what is the deal with prior???

[ronsanto10]

i am talking of the differences in the way the game is played by the pitchers prespective then as opposed to now, and since he played then, i think what he says does have some bearing....some sports writers feel the way the game is played now vs then has changed, can we at least agree on that??

 

 

Kevin Tapani didn't pitch 8 innings a game. Anything he says on the subject is null and void because he's in the same boat as all these other "modern pitchers".

 

 

 

 

Tapani is a part of the modern era. He is not a "then" era pitcher. And I don't care what some sportswriters think. A lot of old men think everybody was tougher in the old days. It's nothing but sentimental mythical BS. Today's pitchers approach the game just like yesterday's pitchers.

 

well, according to your logic, what you have to say about pitchers is null and void since you didn't pitch in the bigs....

like i said in a previous post, im just passing on what i heard on the radio, which is what i thought this board was for....

[obcubs]

I'm wishing that those who call Prior a wimp get a well deserved case of food poisoning themselves. I think that would be poetic justice.

Thats mature.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm wishing that those who call Prior a wimp get a well deserved case of food poisoning themselves. I think that would be poetic justice.

Thats mature.

 

Well, if food poisoning is no big deal, like has been implied, it shouldn't be much to worry about it anyway. What's a little stomach ache. It's not like I wished anything that a non-wimp couldn't handle.

[badger1679666666]

I'm wishing that those who call Prior a wimp get a well deserved case of food poisoning themselves. I think that would be poetic justice.

Thats mature.

 

Well, if food poisoning is no big deal, like has been implied, it shouldn't be much to worry about it anyway. What's a little stomach ache. It's not like I wished anything that a non-wimp couldn't handle.

 

I've had it, and I referred to him as soft, NOT b/c of the food poisoning, but just events that happened in general. Then I read goony's point and changed my mind.

[obcubs]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

[goonys evil twin]

i am talking of the differences in the way the game is played by the pitchers prespective then as opposed to now, and since he played then, i think what he says does have some bearing....some sports writers feel the way the game is played now vs then has changed, can we at least agree on that??

 

 

Kevin Tapani didn't pitch 8 innings a game. Anything he says on the subject is null and void because he's in the same boat as all these other "modern pitchers".

 

 

 

 

Tapani is a part of the modern era. He is not a "then" era pitcher. And I don't care what some sportswriters think. A lot of old men think everybody was tougher in the old days. It's nothing but sentimental mythical BS. Today's pitchers approach the game just like yesterday's pitchers.

 

well, according to your logic, what you have to say about pitchers is null and void since you didn't pitch in the bigs....

like i said in a previous post, im just passing on what i heard on the radio, which is what i thought this board was for....

 

The difference is I'm not claiming that I threw 200 pitchers per start and went 8 innings every game. Tapani, according to you, is, and that makes him a blatant liar, or a senile old man with a completely unrealistic view about the good ole days.

[ronsanto10]

i am talking of the differences in the way the game is played by the pitchers prespective then as opposed to now, and since he played then, i think what he says does have some bearing....some sports writers feel the way the game is played now vs then has changed, can we at least agree on that??

 

 

Kevin Tapani didn't pitch 8 innings a game. Anything he says on the subject is null and void because he's in the same boat as all these other "modern pitchers".

 

 

 

 

Tapani is a part of the modern era. He is not a "then" era pitcher. And I don't care what some sportswriters think. A lot of old men think everybody was tougher in the old days. It's nothing but sentimental mythical BS. Today's pitchers approach the game just like yesterday's pitchers.

 

well, according to your logic, what you have to say about pitchers is null and void since you didn't pitch in the bigs....

like i said in a previous post, im just passing on what i heard on the radio, which is what i thought this board was for....

 

The difference is I'm not claiming that I threw 200 pitchers per start and went 8 innings every game. Tapani, according to you, is, and that makes him a blatant liar, or a senile old man with a completely unrealistic view about the good ole days.

im just passing on some info i heard on the radio, sorry if it upset you....

over the history of baseball, the way the game is played has changed

[Andy]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

Z (hopefully)

[goonys evil twin]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

 

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

[TruffleShuffle]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

 

Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens

[obcubs]

http://www.rivalfish.com/rivalroom/2006/05/mark-prior-tender-cha-cha.html

 

One man's take, its better to laugh than cry, i guess.

 

(Profanity Warning)

[obcubs]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

 

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

Thats called cherry-picking, look at his innings pitched.

[srbin84]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

 

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

 

What about Sabathia?

[obcubs]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

 

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

Buerhle understands the importance of throwing strikes, low pitch count counts in order to get through games. Prior/Wood/Z could learn from him

Edited May 5, 2006 by obcubs

[TruffleShuffle]

http://www.rivalfish.com/rivalroom/2006/05/mark-prior-tender-cha-cha.html

 

One man's take, its better to laugh than cry, i guess.

 

Yeah, that guy's take is stupid. I'm sure Prior really wants to be out of the lineup all the time. If he's continued to pitch like he did in 2003 - outstanding and durable - he'd have been in line for one of the largest free agent contracts for a pitcher in history. Instead, he hasn't pitched all that great the last two years, and he hasn't been durable at all. I really doubt that Prior wants to be costing himself $100 million like he's doing.

[David]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

 

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

Thats called cherry-picking, look at his innings pitched.

 

Are you kidding me?

 

In terms of abuse, pitch counts mean a lot more than innings pitched.

[srbin84]

Maybe this is the time to offer Prior a 10 year 50 million dollar deal.

[obcubs]

http://www.rivalfish.com/rivalroom/2006/05/mark-prior-tender-cha-cha.html

 

One man's take, its better to laugh than cry, i guess.

 

Yeah, that guy's take is stupid. I'm sure Prior really wants to be out of the lineup all the time. If he's continued to pitch like he did in 2003 - outstanding and durable - he'd have been in line for one of the largest free agent contracts for a pitcher in history. Instead, he hasn't pitched all that great the last two years, and he hasn't been durable at all. I really doubt that Prior wants to be costing himself $100 million like he's doing.

I suggest a re-read his point isn't that Prior wants to be that way, the point is he was raised to be that way. According to 'rivalfish' that is.

[obcubs]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

 

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

Thats called cherry-picking, look at his innings pitched.

 

Are you kidding me?

 

In terms of abuse, pitch counts mean a lot more than innings pitched.

Look up total pitch counts over the last few years for Buerhle/Prior, who has thrown more?

Edited May 5, 2006 by obcubs

[Jon]

Maybe if we were so worried about Prior's health we shouldn't have run his pitch counts into the 120-130's in riding him to a playoff appearance in 2003.

 

I said then that I worried that it could turn Prior into another Juan Guzman. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Prior has a low tolerence for pain or anything like that. I don't think Prior owes us because we paid him. I think the Cubs were careless with him in 2003 because they saw him as one of the only ways that mediocre team was going to make the playoffs. They rode him hard down the stretch and those pitches and abuse have now taken their toll.

 

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover.

 

Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences.

Mark Buerhle

 

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

I couldn't find Buerhle's 2001 pitch total, but in 2002, his first full season as a starter, he averaged 103 pitches a start. Prior averaged 107 pitches per start in 2002 and over 113 pitches per start in 2003, his first full season as a starter.

 

A definite difference.

[Jon]

What about Sabathia?

I can't find pitch totals from 2001 (his first full season, too), but in 2002, he averaged 102.4 pitches per start. In 2003, Sabathia averaged 104.9 pitches per start. In 2005, it was 101.7 pitches per start.

 

As I posted earlier, Prior averaged 113+ pitches in his first full season.

[jjgman21]

there are pitchers who have been abused early in their careers who haven't suffered the same type of injury woes...Oswalt and Pedro were pretty much abused early on, and both of them are small guys with violent deliveries. so were Mussina and Schilling and Clemens.

 

but one has to wonder what the hell is going on with pitchers these days. Steve Trachsel and Jon Leiber are 29th and 30th on the active wins list while nearly all of the young phenoms from the past decade and a half, particularly the power pitchers, haven't had any sustained success.

[goonys evil twin]

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

Thats called cherry-picking, look at his innings pitched.

 

Are you kidding me?

 

In terms of abuse, pitch counts mean a lot more than innings pitched.

Look up total pitch counts over the last few years for Buerhle/Prior, who has thrown more?

 

That's not cherry picking, that's exactly the point. Prior was abused as a young pitcher by being forced to stay in for extremely high pitch counts. He was left in a game to pitch after getting injured. He was kept in to pitch 130+ pitches multiple times, a pitch count far beyond what most pitchers are limited to. He averaged 120+ pitches per start the end the season after he injured his shoulder. He threw an excessive amount of pitches in the playoffs, even after his team had a game rapped up. There was no letting up on the gas pedal. There were no string of games where they pulled him after 95 pitches, like Buerhle had. The fact that Buerhle is more efficient with his pitches is completely irrelevent. It's the manager and pitching coach's responsibility to protect a young arm, regardless of whether or not he can finish 7 under 100 pitches or can't get thru 5 without throwing 110. If you want to talk about Prior's need to be more efficient, that's a different topic. And it's also a topic that has to involve coaches' responsibilities. Whether a pitcher is extended beyond normal usage patterns for young pitchers due to nibbling or not, when he gets to a certain point you have to pull him.

 

Game after game in 2003 when Wood and Prior were racking up 115, 120, 130, 140 pitch counts, people were kicking and screaming for them to be pulled early. Some laughed at such supposed "kid glove" treatment. All I know is 2 years later and the guys can't get through a couple months without getting hurt and/or losing effectiveness.

 

Anybody who feels justified in calling Prior a wimp, or a wuss, or weak, or frail, or just plain not tough enough, has to go back and look at how he was used, and how many pitches he was forced to throw game after game. Take a second to look at that and then ask yourself if maybe, just maybe, that treatment played a roll in later injuries. Pitchers get hurt from pitching, and they get hurt from pitching tired. Often times these injuries accumulate over time. It's not really a snap and you're done sort of thing.

 

Pitcher abuse points are not a perfect predictor of injury. But when somebody leads the league in those and are near the top for quite a while, and then suffer some injuries, you'd have to be purposefully ignoring those facts if you claim that abuse couldn't have played a part in the injuries.

[obcubs]

Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106.

 

In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130.

 

Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion.

Thats called cherry-picking, look at his innings pitched.

 

Are you kidding me?

 

In terms of abuse, pitch counts mean a lot more than innings pitched.

Look up total pitch counts over the last few years for Buerhle/Prior, who has thrown more?

 

That's not cherry picking, that's exactly the point. Prior was abused as a young pitcher by being forced to stay in for extremely high pitch counts. He was left in a game to pitch after getting injured. He was kept in to pitch 130+ pitches multiple times, a pitch count far beyond what most pitchers are limited to. He averaged 120+ pitches per start the end the season after he injured his shoulder. He threw an excessive amount of pitches in the playoffs, even after his team had a game rapped up. There was no letting up on the gas pedal. There were no string of games where they pulled him after 95 pitches, like Buerhle had. The fact that Buerhle is more efficient with his pitches is completely irrelevent. It's the manager and pitching coach's responsibility to protect a young arm, regardless of whether or not he can finish 7 under 100 pitches or can't get thru 5 without throwing 110. If you want to talk about Prior's need to be more efficient, that's a different topic. And it's also a topic that has to involve coaches' responsibilities. Whether a pitcher is extended beyond normal usage patterns for young pitchers due to nibbling or not, when he gets to a certain point you have to pull him.

 

Game after game in 2003 when Wood and Prior were racking up 115, 120, 130, 140 pitch counts, people were kicking and screaming for them to be pulled early. Some laughed at such supposed "kid glove" treatment. All I know is 2 years later and the guys can't get through a couple months without getting hurt and/or losing effectiveness.

 

Anybody who feels justified in calling Prior a wimp, or a wuss, or weak, or frail, or just plain not tough enough, has to go back and look at how he was used, and how many pitches he was forced to throw game after game. Take a second to look at that and then ask yourself if maybe, just maybe, that treatment played a roll in later injuries. Pitchers get hurt from pitching, and they get hurt from pitching tired. Often times these injuries accumulate over time. It's not really a snap and you're done sort of thing.

 

Pitcher abuse points are not a perfect predictor of injury. But when somebody leads the league in those and are near the top for quite a while, and then suffer some injuries, you'd have to be purposefully ignoring those facts if you claim that abuse couldn't have played a part in the injuries.

But that doesnt answer the question who has thrown more pitches over the last couple of years Buerhle or Prior? I am guessing and I admit it is just a guess that Buerhle has. So another question would be: What is worse for pitchers higher pitch counts per game, or high pitch totals for the year?

[srbin84]

What are the numbers on Willis? I know I remember him pitching pretty much every other game in the 03 playoffs.