Dusty Basically just said Pagan is on the team.

[goonys evil twin]

However, his ST numbers should be useful to compare him against the guys he's competing with for a roster spot (Grissom, Restovich, Theriot, etc...). In that respect, he's got the best numbers, and should be ahead of those guys on the list.

 

No, those numbers don't mean a thing actually. Using them to determine who makes it is just as good as arbitrarily pulling a name out of a hat.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

However, his ST numbers should be useful to compare him against the guys he's competing with for a roster spot (Grissom, Restovich, Theriot, etc...). In that respect, he's got the best numbers, and should be ahead of those guys on the list.

 

No, those numbers don't mean a thing actually. Using them to determine who makes it is just as good as arbitrarily pulling a name out of a hat.

 

They absolutely should count when comparing him to Grissom for a bench spot. It's "what have you done for me lately."

 

ST numbers should have less impact when evaluating Pagan WRT Theriot and Restovich, but if someone shows they can put out when the pressure is on, that has to count for something.

[CubinNY]

However, his ST numbers should be useful to compare him against the guys he's competing with for a roster spot (Grissom, Restovich, Theriot, etc...). In that respect, he's got the best numbers, and should be ahead of those guys on the list.

 

No, those numbers don't mean a thing actually. Using them to determine who makes it is just as good as arbitrarily pulling a name out of a hat.

 

They absolutely should count when comparing him to Grissom for a bench spot. It's "what have you done for me lately."

 

ST numbers should have less impact when evaluating Pagan WRT Theriot and Restovich, but if someone shows they can put out when the pressure is on, that has to count for something.

 

ST counts for so little it is hard to measure.

 

Remember Nomar's spring last year? That is but one example. Half the time these guys are playing against worse players then thay are. As in most area's, size matters.

 

Grissom was on the team to see if he still had anything left. I was painfully obvious he didn't. If he would have put up just a little better numbers he would have made the team.

 

Pagen stinks and has no power. All he has is speed. Restovich stinks but he has power.

 

In instances like these one has to choose between the greater of two 25th man.

[rocket]

If Spring Training numbers are that important, why isn't Scott McClain locked up for 5 years?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

However, his ST numbers should be useful to compare him against the guys he's competing with for a roster spot (Grissom, Restovich, Theriot, etc...). In that respect, he's got the best numbers, and should be ahead of those guys on the list.

 

No, those numbers don't mean a thing actually. Using them to determine who makes it is just as good as arbitrarily pulling a name out of a hat.

 

They absolutely should count when comparing him to Grissom for a bench spot. It's "what have you done for me lately."

 

ST numbers should have less impact when evaluating Pagan WRT Theriot and Restovich, but if someone shows they can put out when the pressure is on, that has to count for something.

 

ST counts for so little it is hard to measure.

 

Remember Nomar's spring last year? That is but one example. Half the time these guys are playing against worse players then thay are. As in most area's, size matters.

 

Grissom was on the team to see if he still had anything left. I was painfully obvious he didn't. If he would have put up just a little better numbers he would have made the team.

 

Pagen stinks and has no power. All he has is speed. Restovich stinks but he has power.

 

In instances like these one has to choose between the greater of two 25th man.

 

Nomar is a beast and hit a slump to start the season after a monster Spring. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that.

 

I thought ST performances don't matter. If so, it doesn't matter what Grissom did this spring. Small sample size. You can't have it both ways.

 

Pagan doesn't "stink." He had one hiccup in his firt full season in AAA. Our scouts seem to like him too. What else do you want? We should only buy high?

 

Restovich can't even play average defense from what I've seen. I'd rather not sub someone into the game and have them blow it with shoddy defense. If you can't rake, you'd darn well better be able to field your position well.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

If Spring Training numbers are that important, why isn't Scott McClain locked up for 5 years?

 

Where did anyone say ST numbers are that important. Strawman alert.

[Soul]

Sing has had a great Spring. Nobody cares :cry:

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Sing has had a great Spring. Nobody cares :cry:

 

Did he get sent to AA or AAA? He's going to rake this year.

[CubinNY]

 

Nomar is a beast and hit a slump to start the season after a monster Spring. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that.

 

He stunk to start the season. That is why ST doesn't matter.

 

I thought ST performances don't matter. If so, it doesn't matter what Grissom did this spring. Small sample size. You can't have it both ways.

They don't which is why he would have made the team if he showed anything this spring.

 

Pagan doesn't "stink." He had one hiccup in his firt full season in AAA. Our scouts seem to like him too. What else do you want? We should only buy high?

.278 .334 .373 and a whopping 15 HRs in five seasons. He stinks.

 

Restovich can't even play average defense from what I've seen. I'd rather not sub someone into the game and have them blow it with shoddy defense. If you can't rake, you'd darn well better be able to field your position well.

 

Pagen is no defensive specialist and he can't hit. What exactly is he good at? Oh, yea he is fast and looks good in a uniform.

 

He

 

Can't

 

Hit

 

He was relseased by the Mets after five subpar seasons.

 

At least Restovich has power.

[rocket]

If Spring Training numbers are that important, why isn't Scott McClain locked up for 5 years?

 

Where did anyone say ST numbers are that important. Strawman alert.

 

Angel Pagan would be a welcome addition to this team. He's played well this spring training and he certainly deserves to be given a shot.

 

Pagan is hitting .360 this spring, and according to Dusty is a switch hitter...I'm sure Restovich could be a solid player but my vote would be for Pagan at this point.

 

Restovich is hitting .257 with 2 HR and 1 2B 5 RBI in 35 AB

Pagan is hitting .360 with 3 HR 3 2B and 6 RBI in 25 AB

Pagan also has 3 SB to Restovich's 1

 

Just thought I'd throw the stats in here.

 

People have been using stats to suggest Pagan make the team, and in this thread people have been debating the usefulness of spring training stats. Just because no one said "ANGEL PAGAN'S SPRING TRAINING NUMBERS ARE VERY VERY IMPORTANT" doesn't make my comment a strawman argument. But people love to use the word strawman, so I guess it will continue to be carelessly thrown into debates.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

If Spring Training numbers are that important, why isn't Scott McClain locked up for 5 years?

 

Where did anyone say ST numbers are that important. Strawman alert.

 

Angel Pagan would be a welcome addition to this team. He's played well this spring training and he certainly deserves to be given a shot.

 

Pagan is hitting .360 this spring, and according to Dusty is a switch hitter...I'm sure Restovich could be a solid player but my vote would be for Pagan at this point.

 

Restovich is hitting .257 with 2 HR and 1 2B 5 RBI in 35 AB

Pagan is hitting .360 with 3 HR 3 2B and 6 RBI in 25 AB

Pagan also has 3 SB to Restovich's 1

 

Just thought I'd throw the stats in here.

 

People have been using stats to suggest Pagan make the team, and in this thread people have been debating the usefulness of spring training stats. Just because no one said "ANGEL PAGAN'S SPRING TRAINING NUMBERS ARE VERY VERY IMPORTANT" doesn't make my comment a strawman argument. But people love to use the word strawman, so I guess it will continue to be carelessly thrown into debates.

 

There's a difference between using ST stats to justify giving a kid a shot in the bigs vs some off the wall statement about McClain being locked up for 5 years.

 

The difference between what people said and the argument you made is astounding. Yes, that's a strawman argument, as you set up some bs statement to represent the opinions of others. Next time don't be so careless. Construct a reasonable argument devoid of ridiculous exaggeration.

[rocket]

Fine.

 

If Spring Training numbers are so important, why not give the bench spot to Scott McClain?

 

The point is exactly the same. Spring Training stats shouldn't have any bearing on who to give a ML job to.

 

Is that a fair representation of everyone else's opinion, according to you?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

 

Nomar is a beast and hit a slump to start the season after a monster Spring. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that.

 

He stunk to start the season. That is why ST doesn't matter.

 

I thought ST performances don't matter. If so, it doesn't matter what Grissom did this spring. Small sample size. You can't have it both ways.

They don't which is why he would have made the team if he showed anything this spring.

 

Pagan doesn't "stink." He had one hiccup in his firt full season in AAA. Our scouts seem to like him too. What else do you want? We should only buy high?

.278 .334 .373 and a whopping 15 HRs in five seasons. He stinks.

 

Restovich can't even play average defense from what I've seen. I'd rather not sub someone into the game and have them blow it with shoddy defense. If you can't rake, you'd darn well better be able to field your position well.

 

Pagen is no defensive specialist and he can't hit. What exactly is he good at? Oh, yea he is fast and looks good in a uniform.

 

He

 

Can't

 

Hit

 

He was relseased by the Mets after five subpar seasons.

 

At least Restovich has power.

 

Pagan has showed more power than Kenny Lofton did in the minors, so I'm not sure why you even brought up HR. He's not going to be on the team to hit HR. Does Pagan = Lofton? Obviously not, but HR aren't everything.

 

Restovich is a butcher, plain and simple. He'd be a DH, but he isn't good enough offensively.

 

Why do you insist on saying ST doesn't matter? You could take a sample size from the 162 games in the regular season for a particular player and make the same argument as everyone goes through highs and lows. The only difference is time and competition. All that is taken into consideration when evaluating a player and his ST numbers.

 

Pagan is fast and isn't going to lose games on defense. He's a bench player, not a starter. You don't stick decent prospects on the bench.

[goonys evil twin]

Nomar is a beast and hit a slump to start the season after a monster Spring. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that.

 

Nomar is a beast? Nomar is a shell of his former self with no chance of being a solid full-time shortstop. His spring training hot streak fooled a lot of people into thinking he was back to his original self.

[Andy]

Nomar is a beast and hit a slump to start the season after a monster Spring. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that.

 

Nomar is a beast? Nomar is a shell of his former self with no chance of being a solid full-time shortstop. His spring training hot streak fooled a lot of people into thinking he was back to his original self.

Who's to say he wouldn't have been over the full season had the Groin Rip not occurred? After all, he started raking when he came back in a much larger sample size of AB's than his pre-injury season.

[Soul]

Sing has had a great Spring. Nobody cares :cry:

 

Did he get sent to AA or AAA? He's going to rake this year.

 

I think it's sad he won't get a shot.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Fine.

 

If Spring Training numbers are so important, why not give the bench spot to Scott McClain?

 

The point is exactly the same. Spring Training stats shouldn't have any bearing on who to give a ML job to.

 

Is that a fair representation of everyone else's opinion, according to you?

 

Why not Scott McClain? He's like 33+ years old and spent less than a year in the bigs. Can you say AAAA? He didn't help himself with his 14 ML ABs last season either. At that age you don't get the benefit of the doubt. He also doesn't play a decent OF, much less all three OF spots. We already have Mabry. DLee isn't going to need a whole lot of games off and Aramis actually looks fit. We don't need another corner IFer.

 

ST stats should have some bearing on who gets a ML job. You reward performance. For those younger guys trying to get a bench spot, it's like a job interview. Come prepared and impress if you can.

 

I don't need to represent everyone's opinion, if there is a singular opinion representing the group's thoughts. I simply said your characterization of a popular opinion did not exist.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Sing has had a great Spring. Nobody cares :cry:

 

Did he get sent to AA or AAA? He's going to rake this year.

 

I think it's sad he won't get a shot.

 

A shot at what? Rotting on the bench? It's a blessing in disguise, career-wise.

[Jehrico]

However, his ST numbers should be useful to compare him against the guys he's competing with for a roster spot (Grissom, Restovich, Theriot, etc...). In that respect, he's got the best numbers, and should be ahead of those guys on the list.

 

No, those numbers don't mean a thing actually. Using them to determine who makes it is just as good as arbitrarily pulling a name out of a hat.

 

No, it's not. ST stats are good measures of who can handle competing against major leaguers. Some young guys have the ability, but can't handle the pressure. Some aren't affected. ST stats are about as useful as a similar period of minor league performance, which also doesn't necessarily correlate to major league performance (see Choi, Hill, et al). But it's not useless when determining if a young guy is ready enough to be given a chance.

[Jehrico]

Sing has had a great Spring. Nobody cares :cry:

 

I would have preferred him over Restovich as a PH outfielder with power.

[goonys evil twin]

Nomar is a beast and hit a slump to start the season after a monster Spring. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that.

 

Nomar is a beast? Nomar is a shell of his former self with no chance of being a solid full-time shortstop. His spring training hot streak fooled a lot of people into thinking he was back to his original self.

Who's to say he wouldn't have been over the full season had the Groin Rip not occurred? After all, he started raking when he came back in a much larger sample size of AB's than his pre-injury season.

 

Who's to say Patterson wouldn't have become a hall of famer if he came up with some other organization? Nomar is done as a star SS. His spring was not indicative of what his regular season could be. The point is spring numbers are meaningless.

[Yeti]

JH just said that "pagan will likely make the club" (in an interview with kennedy and dibbs on XM

[goonys evil twin]

ST stats are good measures of who can handle competing against major leaguers.

 

No, they don't. Just because you say it enough doesn't make it true. Spring training stats are not close to a good measure of how a guy can handle competing against major leaguers. Much of the time you aren't even facing major leaguers. Another good chunk of the time your facing guys who aren't in game shape. And further more, hits in Arizona are not the same as hits in most major league parks. The numbers are meaningless. Good spring training numbers do not tell you if a guy can do anything good for your major league team. It's a bad way to make personel decisions.

[Jehrico]

 

Nomar is a beast and hit a slump to start the season after a monster Spring. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that.

 

He stunk to start the season. That is why ST doesn't matter.

 

 

Regardless of how Sandberg always did in ST, he almost always stunk in April. What's the point?

 

 

Using ST to evaluate vets with track records is useless, they're track record speakers volumes more and is much more reliable. Minor league experience doesn't translate to major league success much better than ST. So if you're trying to choose a couple of 22-24 year olds with no major league experience, I don't see why ST can't play a part in it. Everyone wants to see Marshall get a shot based on his spring. What if he had an ERA over 9.00 for the spring so far? Denying Pagan because of the low correlation between ST numbers and MLB numbers is hypocrisy if you think Marshall, Guzman, or Hill deserve a shot based on their spring performances.

[Soul]

Sing has had a great Spring. Nobody cares :cry:

 

Did he get sent to AA or AAA? He's going to rake this year.

 

I think it's sad he won't get a shot.

 

A shot at what? Rotting on the bench? It's a blessing in disguise, career-wise.

 

I know. I don't argue it. I just like him. I hope he does well in the future on a team we never play 8)