?

 

Why should that matter? The most important part of the job is getting on base. Speed is way back in the distance in terms of importance.

[David]

Has he ever leadoff in his entire career?

 

Why should that matter? The most important part of the job is getting on base. Speed is way back in the distance in terms of importance.

 

Way, WAYYYYYY back. But, to answer the question, yes, he has.

[cheapseats]

Has he ever leadoff in his entire career?

 

Why should that matter? The most important part of the job is getting on base. Speed is way back in the distance in terms of importance.

 

Way, WAYYYYYY back. But, to answer the question, yes, he has.

 

2004 was such a long time ago. :twisted:

[David]

Has he ever leadoff in his entire career?

 

Why should that matter? The most important part of the job is getting on base. Speed is way back in the distance in terms of importance.

 

Way, WAYYYYYY back. But, to answer the question, yes, he has.

 

2004 was such a long time ago. :twisted:

 

LOL... Actually, meant that speed was wayyy wayyy back in terms of importance. But I could see how that could be misinterpreted.

 

Did Walk not lead off at all in 05?

 

EDIT - Just checked. Only 2 AB's at leadoff in 05. Dusty is brilliant.

 

Man, was Walker good leading off in 04. 228 AB's .294/.370/.545.. but, no. We needed a "leadoff hitter," so we've seen Corey Patterson and Juan Pierre at the top. :x :x :x

Edited August 2, 2006 by David

[Transmogrified Tiger]

2 ABs

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Has he ever leadoff in his entire career?

 

Why should that matter? The most important part of the job is getting on base. Speed is way back in the distance in terms of importance.

 

Way, WAYYYYYY back. But, to answer the question, yes, he has.

 

2004 was such a long time ago. :twisted:

 

LOL... Actually, meant that speed was wayyy wayyy back in terms of importance. But I could see how that could be misinterpreted.

 

Did Walk not lead off at all in 05?

 

Of course he didn't lead-off in 2005, but why should Walker be faulted for the misguided ideas of his manager.

[jmajew]

I definitely agree defense doesn't win championships. Great players win championships. The D-Backs won because of schilling and Johnson. The Red Sox because of Martinez, Schilling, Manny, Ortiz. The White Sox because of their 5 great pitchers in the playoffs. The Miami Heat won because of Dwayne Wade the Bulls won 6 Championships because of Jordan and Pippen.

 

My point is simply that what the Cubs need is a couple of realiable superstars who are more than willing to carry the load. Then we need to put solid role players around them to fill the gaps. Barrett, Izturis, Murton/Jones fit the bill.

 

I do not think Carlos Lee is the answer in Left. I would much rather have someone like Soriano who is more accustumed to being the man and being in the spotlight.

[CP_414]

I definitely agree defense doesn't win championships. Great players win championships. The D-Backs won because of schilling and Johnson. The Red Sox because of Martinez, Schilling, Manny, Ortiz. The White Sox because of their 5 great pitchers in the playoffs. The Miami Heat won because of Dwayne Wade the Bulls won 6 Championships because of Jordan and Pippen.

 

My point is simply that what the Cubs need is a couple of realiable superstars who are more than willing to carry the load. Then we need to put solid role players around them to fill the gaps. Barrett, Izturis, Murton/Jones fit the bill.

 

I do not think Carlos Lee is the answer in Left. I would much rather have someone like Soriano who is more accustumed to being the man and being in the spotlight.

 

Carlos Lee has been "the man" in Milwaukee since he got there. This is the 1st time in his career Soriano has been the best player on his team.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I definitely agree defense doesn't win championships. Great players win championships. The D-Backs won because of schilling and Johnson. The Red Sox because of Martinez, Schilling, Manny, Ortiz. The White Sox because of their 5 great pitchers in the playoffs. The Miami Heat won because of Dwayne Wade the Bulls won 6 Championships because of Jordan and Pippen.

 

My point is simply that what the Cubs need is a couple of realiable superstars who are more than willing to carry the load. Then we need to put solid role players around them to fill the gaps. Barrett, Izturis, Murton/Jones fit the bill.

 

I do not think Carlos Lee is the answer in Left. I would much rather have someone like Soriano who is more accustumed to being the man and being in the spotlight.

I'd say the Heat won because of Wade and a few incompetents in stripped shirts calling a few phantom fouls...but that's an argument for another thread.

[David]

I definitely agree defense doesn't win championships. Great players win championships. The D-Backs won because of schilling and Johnson. The Red Sox because of Martinez, Schilling, Manny, Ortiz. The White Sox because of their 5 great pitchers in the playoffs. The Miami Heat won because of Dwayne Wade the Bulls won 6 Championships because of Jordan and Pippen.

 

My point is simply that what the Cubs need is a couple of realiable superstars who are more than willing to carry the load. Then we need to put solid role players around them to fill the gaps. Barrett, Izturis, Murton/Jones fit the bill.

 

I do not think Carlos Lee is the answer in Left. I would much rather have someone like Soriano who is more accustumed to being the man and being in the spotlight.

I'd say the Heat won because of Wade and a few incompetents in stripped shirts calling a few phantom fouls...but that's an argument for another thread.

 

There were NFL referees at the NBA finals?? :shock:

[SoonerCubFan]

So LF is the only new face you think we'll see on an absolutely horrible team next year? I think we'll see new faces at LF, 2B, and SS. I think Izturis becomes defense off the bench for hopefully a smarter manager. A smarter manager also puts Pierre down in the order somewhere, and gets some OBP (that we'd obviously have to get through trade or FA) up at the top.

 

IMO, the Cubs are really not that far off from being solid offensively, but the problem is going to be (again) having one too many middle IF bats in the lineup.

 

One mandatory move will be to get our 3-4-5 slots solidifed in 900+ OPS form, which means Lee has to bouce back, Ramirez has to stay put, and we HAVE to add another big bat in one of the corner OF slots and/or at 2B.

Look at the 1967-1971 Cubs, who had a terrible leadoff hitter and mediocre #2 hitter plus lousy bottom of the lineup, yet were always in the Top 3 in the NL in runs scored because they had great 3-4-5 hitters.

 

In conclusion, Pierre, Izturis and Jones/Murton would be fine in the 1, 8 and 7 slots, respectively, if we could somehow manage to keep Ramirez, add BOTH a solid 2B bat and a high OPS corner OF. That team could be Top 5 NL offense team with very solid D to boot. But if we have all of them AND Cedeno we'll be a bat short, which is what it looks like it's going to be at best. If so, I'd still see a return to around the 7th to 9th place in runs.

[FergieJ31]

IMO, the Cubs are really not that far off from being solid offensively, but the problem is going to be (again) having one too many middle IF bats in the lineup.

 

One mandatory move will be to get our 3-4-5 slots solidifed in 900+ OPS form, which means Lee has to bouce back, Ramirez has to stay put, and we HAVE to add another big bat in one of the corner OF slots and/or at 2B.

Look at the 1967-1971 Cubs, who had a terrible leadoff hitter and mediocre #2 hitter plus lousy bottom of the lineup, yet were always in the Top 3 in the NL in runs scored because they had great 3-4-5 hitters.

 

In conclusion, Pierre, Izturis and Jones/Murton would be fine in the 1, 8 and 7 slots, respectively, if we could somehow manage to keep Ramirez, add BOTH a solid 2B bat and a high OPS corner OF. That team could be Top 5 NL offense team with very solid D to boot. But if we have all of them AND Cedeno we'll be a bat short, which is what it looks like it's going to be at best. If so, I'd still see a return to around the 7th to 9th place in runs.

 

Completely agree with every word. And the 2B I wouldn't mind seeing is Ray Durham -- especially if they can package Ronny with a minor league arm for a solid bench player.

 

That high OPS corner OF spot appears to be the most elusive ... at this point, realistically, I think I'd rejoice if it did turn out to be CLee. He's about the best we can hope for, isn't he?

[jmajew]

I definitely agree defense doesn't win championships. Great players win championships. The D-Backs won because of schilling and Johnson. The Red Sox because of Martinez, Schilling, Manny, Ortiz. The White Sox because of their 5 great pitchers in the playoffs. The Miami Heat won because of Dwayne Wade the Bulls won 6 Championships because of Jordan and Pippen.

 

My point is simply that what the Cubs need is a couple of realiable superstars who are more than willing to carry the load. Then we need to put solid role players around them to fill the gaps. Barrett, Izturis, Murton/Jones fit the bill.

 

I do not think Carlos Lee is the answer in Left. I would much rather have someone like Soriano who is more accustumed to being the man and being in the spotlight.

 

Carlos Lee has been "the man" in Milwaukee since he got there. This is the 1st time in his career Soriano has been the best player on his team.

 

See that is my point though. He was in a low pressure situation in Milwaukee. I want someone who knows what the pressure is like to play in a Chicago, Boston, or New York.

[waffle]

I was thinking about this last night, and I agree with someone's analysis earlier in the thread.

 

Our lineup for next year is likely pretty set.

 

Our infield is set I think with Lee/Ram/Cedeno/Iz/Barret. That looks pretty good

I expect us to sign Pierre

Unfortunately it looks like Jones is staying

Murton or someone else, I'd rather play Murton.

 

That is likely to be your starting D for next year. Is it terrible? No.

 

Pitching obviously is a big ? mark

 

I think a good manager could make that team competitive. Unfortunately....

[C.C.]

I was thinking about this last night, and I agree with someone's analysis earlier in the thread.

 

Our lineup for next year is likely pretty set.

 

Our infield is set I think with Lee/Ram/Cedeno/Iz/Barret. That looks pretty good

I expect us to sign Pierre

Unfortunately it looks like Jones is staying

Murton or someone else, I'd rather play Murton.

 

That is likely to be your starting D for next year. Is it terrible? No.

 

Pitching obviously is a big ? mark

 

I think a good manager could make that team competitive. Unfortunately....

 

I'd be shocked if Murton is the starting LF'er next year.

[waffle]

ok fine. what about the other 8? pretty set

[SoonerCubFan]

Unfortunately it looks like Jones is staying

Murton or someone else, I'd rather play Murton.

 

It doesn't have to be unfortunate or an either/or situation. If we can pull in that 900+ OPS corner OF, a Jones/Murton platoon could yield another 850+ OPS position for us, quite acceptable in the 6 or 7 hole, or even the 2 hole on Murton's playing days, depending on what we do at 2B.

[SoonerCubFan]

That high OPS corner OF spot appears to be the most elusive ... at this point, realistically, I think I'd rejoice if it did turn out to be CLee. He's about the best we can hope for, isn't he?

 

CLee does still look like the most viable and Hendry-like move, although he has been more of a 825-850 OPS guy. That would still be an upgrade of 150+ OPS points in LF (and he could really explode at Wrigley) and enable a platoon in RF that could gain us another 100 OPS there as well.

 

That said, I'd still love to see us go hard after Cabrera. Adding him to the lineup would mean a huge lift all over. Soriano would be about in the CLee category but probably more expensive. I wouldn't mind seeing JD Drew in RF either.

[C.C.]

That high OPS corner OF spot appears to be the most elusive ... at this point, realistically, I think I'd rejoice if it did turn out to be CLee. He's about the best we can hope for, isn't he?

 

CLee does still look like the most viable and Hendry-like move, although he has been more of a 825-850 OPS guy. That would still be an upgrade of 150+ OPS points in LF (and he could really explode at Wrigley) and enable a platoon in RF that could gain us another 100 OPS there as well.

 

That said, I'd still love to see us go hard after Cabrera. Adding him to the lineup would mean a huge lift all over. Soriano would be about in the CLee category but probably more expensive. I wouldn't mind seeing JD Drew in RF either.

 

What would Marlins want for Cabrera? That would be scary...