Philly-Boston Game

[texascub]

Is anyone else following the game right now? It's tied 6-6 in the top of the 12th, and they've used a combined 14 pitchers so far. A surprising turn around for a game that was scoreless heading into the bottom of the 6th.

[texascub]

And just as I post this Philly goes up by 1 on a Rollins double.

[texascub]

Crisp with a ground-rule double to lead off the 12th, it looks like this thing could go for awhile.

[texascub]

Youkilis tied the game up again and he's on 2nd with 2 outs.

[texascub]

Great game, Oritz won it with a single in the bottom of the 12th with 2 out and 2 on. How many game winning hits does he have this year?

[Cubzfan64]

I don't know but I can think of at least 2 walk off home runs that won games this season and I know he's had a number of other ones. I don't know what it is about him, but I swear it's not coincidence or luck that he's got so many game winning hits - he seems to really bear down and come through in the clutch.

 

By the way, his game winning hit was an opposite field line drive single against the shift that every team seems to pull on him. The guy flat out knows how to work a count and drive the ball wherever it's being pitched.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't know but I can think of at least 2 walk off home runs that won games this season and I know he's had a number of other ones. I don't know what it is about him, but I swear it's not coincidence or luck that he's got so many game winning hits - he seems to really bear down and come through in the clutch.

 

By the way, his game winning hit was an opposite field line drive single against the shift that every team seems to pull on him. The guy flat out knows how to work a count and drive the ball wherever it's being pitched.

 

Ortiz 2006

Overall .264 .374 .551

Runners on .298 .388 .583

RISP .279 .398 .523

Close and late .231 .286 .667

 

2003-2005

Overall .297 .383 .600

Runners on .309 .409 .575

RISP .328 .425 .555

Close and late .326 .408 .724

 

When you are a really good player, and you player for a really good team that is really popular and really emphasizes OBP, you are going to have a lot of chances to have meaningful hits. All it takes is a handful of walk offs or other heroics to give you the label (just as Jim Leyritz), and the more chances you get more likely you'll cash in on a few. As long as your failures don't stick out too much, and your team enjoys success, they will forget those and concentrate on the big ones. This explains why Jeter is excused for coming up short so often and considered clutch, even though his postseason numbers mirror his regular seasons and he has come up short repeatedly in recent postseasons.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

I managed to make it down there on my off day and got a $45 ticket for $20, right near the RF pole. That's probably the second best regular season game I've attended (the Mongo game at Wrigley being the best). Ortiz is a great, great hitter (not just slugger). The Loretta AB really set that up though. He worked the pitcher for 9 pitches and drew a 3-2 walk. It was hot today and he hung one to Big Papi.

 

Ortiz leads baseball now with 22 go-ahead RBI. I'm not a believer in clutch hitting, but Ortiz stretches that thought to the limit. I think what you have is the best leadoff hitter (.431 OBP!) in the game followed by a #2 hitter with a .360 OBP. Youkilis and Loretta have reached base 212 times this season batting 1-2. Incredible. Ortiz just comes to the plate with guys out there. He's got Ramirez behind him. He has it made, but he still has to come through. And, he does.

[abuck1220]

without looking at his numbers, i would guess that alex gonzalez would make a better argument for the existence of clutch hitting. he was a terrible hitter who (seemingly...again, i haven't looked at the numbers) hit a bunch of late homeruns. ortiz is a great hitter who is still great in the 9th inning. didn't stop the guys on weei from laughing at people who don't believe in clutch hitting when ortiz hit the walkoff on saturday.

[Cubzfan64]

You guys all have good points - I think it's probably very correct that Ortiz's successes are memorable while his failures aren't. What I mean to say is that as one of you pointed out, Boston has had a good team the last few years and on the occassions where Ortiz has failed, someone else (Manny etc...) comes up big allowing you to forget that failure.

 

That said, I have to say I have a great deal of respect for a guy like Ortiz who can crush the ball when needed as well as he can punch a drive to the opposite field if that's where the pitcher is gonna toss it to him.

[Careless]

I don't know but I can think of at least 2 walk off home runs that won games this season and I know he's had a number of other ones. I don't know what it is about him, but I swear it's not coincidence or luck that he's got so many game winning hits - he seems to really bear down and come through in the clutch.

 

By the way, his game winning hit was an opposite field line drive single against the shift that every team seems to pull on him. The guy flat out knows how to work a count and drive the ball wherever it's being pitched.

 

Ortiz 2006

Overall .264 .374 .551

Runners on .298 .388 .583

RISP .279 .398 .523

Close and late .231 .286 .667

 

2003-2005

Overall .297 .383 .600

Runners on .309 .409 .575

RISP .328 .425 .555

Close and late .326 .408 .724

 

When you are a really good player, and you player for a really good team that is really popular and really emphasizes OBP, you are going to have a lot of chances to have meaningful hits. All it takes is a handful of walk offs or other heroics to give you the label (just as Jim Leyritz), and the more chances you get more likely you'll cash in on a few. As long as your failures don't stick out too much, and your team enjoys success, they will forget those and concentrate on the big ones. This explains why Jeter is excused for coming up short so often and considered clutch, even though his postseason numbers mirror his regular seasons and he has come up short repeatedly in recent postseasons.

I don't get your argument. "Here are some numbers showing that he's been better in the clutch. Then I will say that you probably just think he's better in the clutch because of the way memories/ESPN work"

edit: I guess it would make sense if you went all out and found numbers for many of his teammates showing they, too, had good clutch numbers

[JonnyRed]

The only thing getting me through this miserable excuse for a baseball season is my favorite AL team, the Boston Red Sox. I've been a fan since Bill Buckner was traded to the Sox back in 84 and even liked watching Yaz, Fisk and Rice before that. Red Sox fans and Cubs fans are one in the same---except for the one very important thing, fans in Beantown have enjoyed the sweet taste of World Series champaigne, while we've been left to suffer the taste of warm Old Style.

 

I'm to the point where I really don't care if the Cubs win another game this season, because I'll be pulling for Big Papi, V-tek and Schill to knock off the southsiders come this October!

[texascub]

The only thing getting me through this miserable excuse for a baseball season is my favorite AL team, the Boston Red Sox. I've been a fan since Bill Buckner was traded to the Sox back in 84 and even liked watching Yaz, Fisk and Rice before that. Red Sox fans and Cubs fans are one in the same---except for the one very important thing, fans in Beantown have enjoyed the sweet taste of World Series champaigne, while we've been left to suffer the taste of warm Old Style.

 

I'm to the point where I really don't care if the Cubs win another game this season, because I'll be pulling for Big Papi, V-tek and Schill to knock off the southsiders come this October!

 

My 2nd team, the Rangers, are helping me through this season as well. Since they're much closer and much more talented, I may need to change my priorities until the Cubs change theirs.

[soccer10k]

I don't know but I can think of at least 2 walk off home runs that won games this season and I know he's had a number of other ones. I don't know what it is about him, but I swear it's not coincidence or luck that he's got so many game winning hits - he seems to really bear down and come through in the clutch.

 

By the way, his game winning hit was an opposite field line drive single against the shift that every team seems to pull on him. The guy flat out knows how to work a count and drive the ball wherever it's being pitched.

 

Ortiz 2006

Overall .264 .374 .551

Runners on .298 .388 .583

RISP .279 .398 .523

Close and late .231 .286 .667

 

2003-2005

Overall .297 .383 .600

Runners on .309 .409 .575

RISP .328 .425 .555

Close and late .326 .408 .724

 

When you are a really good player, and you player for a really good team that is really popular and really emphasizes OBP, you are going to have a lot of chances to have meaningful hits. All it takes is a handful of walk offs or other heroics to give you the label (just as Jim Leyritz), and the more chances you get more likely you'll cash in on a few. As long as your failures don't stick out too much, and your team enjoys success, they will forget those and concentrate on the big ones. This explains why Jeter is excused for coming up short so often and considered clutch, even though his postseason numbers mirror his regular seasons and he has come up short repeatedly in recent postseasons.

 

What exactly does close and late mean? I wouldn't consider a hit to be clutch in a game in which your team is up by one in the ninth inning. That same hit would fall under "close and late" though. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I'm saying that your "close and late" stats are vague.

[texascub]

On sportcenter, they were mentioning that the Red Sox recently gave Ortiz a plaque recognizing him as the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox's history. They also said that the only way he could be more comfortable at the plate would be to bring a chais lounge, some Cuban Cigar, and some drinks with him.

[srbin84]

I don't know but I can think of at least 2 walk off home runs that won games this season and I know he's had a number of other ones. I don't know what it is about him, but I swear it's not coincidence or luck that he's got so many game winning hits - he seems to really bear down and come through in the clutch.

 

By the way, his game winning hit was an opposite field line drive single against the shift that every team seems to pull on him. The guy flat out knows how to work a count and drive the ball wherever it's being pitched.

 

Ortiz 2006

Overall .264 .374 .551

Runners on .298 .388 .583

RISP .279 .398 .523

Close and late .231 .286 .667

 

2003-2005

Overall .297 .383 .600

Runners on .309 .409 .575

RISP .328 .425 .555

Close and late .326 .408 .724

 

The fact that he walks much less and slugs much more in close and late situations is why I think he is a clutch hitter. He doesn't pass it on to the next guy. He swings, and when he hits the ball, he hits it so well that it justifies the lack of walks and in turn brings him a lot of clutch RBI.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

On sportcenter, they were mentioning that the Red Sox recently gave Ortiz a plaque recognizing him as the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox's history. They also said that the only way he could be more comfortable at the plate would be to bring a chais lounge, some Cuban Cigar, and some drinks with him.

 

 

Why did Minnesota put him on waivers? Did he just happen to blossom in Boston? I don't really remember him, but then again I rarely paid much attention to the Twins.

[texascub]

On sportcenter, they were mentioning that the Red Sox recently gave Ortiz a plaque recognizing him as the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox's history. They also said that the only way he could be more comfortable at the plate would be to bring a chais lounge, some Cuban Cigar, and some drinks with him.

 

 

Why did Minnesota put him on waivers? Did he just happen to blossom in Boston? I don't really remember him, but then again I rarely paid much attention to the Twins.

 

His best season in Minny was in 02, right before he was put on waivers. He put up a line of .272/.339/.500/.839 with 20HRs and 75 RBI in 125 games. That's not bad and he was only 26 that year. Since he hadn't spent much time in the majors prior to that I wouldn't think it was a contractual problem, IMO it was just sheer stupidity.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

One of the reasons cited for dumping Ortiz was the belief that he could not and would not ever hit left-handed pitching. Certainly, it was true in 2002 that he could not hit LHP with the Twins, but he mashed RHP. Reason enough to keep him and try to work on his development against LHP ? After all, he had just turned 26.

 

2002, Twins, vs. LHP: .637 OPS in 118 AB

2002, Twins, vs. RHP: .919 OPS in 294 AB

 

Then, the move to Boston:

 

2003, vs. LHP: .674 OPS in 116 AB

2003, vs. RHP: 1.058 OPS in 332 AB

2004, vs. LHP: .784 OPS in 196 AB

2004, vs. RHP: 1.084 OPS in 386 AB

2005, vs. LHP: .894 OPS in 205 AB

2005, vs. RHP: 1.058 OPS in 332 AB

2006, vs. LHP: .870 OPS in 97 AB

2006, vs. RHP: .975 OPS in 176 AB

 

Would that kind of development have occured in Minnesota ? Who knows. Through his struggles, through pennant races, Boston continued to allow him to hit everyone. And, look at the rewards.

 

Matt Murton will never be David Ortiz, but stories like Ortiz just kill me. Teams give up on young players because they assume the player can't do something. Other teams focus on that players strengths and look it improve those weaknesses to an acceptable level.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't get your argument. "Here are some numbers showing that he's been better in the clutch. Then I will say that you probably just think he's better in the clutch because of the way memories/ESPN work"

 

I guess you just didn't look at the numbers. His "clutch" stats aren't routinely better than his regular stats. Sometimes they are a little better, sometimes a little worse, and in the case of this year, his close and late are much worse. He's the same hitter virtually all the time. And that's a very good hitter. So, when you give a very good hitter lots of opportunities to have a bit clutch hits, which is what a great team with great team OBP will give a guy, you will have numerous instances where he'll come through. You'll also have a lot of times when he'll fail, just like every ballplayer has lots of times when they fail.

[Chocolate Milk]

I don't get your argument. "Here are some numbers showing that he's been better in the clutch. Then I will say that you probably just think he's better in the clutch because of the way memories/ESPN work"

 

I guess you just didn't look at the numbers. His "clutch" stats aren't routinely better than his regular stats. Sometimes they are a little better, sometimes a little worse, and in the case of this year, his close and late are much worse. He's the same hitter virtually all the time. And that's a very good hitter. So, when you give a very good hitter lots of opportunities to have a bit clutch hits, which is what a great team with great team OBP will give a guy, you will have numerous instances where he'll come through. You'll also have a lot of times when he'll fail, just like every ballplayer has lots of times when they fail.

 

ESPN showed a stat consisting of the most "walk-off" hits since 2003 this morning. Guess who the other leaders are? Pujols and Miggy. Wierd. Good hitters knock in runs when there is no where to put them. This is shocking.

[TB_11]

I don't know but I can think of at least 2 walk off home runs that won games this season and I know he's had a number of other ones. I don't know what it is about him, but I swear it's not coincidence or luck that he's got so many game winning hits - he seems to really bear down and come through in the clutch.

 

By the way, his game winning hit was an opposite field line drive single against the shift that every team seems to pull on him. The guy flat out knows how to work a count and drive the ball wherever it's being pitched.

 

Ortiz 2006

Overall .264 .374 .551

Runners on .298 .388 .583

RISP .279 .398 .523

Close and late .231 .286 .667

 

2003-2005

Overall .297 .383 .600

Runners on .309 .409 .575

RISP .328 .425 .555

Close and late .326 .408 .724

 

When you are a really good player, and you player for a really good team that is really popular and really emphasizes OBP, you are going to have a lot of chances to have meaningful hits. All it takes is a handful of walk offs or other heroics to give you the label (just as Jim Leyritz), and the more chances you get more likely you'll cash in on a few. As long as your failures don't stick out too much, and your team enjoys success, they will forget those and concentrate on the big ones. This explains why Jeter is excused for coming up short so often and considered clutch, even though his postseason numbers mirror his regular seasons and he has come up short repeatedly in recent postseasons.

 

Has anyone ever pulled his close and late numbers at home vs on the road? While I a completely on the side of the argument that believes there isn't anything out there right now that can show that certain hitters are consistently clutch, it just seems like a lot of his walkoff hits and HRs have been at Fenway.

 

 

 

Why did Minnesota put him on waivers? Did he just happen to blossom in Boston? I don't really remember him, but then again I rarely paid much attention to the Twins.

 

According to SI, Minnesota put him on waivers because they believed he would never figure out left-handers, and because he didn't fit in well with Minnesota's focus on situational hitting (e.g. hitting a ball to the right side of the infield with a guy on second and nobody out). Apparently the rest of the majors thought he wouldn't figure out left-handers either, because Minnesota only put him on waivers after not finding any team willing to trade for him.

[thedaymen]

According to this article, David Ortiz is the #34 clutch hitter in Red Sox history.

 

And who is the best clutch hitter of the last 30 years? I'll give you a hint, the Cubs threw him under the bus, and the next season he got a single to lead off a rally in the bottom of the 9th of game seven of the WS.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=betweenthenumbers/ortiz/060405

[wade]

I don't know but I can think of at least 2 walk off home runs that won games this season and I know he's had a number of other ones. I don't know what it is about him, but I swear it's not coincidence or luck that he's got so many game winning hits - he seems to really bear down and come through in the clutch.

 

By the way, his game winning hit was an opposite field line drive single against the shift that every team seems to pull on him. The guy flat out knows how to work a count and drive the ball wherever it's being pitched.

 

Ortiz 2006

Overall .264 .374 .551

Runners on .298 .388 .583

RISP .279 .398 .523

Close and late .231 .286 .667

 

2003-2005

Overall .297 .383 .600

Runners on .309 .409 .575

RISP .328 .425 .555

Close and late .326 .408 .724

 

When you are a really good player, and you player for a really good team that is really popular and really emphasizes OBP, you are going to have a lot of chances to have meaningful hits. All it takes is a handful of walk offs or other heroics to give you the label (just as Jim Leyritz), and the more chances you get more likely you'll cash in on a few. As long as your failures don't stick out too much, and your team enjoys success, they will forget those and concentrate on the big ones. This explains why Jeter is excused for coming up short so often and considered clutch, even though his postseason numbers mirror his regular seasons and he has come up short repeatedly in recent postseasons.

 

Has anyone ever pulled his close and late numbers at home vs on the road? While I a completely on the side of the argument that believes there isn't anything out there right now that can show that certain hitters are consistently clutch, it just seems like a lot of his walkoff hits and HRs have been at Fenway.

 

Well...he can't hit a walkoff HR or hit unless he's at home. :wink:

[wade]

I don't get your argument. "Here are some numbers showing that he's been better in the clutch. Then I will say that you probably just think he's better in the clutch because of the way memories/ESPN work"

 

I guess you just didn't look at the numbers. His "clutch" stats aren't routinely better than his regular stats. Sometimes they are a little better, sometimes a little worse, and in the case of this year, his close and late are much worse. He's the same hitter virtually all the time. And that's a very good hitter. So, when you give a very good hitter lots of opportunities to have a bit clutch hits, which is what a great team with great team OBP will give a guy, you will have numerous instances where he'll come through. You'll also have a lot of times when he'll fail, just like every ballplayer has lots of times when they fail.

 

ESPN showed a stat consisting of the most "walk-off" hits since 2003 this morning. Guess who the other leaders are? Pujols and Miggy. Wierd. Good hitters knock in runs when there is no where to put them. This is shocking.

 

But, as Abuck pointed out, Alex Gonzalez was on that list, no?

 

You're point is valid though, as he was the only poor hitter in the group.