Will Cub fans ever be happy?

[bring stone back]

 

Pierre isn't fast and doesn't bring energy to the team? If I recall at the beginning of the year a player made the analogy of bringing Pierre is like Podsednik to the Sox...he brings energy and excitement to the top of the lineup and the rest of the lineup can't help but feed off of that.

 

 

that doesn't even make sense. so the 6th hitter in the lineup is going to 'feed off' the 'excitement' pierre brought to the game two innings prior when he grounded out to second? how exactly does this feeding process work?

 

Guys who play for the Cubs seem to disagree with you. Do you think Podsednik brought anything to the Sox last year?

[soccer10k]

 

I do....Walker, Lee and Ramirez are better and have not had a true leadoff man (as a group) since they've been here. They'll feed off him and Pierre will play well and put up better numbers because of their success.

 

I guess I can't quite make the connection.

 

If you go from having no leadoff hitter one year (CPatt, Neifi, whoever else we put there) to even an average leadoff hitter (Pierre) it's going to help you a lot. All of a sudden Walker is batting with a runner on more often so DLee and Ramirez will also. It's unfortunate that Lee got hurt because I had no doubt that his RBI total would have increased by at least 10 this year even if his HR's and BA went down a bit. He would have benefitted from having Pierre leading off.

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Good old Corey Patterson had a .254 OBP last year. And considering he hit 13 HR's, that means he was onbase even less for Lee and Ramirez when he hit leadoff.

[bring stone back]

 

I do....Walker, Lee and Ramirez are better and have not had a true leadoff man (as a group) since they've been here. They'll feed off him and Pierre will play well and put up better numbers because of their success.

 

I guess I can't quite make the connection.

 

If you go from having no leadoff hitter one year (CPatt, Neifi, whoever else we put there) to even an average leadoff hitter (Pierre) it's going to help you a lot. All of a sudden Walker is batting with a runner on more often so DLee and Ramirez will also. It's unfortunate that Lee got hurt because I had no doubt that his RBI total would have increased by at least 10 this year even if his HR's and BA went down a bit. He would have benefitted from having Pierre leading off.

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

[soccer10k]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

Who all batted leadoff and for how many at bats? If you got your stats from the website, what is the link. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious. I tried to look it up on BP but I couldn't find it.

Edited April 26, 2006 by soccer10k

[Blueheart05]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

That's not a fair comparison after so few games.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Blueheart05

[David]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

Nice.

[David]

 

Pierre isn't fast and doesn't bring energy to the team? If I recall at the beginning of the year a player made the analogy of bringing Pierre is like Podsednik to the Sox...he brings energy and excitement to the top of the lineup and the rest of the lineup can't help but feed off of that.

 

 

that doesn't even make sense. so the 6th hitter in the lineup is going to 'feed off' the 'excitement' pierre brought to the game two innings prior when he grounded out to second? how exactly does this feeding process work?

 

Guys who play for the Cubs seem to disagree with you. Do you think Podsednik brought anything to the Sox last year?

 

No. The Sox offense was worse in 05 than 04. That was a bad trade.

 

Now, the starting rotation sure brought a lot to the Sox last year.

[beersoakedivy]

I come to the board, I don't post often, I try not to. However I do read the board everyday. The Cubs now in the early season are 12 - 7. They have now 2 Rookie starting pitchers in the rotation. They have 2 Rookies playing everyday. They have there numbers 1 and 3 starers on the DL to go along with there best hitter.

 

Im I reading correctly, 12W 7L with all the above and people are still talking about a few of the Cubs players that are in early season slumps? They go to the ballpark to boo them players and still can not say one positive thing about them when they do something good.

I read last night about someone not wanting to Jones to swing at the first pitch, yet he hit a HR ont he first pitch to put the game away for us!

I read today about Pierre not hitting the ball out of the infield, yet he hit a double to the OF last night when we really need a runner on!

 

I read Baker is a bad manager and hurts the team more then he helps it. However I see nothing on the good moves he has made this season, but every time he pinch hits Perez, a new thread on the board is started. If anything Baker has risen the expectations of Cub fans and I don't think anyone can denny that! Prior to Baker coming to the Cubs, I don't recall being at, hearing on TV or radio a Cubs game were our own players were booed, why is that?

 

We won a game tonight, yet I'm not sure I will read once about the sac bunt by Jones. The move Baker made to call it.

How Baker took Marshall out at just the right time with 96 pitches thrown, his high for the season. How Baker has been very good about getting Marshall out of the game when his pitch count gets near 80 or 90 pitches.

 

I'm going on, this is not about Baker, it is not about Perez, Jones, Pierre, Rameriz (who by the way has not been hitting the cover off the ball, yet I have not heard one person boo him).

 

This is about why? What will it take for you to be happy? You pay your money, I understand that, and have the right to voice our opinion! Is a classic ansewr, you also have the right not to be a FAN (An ardent devotee; an enthusiast.) If you are so unhappy with this 12 - 7 team, why do you pay your money? If you are so unhappy with a few players on the team, why go?

 

The treatment of the fans to our own players, I had never seen prior to the last few years! NEVER! Why is it? I really don't understand it..

 

I have never seen so many Cub fans that want to cut up a wonderful win with, Baker should have, Jones needs to stop, or something else negative. I see a thread on "Bad Baker Moves", yet I can not find one for good moves! Have we really as Cub fans become so negative? Please don't tell me well it is has been 98 years since our last WS! That is a great talking point if you have been around for all 98 of them years! Kids born in the 1980's say it has been 98 years, news flash - you have been around for 26 of them and probably have been following the Cubs for 1/2 of them years!

 

All I'm asking is when did it become the "thing to do" to boo our own players? I remember hearing boo's for other teams, but our own team? How can you say in a straight face, I'm a Cubs fan, I support the Cubs and turn around at the game and boo? Is that a new form of support I don't know about?

 

You sum up all my feelings in that post. Thank you for saving me 30 minutes in typing. I agree with you 100%

[bring stone back]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

So you're comparing production from 19 games this year to 162 games last year?

 

Chris Shelton must be one of the the best homerun hitters ever. Look out Ruth and Aaron.

[rocket]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

So you're comparing production from 19 games this year to 162 games last year?

 

Chris Shelton must be one of the the best homerun hitters ever. Look out Ruth and Aaron.

 

TT isn't the one who said that Pierre's current OBP over 162 games means a lot more plate appearances with runners on than last season.

[badger1679666666]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

NM i misread the argument. Sorry TT.

Edited April 26, 2006 by badger

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

Who all batted leadoff and for how many at bats? If you got your stats from the website, what is the link. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious. I tried to look it up on BP but I couldn't find it.

 

ESPN

 

689 ABs (Breakdown)

 

Hairston 306

Patterson 128

Neifi 114

Lawton 75

Macias 35

Murton 10

Theriot 9

Gerut 4

Walker, Grieve 2

Burntiz, Nomar, Wilson, Dubois 1

[abuck1220]

 

Pierre isn't fast and doesn't bring energy to the team? If I recall at the beginning of the year a player made the analogy of bringing Pierre is like Podsednik to the Sox...he brings energy and excitement to the top of the lineup and the rest of the lineup can't help but feed off of that.

 

 

that doesn't even make sense. so the 6th hitter in the lineup is going to 'feed off' the 'excitement' pierre brought to the game two innings prior when he grounded out to second? how exactly does this feeding process work?

 

Guys who play for the Cubs seem to disagree with you.

 

hope that this isn't like telling a kid that santa doesn't exist, but sometimes baseball players spout off meaningless, empty cliches that are completely devoid of any substance...much like saying that he 'feeds' off a crappy leadoff hitter. if anybody's feeding off juan's sub-.290 OBP then they had to have been feeding off whoever was hitting leadoff last year b/c they were putting up similar numbers.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

Wait, aren't you the one who constantly cites sample size? Talk about spinning stats for yourself.

 

What in the world are you talking about? Have you read the thread? BSB said that Pierre at his current rate of production would get on base more than 2005's leadoff hitters. It's in the quotes directly above. He was wrong, so I pointed that out.

[badger1679666666]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

Wait, aren't you the one who constantly cites sample size? Talk about spinning stats for yourself.

 

What in the world are you talking about? Have you read the thread? BSB said that Pierre at his current rate of production would get on base more than 2005's leadoff hitters. It's in the quotes directly above. He was wrong, so I pointed that out.

 

I didn't even read this post, but I reread mine, and I realized you were arguing something different. I erased my post.

[atcfootball]

I have read, dont' bitch about the bitching....... I asked a question about something I dont like, but I'm learning to accept from the fans of the team I love to root for.

 

I have read in this thread,,,, Cubs fans are sick and have higher expectations..... First off, if the players on the field suck so bad (jones, pierre and so on) suck so bad, why do you have higher expectations?

In addition I read we will end the season around .500,,, then why are the exptations again so high?

 

I have read, we know what we were getting with Jones? Uhm, okay so if he is performing the way "we know" we are going to get, why boo him? It seems like booing Hendry would be a better way to display your lack of satisfaction? This is like saying we know we are going to get 20HR, 300AVG and 100RBI's from Murton and then booing him during the season because he is getting them numbers, it don't add up! Pierre had a down year last year and based on 19 games, some Cub fans assume that will continue into this year! Even in a down year, Pierre 50SB, 100R a year is better then anything we have had leading off since EY in his first few years.

 

Basically I'm reading,, it is okay to boo a player because he is performing as expected,,, Pierre, Jones and so on.... However in ARams case it is not okay to boo him because he is performing (at this time) below expectations becaues he has done it in the past?

 

Basically I'm reading. Expectations are high for this team, but everything I read in the thread says it is a 500 team with little chance of going anywere! Why if expectations are so high, why is this a 500 team?

[soccer10k]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

Who all batted leadoff and for how many at bats? If you got your stats from the website, what is the link. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious. I tried to look it up on BP but I couldn't find it.

 

ESPN

 

689 ABs (Breakdown)

 

Hairston 306

Patterson 128

Neifi 114

Lawton 75

Macias 35

Murton 10

Theriot 9

Gerut 4

Walker, Grieve 2

Burntiz, Nomar, Wilson, Dubois 1

 

Thank you.

[Mark_R]

The boos are because people are tired of seeing crappy players on a Cubs team that needs to continously disassociate themselves with said crappy players, and yet the Cubs keep welcoming in the crappy like they are the homeless.

 

If Neifi is playing tomorrow, it'll be boo central so Jock doesn't feel left out.

[badger1679666666]

The boos are because people are tired of seeing crappy players on a Cubs team that needs to continously disassociate themselves with said crappy players, and yet the Cubs keep welcoming in the crappy like they are the homeless.

 

If Neifi is playing tomorrow, it'll be boo central so Jock doesn't feel left out.

 

he shouldn't be. Dusty said Hairston will be starting at 2b both tues and wed.

 

If he replaces Cedeno, I'll blow a gasket.

[soccer10k]

The boos are because people are tired of seeing crappy players on a Cubs team that needs to continously disassociate themselves with said crappy players, and yet the Cubs keep welcoming in the crappy like they are the homeless.

 

If Neifi is playing tomorrow, it'll be boo central so Jock doesn't feel left out.

 

But that shouldn't happen. If ARam strikes out tomorrow is he going to get booed? No because everyone gives him the benefit of the doubt that he'll turn it around. But if Jacque strikes out tomorrow will people boo him? Probably. Same goes for Neifi. People should either boo everybody or nobody. And as I said before Sosa was booed so don't give me the star player argument.

[Rob]

I have read in this thread,,,, Cubs fans are sick and have higher expectations..... First off, if the players on the field suck so bad (jones, pierre and so on) suck so bad, why do you have higher expectations?

In addition I read we will end the season around .500,,, then why are the exptations again so high?

 

As a fan base, we pump enough money into the system to sell out Wrigley every night and clear the shelves of tons of merchandise. We are supporting a 100 million dollar payroll. When we are putting that kind of money into this team, I believe we have the right to expect the team to perform at a level above .500. That's not to say that we expect to make the playoffs with the team that's getting our 100 million dollars, but that we expect our money to be spent wisely enough to do well on the field.

 

I have read, we know what we were getting with Jones? Uhm, okay so if he is performing the way "we know" we are going to get, why boo him? It seems like booing Hendry would be a better way to display your lack of satisfaction? This is like saying we know we are going to get 20HR, 300AVG and 100RBI's from Murton and then booing him during the season because he is getting them numbers, it don't add up! Pierre had a down year last year and based on 19 games, some Cub fans assume that will continue into this year! Even in a down year, Pierre 50SB, 100R a year is better then anything we have had leading off since EY in his first few years.

 

We "are" booing Hendry. Expressing massive displeasure with his acquisitions combined with the performance of them is the easiest way to buy him a one-way ticket out of town, or at least to show him what we expect of him. Do you notice that nobody is booing Zambrano right now? We aren't upset with him being on this team, despite his struggles. JJ is another story entirely. And just as it is that we wont boo Z, we aren't going to boo Murton for that line either.

 

As for Pierre, I'll agree that he'll be better than the numbers we got last year. But he's not better than anything we've had leading off since EY in his first few years, he's better than last year. CPatt hit .261/.307/.486 out of the leadoff spot in '04 in 250+ AB's, and Walker hit .294/.370/.535 out of the leadoff spot in 250+AB's in '04 also. Pierre couldn't approach those numbers if he played out his ass the rest of the year.

 

Basically I'm reading,, it is okay to boo a player because he is performing as expected,,, Pierre, Jones and so on.... However in ARams case it is not okay to boo him because he is performing (at this time) below expectations becaues he has done it in the past?

 

It's not okay to boo somebody because he is performing just as expected. It's rarely okay at all. But I'll say again, the fans aren't displaying their disgust with the player so much as they are at the front office. It's not like we've got John Rocker out there, who deserved it just for being himself.

 

 

Basically I'm reading. Expectations are high for this team, but everything I read in the thread says it is a 500 team with little chance of going anywere! Why if expectations are so high, why is this a 500 team?

 

We've got an extremely good young core of pitchers and a few position players I'd be hard pressed to move for any reason. There's no reason not to be excited about some of the parts together on this team. Besides, even .500 teams put together some lucky wins and make it into the playoffs.

 

Thanks in advance for responding to the entirety of my post instead of picking out one line you have issue with. :D

[sunnydoo]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

Who all batted leadoff and for how many at bats? If you got your stats from the website, what is the link. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious. I tried to look it up on BP but I couldn't find it.

 

ESPN

 

689 ABs (Breakdown)

 

 

Trans missed the real point on this though....last year 83 runs and 16 total sbs from the #1 slot. So far this year, 14 runs and 7 sbs- which works out to 119 runs and 56 sbs.

 

To me that is a hell of a lot more production, although Pierre's numbers arent quite there yet.

[TruffleShuffle]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

So you're comparing production from 19 games this year to 162 games last year?

 

Chris Shelton must be one of the the best homerun hitters ever. Look out Ruth and Aaron.

 

Yet you've already found a way to attribute Walker's early-season success to having Juan Pierre batting leadoff. Yet another thread where someone mocks sample size, unless it helps them prove their point.

[Tracer Bullet]

Pierre's OBP is .299 right now, I don't think they're batting with runners on all that much more often than 2005.

 

Over 162 games that's an awful lot more.

 

Cubs leadoff spot, 2005: .299 OBP

 

Juan Pierre, 2006: .284 OBP

 

Who all batted leadoff and for how many at bats? If you got your stats from the website, what is the link. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious. I tried to look it up on BP but I couldn't find it.

 

ESPN

 

689 ABs (Breakdown)

 

 

Trans missed the real point on this though....last year 83 runs and 16 total sbs from the #1 slot. So far this year, 14 runs and 7 sbs- which works out to 119 runs and 56 sbs.

 

To me that is a hell of a lot more production, although Pierre's numbers arent quite there yet.

 

If Pierre continues to get on base at a .284 clip, there is no way he will score 120 runs.