Delmon Young's in Big Trouble...

[Outshined_One]

The game was in Pawtucket. I'm going to go digging for some criminal codes...

[Chris]

Delmon made a mistake in the heat of the moment, but the backlash is beyond extreme at this point.

 

Unfortunately, Delmon has had a series of moments in his young career, from serving a suspension for bumping an umpire to flinging a bat in the air after getting hit by a pitch. I never met him, so I cannot condemn his character. However, he has a reputation of a guy with the "Major League attitude". One would hope that a professional journalist wouldn't use old grudges on a player, but we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I really don't think whether he was wearing a chest protector and/or flinched takes away from what Delmon did.

 

The point about the umpire's reaction is perspective. Sure he flipped the bat at him pretty hard, but the umpire turned into it and barely had any reaction to it.

 

I'm not calling either way in regards to what will/should happen to him. However, things shouldn't be tolerated on a baseball field that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else in society.

 

I don't think anyone is saying Young's actions should be tolerated, but people are making a lot of inferences about the situation that are making it out to be much worse than it is. Refer back to my previous comment about the Alomar and Everett situations.

 

Delmon made a mistake in the heat of the moment, but the backlash is beyond extreme at this point.

 

Come on. Neither Everett's or Alomar's offenses are comparable. Young walked away from the ump, the chose to turn around and throw (not flip) his bat at the ump. When he walked away, he had enough time to consider what he wanted to do. I don't think Everett or Alomar gave any conscious thought to what they did more than 1/2 second before they did it.

 

Young walked away, turned around and threw his bat (which is far more dangerous than a goober or slight headbutt) at the ump, likely after considering what he was going to do. Your defense of him is as irrational as any of the condemnations in this thread.

 

They certainly are comparable. Your inference that the couple of steps he took before he chucked the bat constitute some sort of internal turmoil or premeditation is more irrational than anything I've said, and I've said several times what he did was wrong and he deserves a suspension between 15 and 30 games.

Edited April 28, 2006 by Transmogrified Tiger

[OleMissCub]

The game was in Pawtucket. I'm going to go digging for some criminal codes...

 

Me too.

 

And Tiger....it doesn't matter, for the purposes of the incident, it could still be considered a deadly weapon.

[treebird]

http://espn.go.com/minorlbb/news/2001/0704/1222517.html

 

assault with a deadly weapon (leg)

 

it doesnt matter that the catcher was wearing a mask since it doesn't matter that the umpire was wearing a chest guard

 

SIX GAME SUSPENSION!!!!!

 

the young thing is obviously much worse, but is it the hundreds of times worse that it would have to be to warrant a lifetime ban?

[OleMissCub]

Game was played in Rhode Island...here is their statute:

 

R.I. Gen. Laws § 11-5-2 (2006)

 

§ 11-5-2. Felony assault

 

 

(a) Every person who shall make an assault or battery, or both, with a dangerous weapon, or with acid or other dangerous substance, or by fire, or an assault or battery which results in serious bodily injury, shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than twenty (20) years.

[treebird]

The game was in Pawtucket. I'm going to go digging for some criminal codes...

 

Me too.

 

And Tiger....it doesn't matter, for the purposes of the incident, it could still be considered a deadly weapon.

 

as far as charging him with the crime, right?

[OleMissCub]

http://espn.go.com/minorlbb/news/2001/0704/1222517.html

 

assault with a deadly weapon (leg)

 

it doesnt matter that the catcher was wearing a mask since it doesn't matter that the umpire was wearing a chest guard

 

SIX GAME SUSPENSION!!!!!

 

the young thing is obviously much worse, but is it the hundreds of times worse that it would have to be to warrant a lifetime ban?

 

I doubt the catcher CHARGED him with anything. This whole hypothetical legal discussion is regarding what he COULD be charged with should this replacement ump seek a legal redress.

[treebird]

http://espn.go.com/minorlbb/news/2001/0704/1222517.html

 

assault with a deadly weapon (leg)

 

it doesnt matter that the catcher was wearing a mask since it doesn't matter that the umpire was wearing a chest guard

 

SIX GAME SUSPENSION!!!!!

 

the young thing is obviously much worse, but is it the hundreds of times worse that it would have to be to warrant a lifetime ban?

 

I doubt the catcher CHARGED him with anything. This whole hypothetical legal discussion is regarding what he COULD be charged with should this replacement ump seek a legal redress.

 

well the legal stuff isnt going to happen, so i was trying to talk about why it's silly to say he should be suspended forever.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

It seems like you're going to a lot of effort to defend a hypothetical and supposedly unlikely charge. Setting aside what constitutes battery, do you think it's reasonable for the umpire to sue or press charges?

[OleMissCub]

This seems most likely:

R.I. Gen. Laws § 11-5-2.2 (2006)

 

§ 11-5-2.2. Battery -- Criminal negligence

 

 

(a) When serious bodily injury, as defined in § 11-5-2, of any person, occurs as a proximate result of criminal negligence, the person committing the criminal negligence shall be guilty of battery and shall be deemed to have committed a felony and shall be imprisoned not exceeding ten (10) years or fined not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($ 10,000), or both.

 

(b) For the purposes of this section: (i) "Criminal negligence" shall mean: Conduct which is such a departure from what would be that of an ordinary prudent or careful person in the same circumstance as to be incompatible with a proper regard for human life or an indifference to consequences. Criminal negligence is negligence that is aggravated, culpable or gross; (ii) "Person" shall mean an individual or any business entity recognized by the laws of the state of Rhode Island including, but not limited to, corporations, limited liability corporations, partnerships or limited liability partnerships.

[Outshined_One]

This seems most likely:

R.I. Gen. Laws § 11-5-2.2 (2006)

 

§ 11-5-2.2. Battery -- Criminal negligence

 

 

(a) When serious bodily injury, as defined in § 11-5-2, of any person, occurs as a proximate result of criminal negligence, the person committing the criminal negligence shall be guilty of battery and shall be deemed to have committed a felony and shall be imprisoned not exceeding ten (10) years or fined not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($ 10,000), or both.

 

(b) For the purposes of this section: (i) "Criminal negligence" shall mean: Conduct which is such a departure from what would be that of an ordinary prudent or careful person in the same circumstance as to be incompatible with a proper regard for human life or an indifference to consequences. Criminal negligence is negligence that is aggravated, culpable or gross; (ii) "Person" shall mean an individual or any business entity recognized by the laws of the state of Rhode Island including, but not limited to, corporations, limited liability corporations, partnerships or limited liability partnerships.

 

That requires serious bodily injury. Unless the ump had his arm broken or something, I don't think he'll get charged with it.

 

Also, Tree, I am not arguing for a lifetime ban. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm expecting between 50-100 games in terms of a suspension, especially considering the media is picking up on it and also considering Young won't have the MLBPA protecting him.

[OleMissCub]

It seems like you're going to a lot of effort to defend a hypothetical and supposedly unlikely charge. Setting aside what constitutes battery, do you think it's reasonable for the umpire to sue or press charges?

 

Well, it doesn't look like he was hurt. But it just depends on whether he is pissed off enough.

[Outshined_One]

It seems like you're going to a lot of effort to defend a hypothetical and supposedly unlikely charge. Setting aside what constitutes battery, do you think it's reasonable for the umpire to sue or press charges?

 

Well, it doesn't look like he was hurt. But it just depends on whether he is pissed off enough.

 

Or greedy enough.

 

Also, quick show of hands. For those of you who know the minor league systems around baseball, how many of you were surprised that Delmon Young did this and not Elijah Dukes?

 

*Raises hand*

[OleMissCub]

 

That requires serious bodily injury. Unless the ump had his arm broken or something, I don't think he'll get charged with it.

.

 

Looks like this fits...

 

§ 11-5-3. Simple assault or battery

 

 

(a) Except as otherwise provided in § 11-5-2, every person who shall make an assault or battery or both shall be imprisoned not exceeding one year or fined not exceeding one thousand dollars ($ 1,000), or both.

 

assault is an unlawful attempt or offer, with force or violence, to do a corporal hurt to another, whether from malice or wantonness

[XZero771679666304]

I really don't think whether he was wearing a chest protector and/or flinched takes away from what Delmon did.

 

The point about the umpire's reaction is perspective. Sure he flipped the bat at him pretty hard, but the umpire turned into it and barely had any reaction to it.

 

I'm not calling either way in regards to what will/should happen to him. However, things shouldn't be tolerated on a baseball field that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else in society.

 

I don't think anyone is saying Young's actions should be tolerated, but people are making a lot of inferences about the situation that are making it out to be much worse than it is. Refer back to my previous comment about the Alomar and Everett situations.

 

Delmon made a mistake in the heat of the moment, but the backlash is beyond extreme at this point.

 

Come on. Neither Everett's or Alomar's offenses are comparable. Young walked away from the ump, the chose to turn around and throw (not flip) his bat at the ump. When he walked away, he had enough time to consider what he wanted to do. I don't think Everett or Alomar gave any conscious thought to what they did more than 1/2 second before they did it.

 

Young walked away, turned around and threw his bat (which is far more dangerous than a goober or slight headbutt) at the ump, likely after considering what he was going to do. Your defense of him is as irrational as any of the condemnations in this thread.

 

They certainly are comparable. Your inference that the couple of steps he took before he chucked the bat constitute some sort of internal turmoil or premeditation are more irrational than anything I've said, and I've said several times what he did was wrong and he deserves a suspension between 15 and 30 games.

 

Couple of steps? He totally left the picture, at least 10-15 feet away, and the bat did not re-enter the frame for another second or two. You are showing a gift for understatement in this thread. It was not like Everett or Alomar, who both were still nose to nose with the ump when what they did occurred, and neither involved a weapon.

 

Not comparable.

 

And a thrown bat is not that much less dangerous than a swung bat, at least compared to a fired gun vs. thrown gun. If the ump had been hit in the head or face, he could have been badly hurt.

 

A 15 to 30 game suspension would be egregiously short, and I would be absolutely shocked if it is any shorter than 60 games when it comes down. Like I said, even the guys on BBTN were talking season long, so it's not just us.

[Outshined_One]

Correct, but look back at the definition of "serious bodily injury".

 

R.I. Gen. Laws § 11-5-2.2 (2006)

 

§ 11-5-2.2. Battery -- Criminal negligence

 

 

(a) When serious bodily injury, as defined in § 11-5-2, of any person, occurs as a proximate result of criminal negligence, the person committing the criminal negligence shall be guilty of battery and shall be deemed to have committed a felony and shall be imprisoned not exceeding ten (10) years or fined not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($ 10,000), or both.

 

(b) For the purposes of this section: (i) "Criminal negligence" shall mean: Conduct which is such a departure from what would be that of an ordinary prudent or careful person in the same circumstance as to be incompatible with a proper regard for human life or an indifference to consequences. Criminal negligence is negligence that is aggravated, culpable or gross; (ii) "Person" shall mean an individual or any business entity recognized by the laws of the state of Rhode Island including, but not limited to, corporations, limited liability corporations, partnerships or limited liability partnerships.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Couple of steps? He totally left the picture, at least 10-15 feet away, and the bat did not re-enter the frame for another second or two. You are showing a gift for understatement in this thread. It was not like Everett or Alomar, who both were still nose to nose with the ump when what they did occurred, and neither involved a weapon.

 

Not comparable.

 

And a thrown bat is not that much less dangerous than a swung bat, at least compared to a fired gun vs. thrown gun. If the ump had been hit in the head or face, he could have been badly hurt.

 

A 15 to 30 game suspension would be egregiously short, and I would be absolutely shocked if it is any shorter than 60 games when it comes down. Like I said, even the guys on BBTN were talking season long, so it's not just us.

 

I need to go to sleep, but can someone explain how this is worse than what Alcantra did? Or a better question, how is it "at least 10 times" worse than what Alcantra did?

[XZero771679666304]

Couple of steps? He totally left the picture, at least 10-15 feet away, and the bat did not re-enter the frame for another second or two. You are showing a gift for understatement in this thread. It was not like Everett or Alomar, who both were still nose to nose with the ump when what they did occurred, and neither involved a weapon.

 

Not comparable.

 

And a thrown bat is not that much less dangerous than a swung bat, at least compared to a fired gun vs. thrown gun. If the ump had been hit in the head or face, he could have been badly hurt.

 

A 15 to 30 game suspension would be egregiously short, and I would be absolutely shocked if it is any shorter than 60 games when it comes down. Like I said, even the guys on BBTN were talking season long, so it's not just us.

 

I need to go to sleep, but can someone explain how this is worse than what Alcantra did? Or a better question, how is it "at least 10 times" worse than what Alcantra did?

 

 

 

And a thrown bat is not that much less dangerous than a swung bat, at least compared to a fired gun vs. thrown gun. If the ump had been hit in the head or face, he could have been badly hurt.

[OleMissCub]

Well, like i said, this seems to fit more...it could classified as more of an attempt I guess.

 

§ 11-5-3. Simple assault or battery

 

(a) Except as otherwise provided in § 11-5-2, every person who shall make an assault or battery or both shall be imprisoned not exceeding one year or fined not exceeding one thousand dollars ($ 1,000), or both.

 

assault is an unlawful attempt or offer, with force or violence, to do a corporal hurt to another, whether from malice or wantonness

[Outshined_One]

I need to go to sleep, but can someone explain how this is worse than what Alcantra did? Or a better question, how is it "at least 10 times" worse than what Alcantra did?

 

If you were to remove the umpire thing from the equation, I'd say this incident is still worse than the Alcantra thing. The catcher was wearing protective gear which covered his chest and face. The umpire removed his face mask in order to toss Young, thereby allowing for a greater risk for potential face/head injuries. A kick to the face versus a bat to the face moving at a decent clip could cause comparable injuries, however.

 

That said, with the umpire thing in the equation, this becomes a much bigger issue. All sports vociferously protect their officials. Pete Rose was suspended for 30 days because he got into a shoving match with an umpire, which I think is a better indicator of the way baseball is going to go with this issue than the Alomar or Everett incidents.

[XZero771679666304]

Couple of steps? He totally left the picture, at least 10-15 feet away, and the bat did not re-enter the frame for another second or two. You are showing a gift for understatement in this thread. It was not like Everett or Alomar, who both were still nose to nose with the ump when what they did occurred, and neither involved a weapon.

 

Not comparable.

 

And a thrown bat is not that much less dangerous than a swung bat, at least compared to a fired gun vs. thrown gun. If the ump had been hit in the head or face, he could have been badly hurt.

 

A 15 to 30 game suspension would be egregiously short, and I would be absolutely shocked if it is any shorter than 60 games when it comes down. Like I said, even the guys on BBTN were talking season long, so it's not just us.

 

I need to go to sleep, but can someone explain how this is worse than what Alcantra did? Or a better question, how is it "at least 10 times" worse than what Alcantra did?

 

I don't know, what Alcantra did was pretty bad. Certainly worthy of more than a 6 game suspension. But I think you have to take some things into account:

 

1.Offenses against umps are always going to be dealt with more harshly than offenses against other players. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is what it is.

 

2.Alcantra had been beaned, so there was bad blood aready brewing before the incident. All the ump did was make a call.

 

3. Young clearly had time to consider what he was doing. He was probably as close to the dugout as the ump when he decided to throw the bat. When you ar ein a heated argument, it is much easier to let it end when you separate yourself fom the person you are angry with. Everett, Alomar and even Alcantra were still in the kitchen, so to speak, and at least Carl and Roberto restrained themselves better than Delmon did.

 

The ump had taken his mask off, and was writing on his card when the bat hit him. Clearly, there was no immediate confrontation going on, but Young still threw his bat.

 

 

I don't propose a lifetime ban, though the fact that it was an option on an ESPN poll speaks to the notion that it isn't too far fetched. I think a lifetime ban would be far to severe. (the clear majority in that poll favors a season long ban, BTW) But to insinuate that what Delmon did should be punished similarly to someone who spits on an ump is preposterous, IMO.

[Outshined_One]

Just as a point of fact, did Young turn around and throw the bat at the ump, or did he fling it behind his back or side?

[XZero771679666304]

Just as a point of fact, did Young turn around and throw the bat at the ump, or did he fling it behind his back or side?

 

I didn't see, as he was out of the picture. Based on the trajectory, I am thinking he had to have turned around and flung it overhand. It was vertical and going end over end, on a straight trajectory.

 

The bat would not travel like that if it was thrown from the side, and I doubt it would have been so accurate from a distance had it been behind his back.

 

EDIT: I was wrong. He threw it underhand.

Edited April 28, 2006 by XZero77

[abuck1220]

geez...i used to come to nsbb as a break from studying.

 

 

also, i'm very annoyed by the fact that every story about this makes a point to note that minor league umps are on strike and they're using replacement umps...almost as if the fact that the call may have sucked b/c the ump was a replacement justifies young's actions. and good to see that the umpire union isn't afraid to use this as some leverage for their cause. classy.